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4/7/2019 11:04:34   
Cyber Dream
Member

The main purpose of this thread will be to discuss and help balance passives/cores and how they correlate with each other, while also discussing the relevancy of skills and cores that were added in place of passives no longer being a thing.
AQW Epic  Post #: 1
4/9/2019 21:16:14   
.Lord Ginger.
Member

Although this may hurt some legendary bosses (which can just be tweaked honestly)

Having the +6 cores are basically a must, and most people put them on technology, these cores are basically the #1 passive cores in the game and something should be done about this.

The other cores such as the +defense/resistance cores are a must for armor if they aren't stacked by a technology core, This definitely decreases the amount of cores used in battles which I think should be fixed.

Deadly aim - Seems weak, maybe have it be based off the damage the sidearm would do, not the sidearm damage itself. (Right now it's like 350*.2 = 70 is the damage you'd get at level 10)

Edit: Or possibly make them flat values how they used to be to still allow a tanky-ish strength cyber - same with mercenary and tactical, and then blood mage gun can still be good even if they decide to do a lower dex build (such as strength)

< Message edited by .Lord Ginger. -- 4/9/2019 21:18:21 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 2
4/9/2019 21:59:37   
sippingcider
Member

Definately agree that deadly aim needs a buff, seems like a really bad passive compared to the others.

Mage is a little dangerous having 3 passives then, but I think right now mage is weakest so it is ok if it gets buffed.
Post #: 3
4/10/2019 0:08:28   
NDB
Member

  • Deadly Aim: I agree that it badly needs a buff in one way or another, especially because gun is just not a very strong attack for any build these days since Dex is severely underpowered. I might even go as far as to say it should also buff aux, too, since Tech Mage is really faltering now. But obviously, if we find a way to buff Dex, it's probably fine. I'd propose that Dex should have an additional effect, such as Agility (yes, I know it used to be based on Health), where having a Dex advantage increases both your base defense by a small percentage and/or lower your opponent's. Or something else dynamic, like that, that would make the stat objectively more useful than it is now rather than just buffing block scaling like NW did a couple weeks ago. And, of course, we could always use some more skills that Scale with Dex -- perhaps Cyber Hunter Poison or Malfunction, or Mercenary Blood Commander or something might be quite interesting since those classes don't have any Dex skills currently.

  • Hybrid/Mineral/Plasma Armor: I wish the armors returned to flat values because they are extremely awkward to use now since lopsided defenses are not favorable, but the only way to make the shield good is to do that. This is especially true for Cyber Hunter. Also, the % makes it so no build except focus or tank builds can use them, which has effectively killed off any strength or support build for the classes that have them since it's hard to compete when they're only giving you 20 defense.

  • Shadow Arts: I actually really liked the concept of Shadow Arts as an active. I would argue for it to return to that since block % is not a tangible benefit, hardly a strategy, and everyone I know abhors luck anyway. I feel like the old Shadow Arts would help Cyber Hunter focus a lot which currently isn't doing too well as it is.

  • Adrenaline: Adrenaline sounds nice on paper, but rarely has any meaningful impact on the battle. It's just an awkward concept, really, and the active version was not too much better. If Static Smash gets nerfed real hard, which I feel it should along with Static Grenade and possibly Parasite, Mercenary would likely be underpowered like it was back in Delta due to Adrenaline being so bad. I think a better concept would be to be 10% defense ignore at Max level or something along those lines, or maybe keep it the same % as now but change the effect to ignore more defense on Rage.

  • Bloodlust: Its really, really good, but still, its fine, I guess (wow, that was a lot of commas). The only thing I would say is that I don't like how Bounty Hunter Massacre and Blood Mage Supercharge just had their health gain effect stripped from them. If we want to diversify all classes' skills, we should re-invent these skills to fit with their skill trees again. For now, a slight damage buff for these skills would probably do (mayber 40% defense ignore for Blood Mage Supercharge), though, just so they aren't just worse versions of Cyber Hunter's and Tech Mage's. I mean, for Blood Mage, Supercharge is absolutely garbage compared to Plasma Cannon now; the only thing going for it before was just its health gain. On the flip side, I'm inclined to say that Cyber Hunter Massacre needs to have its health gain effect buffed to 30% and have Tech Mage Supercharge have 40% health gain but only 20% defense ignore. That would make it so these ultimates are better designed for their respective classes' needs.

  • Reroute: It's weird. It some ways it was a nerf, in some ways it was a buff. I wouldn't change it for now.

  • General: The requirements on a lot of the passives should be looked at. They are unchanged from 2013 and a lot of them are really high.

  • Other comments about the balance brought about by passives: Tech Mage is the only class without a shield or Bloodlust, making a punching bag just like it was in Delta when it was almost as underpowered as Mercenary. Tech Mage desperately needs a major power buff to counter shields/blood lust or a defensive buff to make up for not having either of them. To do this, I think Malfunction needs to be buffed for focus builds. It's hardly useable in its current state. I feel like Defense Matrix also needs a serious buff, which would also help Cyber Hunters. Maybe even make it last four turns. It was undeservingly nerfed a few months ago. Technician, I think, should also scale 3 points per level, like Reflex Boost, to make it better. Overall, Tech Mage just needs a much better way to defend itself like in the old days. However, I think Assimilation should eventually be moved back to 4 turn cooldown and slightly nerfed, but return to 100% damage. It was never meant to be this good of an energy-manipulating skill back when Tech Mages were already the only class that could control energy, and it shouldn't be anymore if Static Smash/Grenade are nerfed. And if those were to be nerfed, add Atom Smasher to the list, too. At this point, EMP Grenade is fine (doesn't necessarily need a buff); it's Atom that feels slightly too good now, now that it's harder to gain energy, and should at least have its cooldown pushed back to 4. And Tactical Mercenary, as it is, is extremely good due to the way its skill tree synergizes anyway. That's a good thing, though, and I don't want Tacticals to be nerfed in other ways for now.

    Also, just going to put it out there: Multis need to be buffed. 2v2 strongly favors tank builds now, and almost exclusively the three shield classes since they are difficult to target and have the potential to Jugg should your partner die. We need to bring back some of the craziness in 2v2, I guess.

  • Spirit Meld: This thing is downright broken. It's a lovely concept and I applaud whoever came up with it, but it needs a cap and the drawback may need to be bigger. Usually, people pull it out near the end of the battle when they are out of energy and the game isn't going to last many more rounds. The 5 turn defense debuff doesn't hurt them very much in that case. I propose that it be capped at 500 Energy and the defense debuff be increase to 20% for 3 turns. I don't know if that'll fix it, but the point remains: something needs to be done about it. It would also help tremendously if the ultimate skills had their cooldowns increased to 4, or even 5 to prevent instant looping with the core, and instant looping in general.

  • Screaming Soul Spears: This needs to do 100% damage or something. Otherwise, you guys aren't going to be milking the cash you wanted from making it Varium-only.

    A whole bunch of other cores are pretty broken, obviously, but there's too much to deal with right now to worry about every little thing. I do wish, however, that there were more cores that can be used multiple times per battle instead of these crazy powerful one-time use things. That'd be a good way to increase build and strategy possibilities and give cores the function that they were always advertised to do -- be a way to make your custom skill tree by being like actual skills. That's why I like the concept for Botanical Hazard and Massive Strike. They becomes part of your build and really sort of created a new style of gameplay that didn't exist before. They are dynamic. They aren't just a situational tool like most cores are now, or a one-time hack like Health Booster, or a disgusting luck boost like 90% of the passive cores that don't give stats.

    < Message edited by NDB -- 4/10/2019 1:19:03 >
  • Epic  Post #: 4
    4/10/2019 0:57:41   
    Emperor_Blitz
    Member

    Hybrid, Mineral, and Plasma armor all need to be changed to flat values.

    Make the gun damage scale off of strength, it's too under whelming on dexterity part of the reason being dexterity is under-powered. Buff support slightly..

    Give BH EMP they shouldn't have Static Grenade. Mercenaries shouldn't have Static Smash they should have Atom Smasher like before. For Blood Mage remove Energy Parasite in exchange for Assimilation or just give them Bludgeon back. Assimilation also needs a buff to 100% damage possibly make it a 4 turn cool down.

    Remove energy gain from Frenzy, make it like the original Frenzy.

    Some of these cores need to go and so do energy costs on cores.

    Nerf smokescreen level 6 is like -60 dexterity (If they have a decent amount of tech) which is ridiculous next turn you get hawked and have fun winning because your dead within the next 2-3 turns.

    Fix the "Not Secure" on Epicduel as well one of my friends wants to play but refuses to until it gets fixed.

    Remove x10 haha

    https://imgur.com/a/x7lpyIz



    < Message edited by Emperor_Blitz -- 4/10/2019 2:31:57 >
    Epic  Post #: 5
    4/10/2019 8:29:01   
    Foulman
    Member

    Shadow Arts as a 10% passive damage reduction?
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 6
    4/10/2019 9:14:47   
    NDB
    Member

    @Emperor_Blitz
    Huh. I forgot Frenzy used to be 57% at max. Yeah, that could definitely work seeing as Tacticals are so good. But, still, maybe only if the other energy manipulation skills are nerfed a bit first or else it'd probably completely kill the entire class... Including assimilation, since Tech Mages are, surprisingly, one of the biggest foils to Tactical at the moment despite being an underpowered class in general.

    I don't agree with moving gun to Strength, despite what people say. It would be the last straw for Dex as a viable stat and would unnecessarily nerf all tank and caster builds. It wouldn't even improve the damage at all for Focus builds. The only thing it would buff are Strength builds, and not in an amazingly fantastic way either. It would give them a much needed option to switch between Physical or Energy but that would just kill shielding even more, which is already so dead now seeing as half the classes had one of their active shields removed and Defense Matrix was nerfed a few months back. If anything, I would opt for Phase Shift to have its energy cost reduced to zero instead and call it day.

    @Foulman
    I was thinking that, too, but it would be a huge buff for the classes that have it. It's a much better idea than block%, for sure, but we might need to tweak things like Smoke to prevent BH from being overkill, and something for CH too if the drain skills are nerfed. But, yeah, they really ought to consider it because the way Shadow Arts is now is just terrible, both as a skill and as a concept.

    < Message edited by NDB -- 4/10/2019 9:40:28 >
    Epic  Post #: 7
    4/10/2019 11:13:24   
    sippingcider
    Member

    quote:

    Deadly Aim: I agree that it badly needs a buff in one way or another, especially because gun is just not a very strong attack for any build these days since Dex is severely underpowered. I might even go as far as to say it should also buff aux, too, since Tech Mage is really faltering now. But obviously, if we find a way to buff Dex, it's probably fine. I'd propose that Dex should have an additional effect, such as Agility (yes, I know it used to be based on Health), where having a Dex advantage increases both your base defense by a small percentage and/or lower your opponent's. Or something else dynamic, like that, that would make the stat objectively more useful than it is now rather than just buffing block scaling like NW did a couple weeks ago. And, of course, we could always use some more skills that Scale with Dex -- perhaps Cyber Hunter Poison or Malfunction, or Mercenary Blood Commander or something might be quite interesting since those classes don't have any Dex skills currently.

    Hybrid/Mineral/Plasma Armor: I wish the armors returned to flat values because they are extremely awkward to use now since lopsided defenses are not favorable, but the only way to make the shield good is to do that. This is especially true for Cyber Hunter. Also, the % makes it so no build except focus or tank builds can use them, which has effectively killed off any strength or support build for the classes that have them since it's hard to compete when they're only giving you 20 defense.

    Shadow Arts: I actually really liked the concept of Shadow Arts as an active. I would argue for it to return to that since block % is not a tangible benefit, hardly a strategy, and everyone I know abhors luck anyway. I feel like the old Shadow Arts would help Cyber Hunter focus a lot which currently isn't doing too well as it is.

    Adrenaline: Adrenaline sounds nice on paper, but rarely has any meaningful impact on the battle. It's just an awkward concept, really, and the active version was not too much better. If Static Smash gets nerfed real hard, which I feel it should along with Static Grenade and possibly Parasite, Mercenary would likely be underpowered like it was back in Delta due to Adrenaline being so bad. I think a better concept would be to be 10% defense ignore at Max level or something along those lines, or maybe keep it the same % as now but change the effect to ignore more defense on Rage.

    Bloodlust: Its really, really good, but still, its fine, I guess (wow, that was a lot of commas). The only thing I would say is that I don't like how Bounty Hunter Massacre and Blood Mage Supercharge just had their health gain effect stripped from them. If we want to diversify all classes' skills, we should re-invent these skills to fit with their skill trees again. For now, a slight damage buff for these skills would probably do (mayber 40% defense ignore for Blood Mage Supercharge), though, just so they aren't just worse versions of Cyber Hunter's and Tech Mage's. I mean, for Blood Mage, Supercharge is absolutely garbage compared to Plasma Cannon now; the only thing going for it before was just its health gain. On the flip side, I'm inclined to say that Cyber Hunter Massacre needs to have its health gain effect buffed to 30% and have Tech Mage Supercharge have 40% health gain but only 20% defense ignore. That would make it so these ultimates are better designed for their respective classes' needs.

    Reroute: It's weird. It some ways it was a nerf, in some ways it was a buff. I wouldn't change it for now.

    General: The requirements on a lot of the passives should be looked at. They are unchanged from 2013 and a lot of them are really high.

    Other comments about the balance brought about by passives: Tech Mage is the only class without a shield or Bloodlust, making a punching bag just like it was in Delta when it was almost as underpowered as Mercenary. Tech Mage desperately needs a major power buff to counter shields/blood lust or a defensive buff to make up for not having either of them. To do this, I think Malfunction needs to be buffed for focus builds. It's hardly useable in its current state. I feel like Defense Matrix also needs a serious buff, which would also help Cyber Hunters. Maybe even make it last four turns. It was undeservingly nerfed a few months ago. Technician, I think, should also scale 3 points per level, like Reflex Boost, to make it better. Overall, Tech Mage just needs a much better way to defend itself like in the old days. However, I think Assimilation should eventually be moved back to 4 turn cooldown and slightly nerfed, but return to 100% damage. It was never meant to be this good of an energy-manipulating skill back when Tech Mages were already the only class that could control energy, and it shouldn't be anymore if Static Smash/Grenade are nerfed. And if those were to be nerfed, add Atom Smasher to the list, too. At this point, EMP Grenade is fine (doesn't necessarily need a buff); it's Atom that feels slightly too good now, now that it's harder to gain energy, and should at least have its cooldown pushed back to 4. And Tactical Mercenary, as it is, is extremely good due to the way its skill tree synergizes anyway. That's a good thing, though, and I don't want Tacticals to be nerfed in other ways for now.

    Also, just going to put it out there: Multis need to be buffed. 2v2 strongly favors tank builds now, and almost exclusively the three shield classes since they are difficult to target and have the potential to Jugg should your partner die. We need to bring back some of the craziness in 2v2, I guess.

    Spirit Meld: This thing is downright broken. It's a lovely concept and I applaud whoever came up with it, but it needs a cap and the drawback may need to be bigger. Usually, people pull it out near the end of the battle when they are out of energy and the game isn't going to last many more rounds. The 5 turn defense debuff doesn't hurt them very much in that case. I propose that it be capped at 500 Energy and the defense debuff be increase to 20% for 3 turns. I don't know if that'll fix it, but the point remains: something needs to be done about it. It would also help tremendously if the ultimate skills had their cooldowns increased to 4, or even 5 to prevent instant looping with the core, and instant looping in general.

    Screaming Soul Spears: This needs to do 100% damage or something. Otherwise, you guys aren't going to be milking the cash you wanted from making it Varium-only.

    A whole bunch of other cores are pretty broken, obviously, but there's too much to deal with right now to worry about every little thing. I do wish, however, that there were more cores that can be used multiple times per battle instead of these crazy powerful one-time use things. That'd be a good way to increase build and strategy possibilities and give cores the function that they were always advertised to do -- be a way to make your custom skill tree by being like actual skills. That's why I like the concept for Botanical Hazard and Massive Strike. They becomes part of your build and really sort of created a new style of gameplay that didn't exist before. They are dynamic. They aren't just a situational tool like most cores are now, or a one-time hack like Health Booster, or a disgusting luck boost like 90% of the passive cores that don't give stats.


    I....agree with all of this? The one thing I would leave out would be the nerf to Spirit Meld (I want to try this bad boy out while its in its OP state :P) Otherwise, nice post, mirrors what I view of balance right now.
    Post #: 8
    4/10/2019 11:50:08   
    .Lord Ginger.
    Member

    ^ Just quoting all of that is kind of spam and isn't needed at all.

    All things aside, I do think that reroute is in a fine state right now, and although BH is a pretty solid class, a nerf to smoke (because it's really good, let's BH get more HP with Blood Lust, makes them block more, AND decreases a range attacks damage - is really broken with how strong this is) would be fine coupled with a change to shadow arts.

    Kind of off topic but, Smoke still goes up by 5 points from level 5 to 6 which makes like 0 incentive to have it on 5, or anything past 6.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 9
    4/10/2019 12:35:34   
    ForsakenDemon
    Member

    @NDB

    I agree, the passive armors should be flat values. But Hybrid Armor needs a buff. Originally, the skill gave +60 def/ +50 res; this isn't enough at lvl 40. Maybe when the cap was lvl 35 was this enough, but not anymore. I suggest HA max out at +70 def/ +65 res.

    Also, cybers need shadow arts, but giving it bounties might be too much. Especially if SA still reduces damage by 30% (which is ridiculous). They'll just regain whatever health they lost.
    Post #: 10
    4/10/2019 21:28:42   
    Foulman
    Member

    Would flat value passive armour skills just be a huge buff to high HP/stat abuse builds? Especially with Spirit Meld. I've also noticed just how powerful BH smoke/hawk is rn, along with the high energy/Spirit melders. And do we really need to have the same Shadow Arts for both Hunters?

    < Message edited by Foulman -- 4/11/2019 2:18:03 >
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 11
    4/10/2019 21:55:06   
    .Lord Ginger.
    Member

    ^ Yeah, that's kinda the point, but it also helps the focus people too...

    Yes, spirit meld needs a nerf.

    And for shadow arts, yeah I guess not, but currently we're just trying to balance some stuff out for now - but I guess they can be diff, no problem with that.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 12
    4/11/2019 2:23:02   
    Foulman
    Member

    i dunno, STR/HP seems a little overwhelming right now, but I suppose that's the only high hp build that still runs around. As for SA, what about damage reduction to energy as a new effect?
    AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 13
    4/12/2019 11:12:20   
    .Lord Ginger.
    Member

    Can we actually talk about the +6 core epidemic? It's pretty ridiculous and I think we should do something about them... If you go into a 2v2, everyone has at least 2 of these cores, and most of them have 3, 99% of the time its the +6 tech core.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 14
    4/12/2019 15:22:31   
    Emperor_Blitz
    Member

    I've never liked the +6 cores personally think they should've been removed a long time ago. I also think legend points should be removed all together and people get refunded for the ones they bought or enable them only for PvE.

    < Message edited by Emperor_Blitz -- 4/12/2019 15:48:27 >
    Epic  Post #: 15
    4/12/2019 17:12:57   
    ForsakenDemon
    Member

    @.Lord Ginger.

    Then what do you suggest we do about the +6 core? Get rid of it? Nerf it?

    The core could give +3, and players will still be rocking it.
    It impacts the battle in many ways: a +6 tech boost improves your bot damage, skill damage, nets you health that otherwise would've been lost (from energy attacks), and perhaps sways the chance of deflection in your favor.

    If core diversity is your goal, then nerfs won't do much.

    < Message edited by ForsakenDemon -- 4/12/2019 17:13:20 >
    Post #: 16
    4/12/2019 18:17:30   
    Mother1
    Member

    Tech mages after the passive to active change need a buff seeing as they are the only class who wasn't buffed indirectly or by not removing something that wasn't there.

    BH= got their passives back but instead of getting rid of static grenade and having back EMP grenade got to keep the static grenade = BH is now a hp and energy class.
    BM= got to keep Energy parasite at the expense of Bludgeon. End result same as BH meaning they are now a duel HP/Energy class instead of just being one like before.
    Merc= Hybrid armor got a buff making them more tanky in both Defense and resist
    CH = Plasma armor got a buff making them better energy tanks.
    TLM =Mineral armor got a buff making them better defense tanks.

    Tech mage however got none of this and is the only class that is as it was prior to the first passive to active change. How Nightwraith overlooked this I don't know but either

    A) Remove Energy parasite, Static grenade, and all the buffs to passive armors that was given and revert things back to the way they were prior so Tech mage isn't at the bottom of the barrel due to buffing all the other classes

    or

    B) find a way to buff TM so they can compete with the other classes

    because as it stands now as pointed out Tech mage is the only class that was put back exactly the way it was prior to the first passive to active change and because of it they are behind the other classes.
    Epic  Post #: 17
    4/12/2019 23:30:12   
    .Lord Ginger.
    Member

    Taking away the +6 cores would be nice. They were broken when they were charge cores, and they're still broken...and now permanent.

    Edit: The fact that you can have 3 tech boosts is pretty dumb...
    AQW Epic  Post #: 18
    4/13/2019 8:46:15   
    Mother1
    Member

    .lord ginger.

    They weren't too bad when they were limited to one specific piece of equipment. It was when they were made stackable for all pieces of equipment that they became a piece of work. This only made spam builds even worse since they could get up to 24 stats in specific area instead of just 6.
    Epic  Post #: 19
    7/29/2019 16:41:26   
    Armagedon2018
    Member

    Do you suggest that those cores are not stackable for all equipment? I doubt that can be removed from the game.
    AQW Epic  Post #: 20
    7/29/2019 21:25:44   
    .Lord Ginger.
    Member

    Yeah, that's all right. People can have the core they want in what deem the most insignificant, i they decide to still use them.

    < Message edited by .Lord Ginger. -- 7/29/2019 21:26:04 >
    AQW Epic  Post #: 21
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