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The HP Cost Update

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2/26/2020 15:41:41   
gavers
Member
 

 After the HP cost update a couple of issues arose with the HP costs, I have them listed below:

1. Post-sweep HP costs on Bloodmage equipment is incorrect, costing 125% Melee (436 HP) instead of 100% Melee (348 HP).

2. Some HP items don't use the new standard (Bloodzerker Armors, Angel of Souls, Burst Spells...)

3. The two guests, Grimlord of Nulgath, and Mogsterio currently cost 96 HP, and 480 HP once every 5 turns, respectively,
however based on the new standard, they get +100% of their damage, which equals 60% Melee, which means they should cost 209 HP, and 1045 HP every 5 turns, respectively.
Since this is an absurd cost I suggest one of the two following solutions:

- Since both of them break the HP cost limit of +15% Melee per turn (excluding MC), scale
back their damage boost from +100% to +33.3% making them in line with the rest of the blood cost items.

- Since flat HP costs have a counter synergy with the FD playstyle, which is more often played with guests, I suggest a damage amp similar to Zealot's Wrath, Magna Blade, and Agony's Embrace, which is still balanced in the void, but complements those builds much better.

4. Hyperalphean Fang costs now 600 HP, even though the price was arbitrarily set at 200 HP, so setting it back to 200 sounds reasonable.
Post #: 1
2/26/2020 16:04:01   
Lord Markov
Member

Hard agree here. Even at this new "nerfed" cost of 480 HP for Mogsterio it only takes 3 unlucky turns for him to be halfway to killing you. If he and Grimlord are further nerfed to be brought properly in line it'll be even worse. While he could be left alone for use by a "chaos" build, given the fact our selection of light guests is extremely limited it would be nice for him not to be relegated to a corner forever. A damage reduction accompanied by an appropriate HP cost reduction would be extremely good. Grimlord is less of an issue since he isn't RNG based and there are a lot more darkness guests to choose from, but consistency here would be nice.

Hope staff will take a look at this and consider making some changes here.
AQ  Post #: 2
2/26/2020 17:32:52   
Andlu
Member

I wholeheartedly think that the guests should stay as they are right now, with the new updated costs of 96 HP for grimlord and 480 HP for mogsterio. That amount is probably the sweet spot to leave guests costs at, while still maintaining their damage at desirable levels to compete with boosters
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 3
2/26/2020 19:50:17   
Thor
Member

I agree Andlu, it seems harsh as it is now but now too harsh to be unplayable and they compete well with boosters right now
AQ AQW  Post #: 4
2/26/2020 21:32:52   
lolerster
Member
 

 I'm not entirely sure I quite understand the new blood standard. Not saying they shouldn't have been nerfed (they 100% should), just inconsistent.

1. Bloodzerker armors gains 20% damage, at the cost of 25% melee SP (87 hp@level 150)
2. If you are using a melee weapon, for a cost of 99 SP per attack (or 25% melee in SP), you lock yourself into fire damage to deal x2 damage.
3. If you are using a magic weapon, you gain the same cost as above, but it costs 246 SP, which is 50% melee, * 1.25 for being magic.
4. Toggling costs no additional HP. I guess the elecomp is the reduced cost.

Anyone else thinks this makes no sense?


Now, let's compare that to Bloodmage

1. For Bloodmage skill or any damaging spell cast in Blood mage, gain 50% melee in damage, then *2 for being a spell.
2. You pay cost equal to 436 hp, or 125% melee, which means you are paying cost for the 2x damage of a spell, which Bloodzerker is not paying.


And then we have bloodzerker/bloodmancer blades which costs:
1. Costs 52 hp (15% melee) for 15% damage per attack, +20% in magic mode.


I dunno, maybe I got something really wrong here, but this seems to be costed very inconsistently.

Again, I would like to say that the nerf is a POSITIVE change in my view. However, it does seem to be very inconsistent in the way that it's costed.


@Thor: I think that has less to do with how the blood guests than how strong boosters are.

< Message edited by lolerster -- 2/26/2020 21:37:39 >
AQ  Post #: 5
2/26/2020 23:27:29   
Primate Murder
Member

I fully agree on #1, and mostly agree on #4 (according to previosly set standards, a 1 turn -40 Fragile at 50/50 save is worth 40% melee or 139 hp). As for #2 - it seems the staff simply didn't get around to updating every single item yet, it's just a matter of time.


I do disagree with the numbers in #3 - if anything, the costs are too high.

Standards presume a pure 0-Cha build, which makes the guests deal 30% damage at somewhere around 70-ish % accuracy - which is reflected in their cost, 21.875% melee. When guest damage is doubled, the player pays double the upkeep, not 60% extra - as seen via items like Doomquake Minions or BoW. This means that the upkeep of Grimlord/Mogterio should be worth 76 hp and 381 hp, respectively. Instead, the costs are multiplied by an additional *1.25, same as with the Bloodmage.
AQ DF  Post #: 6
2/27/2020 3:26:50   
ruleandrew
Member
 

 HP Cost update will make the role of END more importance.

Burst spells will deal +100% melee unit for 100% melee cost (hp).

Assume: 250 INT, 250 DEX and 250 LUCK
Monster hp: 20 units
Number of monster turns to kill player: 20
Damage logic: (2+1)*4+(0.75+0.375)*64/9
Number of player turns: 4+(64/9): 100/9
Number of spell casts: 4+(64/9)/(8/3): 20/3

Level 150 player test: 147.9*(100/9)+198*(20/3)
Level 150 player hp (0 END): 2958

Therefore 100% melee cost (level 150) is 198 hp.

< Message edited by ruleandrew -- 2/27/2020 3:31:32 >
AQ  Post #: 7
2/27/2020 5:46:41   
lolerster
Member
 

 Wait, burst/blood spells have been/will be changed to deal +100% melee?
AQ  Post #: 8
2/27/2020 6:44:02   
gavers
Member
 

 @Primate Murder
quote:

Standards presume a pure 0-Cha build, which makes the guests deal 30% damage at somewhere around 70-ish % accuracy - which is reflected in their cost, 21.875% melee. When guest damage is doubled, the player pays double the upkeep, not 60% extra - as seen via items like Doomquake Minions or BoW. This means that the upkeep of Grimlord/Mogterio should be worth 76 hp and 381 hp, respectively. Instead, the costs are multiplied by an additional *1.25, same as with the Bloodmage.


Do you have a source on the assumptions for guest balance?
If it's true, this means guests, unlike any other form of damage in the game, are assumed to operate at 0 STAT, making them very blatantly OP, but that's an entirely different discussion so I won't go into it here.
Post #: 9
2/27/2020 11:20:36   
Primate Murder
Member

@ gavers

So I checked all my sources and couldn't find the formula, which probably means it's something I saw in the Q&A section. Given that the post's long gone now, I won't push too hard on this.

That said, the numbers check out. Outside of a few niche items like Sol Neko and Moglin Fan, pretty much everything in the game treats your Cha as 0, so by actually training it instead of an expected stat you incur a number of in-build penalties. E.g. By training Cha in place of Str, you loose 50% melee damage from attacks, but gain 20% via pet damage +30% via guest damage.

Either way, as you pointed out, it's a different discussion entirely. For this thread's purposes I'm just pointing out the irregularity regarding the hp cost on guests.
AQ DF  Post #: 10
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