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Master Soulweaver needs a rework

 
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5/14/2021 22:09:45   
Kyros123
Member
 

Now I'm not usually one to post suggestion threads but from my recent experiences I've noticed Master Soulweaver has been lagging behind the other tier 3 classes in viability (and I don't just mean Inn Challenges, I mean actual story quests). So below is a description of all MSW skills and what I'd think can be done to improve them.

Reckoning

Effect: 14 hits of 25% damage for a total of 350% damage.

Mana Cost: 35
Cooldown: 15
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

Your basic nuke skill, every class has them one, high burst damage in exchange for a high cooldown. Doesn't really require changing.


Soul Seal

Effect: 2 hits of 90% damage for a total of 180% damage; if successful, applies 'Sealed Power' (-25 Bonus, -40 Boost) to target for 5 turns.

Mana Cost: 35
Cooldown: 9
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

Mainly used to reduce incoming damage, use to improve survivability in boss fights. The -25 Bonus doesn't really do much and I thought the -40 Boost was a bit on the low side until I realized you can stack it with the -30 Boost from Soul Vacuum (listed down below). Still I'd prefer if it was brought up to -50 Boost or if the cooldown was lowered or if it lasted longer than 5 turns but there's enough of an argument to justify no changing it.


Soul Lock

Effect: 1 hit of 135% damage and stuns target for 3 turns.

Mana Cost: 30
Cooldown: 14
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

Stuns are in a weird position in DF in that they're either extremely overpowered or completely useless with no in-between. Having a 3 turn head start over your opponent pretty much guarantees victory so much so that the enemies you actually want to use stuns on pretty much all have have 300 immobility resist. On par with almost every other classes stun so no changing required.


Meditation

Effect: Recovers 15% of player Max Mana.

Mana Cost: 0
Cooldown: 8
Element: N/A
Attack Type: N/A

A more unique still (not many classes have MP recovery skills) and can keep MSW feasible during longer quests but ultimately inferior to just bringing extra MP potions and Technomancer's Mana Eruption (which actually does a good amount of damage).


Valor Impact

Effect: 3 hits of 80% damage for a total of 240% damage with +200 Crit.

Mana Cost: 25
Cooldown: 4
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

You're basic triple hit skill requiring Soul Pierce to unlock but with chance to crit. Decent but I've noticed not immediately using it can cause the skill to relock, limiting flexibility if you want to use another skill.


Soul Pierce

Effect: 1 hit of 150% damage with +250 Bonus.

Mana Cost: 20
Cooldown: 2
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

The second most useless skill MSW has since it only boosts bonus for the single attack. That and it actually requires a hit to actually unlock meaning you can't use it on demand when a monster increases avoidance. It skill could only be viable if it didn't require a hit to unlock and increased bonus to hit for a number of turns.


Soul Aegis

Effect: +200 Melee Def/Pierce Def/Magic Def to player for 2 turns.

Mana Cost: 25
Cooldown: 6
Element: N/A
Attack Type: N/A

Your basic shield skill. Inferior to some other tier 3 classes shields due to only 2 turns instead of 3 but it can be used in conjunction with Soul Banish. to create a 5 turn gap where you're basically untouchable. The downside of all shield skills in the game is that most bosses nowadays have a insta-kill nuke which you pretty much have to save your shield for.


Repentance

Effect: 10 hits of 25% damage for a total of 250% damage; if successful, applies 'Sorrow', a 100% weapon damage Melee DoT, to target for 4 turns.

Mana Cost: 60
Cooldown: 9
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

Decent damage and DoT. No changing required.


Purge

Effect: Removes all effects on you.

Mana Cost: 30
Cooldown: 4
Element: N/A
Attack Type: N/A

The most useless skill Master Soulweaver has and arguably the most useless skill in the entire game. Not a bad skill in concept but enemies that apply negative effects are either 1. Mooks who it's easier to just kill to end the battle since all negative effects disappear when battle ends (and thus not worth wasting a turn to purge the negative effect) or 2. Bosses who are guarantied to just reapply the negative effect the next turn effectively making you waste a turn. Add to the fact that this skill also purges positive effects and you have the most worthless skill in the game. This skill could be viable it it actually prevented negative effects from being applied to you for a set number of turns while not preventing positive effects but as it is it's too niche to be worth using and even worse, it doesn't even fulfill the need of it's specific niche.


Soul Banish

Effect: 2 hits of 50% damage for a total of 100% damage. Applies 'Banished', a Magic None DoT to the value of the target's HP at the start of the turn, to the target, (Pop-up: Foe banished!), reliant on the following criteria:
If your foe's Max HP is greater than 5 times your Max HP, Soul Banishment will activate if your foe has less than or equal to 5% of their Max HP.
If your foe's Max HP is between 3 and 5 times your Max HP, Soul Banishment will activate if your foe has less than or equal to 10% of their Max HP.
If your foe's Max HP is between 2 and 3 times your Max HP, Soul Banishment threshold is 15% enemy Max HP.
If your foe's Max HP is between 1 and 2 times your Max HP, Soul Banishment threshold is 20% enemy Max HP.
If your foe's Max HP is between 1/2 and 1 times your Max HP, Soul Banishment threshold is 50% enemy Max HP.
If your foe's Max HP is less than 1/2 your Max HP, Soul Banishment threshold is 70% enemy Max HP.
If none of the above criteria are met, instead applies 'Soul Banished' (-100 Bonus) to target for 3 turns.

Mana Cost: 35
Cooldown: 4
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

The insta-kill effect is a cool gimmick but the real benefit of the skill is the 3 turn -100 bonus. Couple that with a quick cooldown and this skill can barely just feel borderline overpowered.


Soul Burst

Effect: 1 hit of 140-180% variable damage; applies 'All damage taken increased!' (-20 All Resist) to target for 4 turns; applies 'Mana burning away', a Magic Mana DoT between the values of 8% of the player's and the foe's Max MP, to target for 4 turns.

Mana Cost: 30
Cooldown: 10
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

Mana burn skills are useless since most enemies in the game aside from Minx Fairies don't use mana. The 4 turn -20 All resist is just too underpowered. Either buff to -50 all resist or increase number of turns.


Soul Vacuum

Effect: 2 hits of 90% damage for a total of 180% damage; applies 'Soulless' to target, stunning it for 1 turn; applies 'Essence Torn Away' (-30 Boost) to target for 4 turns.

Mana Cost: 45
Cooldown: 10
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

Another somewhat underpowered skill which requires just a minor rework. Maybe make the 1 turn stun a stun that bypasses immobility resist (like ChaosWeaver) and increase the number of the turns the -30 boost. I was gonna recommend buffing the -30 boost to -50 but realized you can stack this still with Soul Seal.


Remorse

Effect: 1 hit of 155% damage to all foes.

Mana Cost: 40
Cooldown: 1
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon

A typical multi hit skill. Every class seem to need to have one so it's fine as it is.


SoulSynch

Effect: Applies 'Focusing inner self' (+35 Boost) to player for 2 turns; charges up a powerful attack which will unlock in 2 turns. (Pop-up: You calm your mind and body.)
After 2 turns, applies 'Able to Synchronize' (+35 Boost) to player for 99 turns; unlocks a powerful attack, changing tooltip to 'Ready to unleash!'. (Pop-up: Your spirit is calmed and focused.)
Upon second use, Aegis is summoned to blast the target with 3 hits of 155% damage for a total of 465% damage; removes 'Able to Synchronize' from player. (Pop-up: Your calmed spirit releases a brilliant, focused attack!)

Mana Cost: 40
Cooldown: 2
Element: As weapon
Attack Type: As weapon


The other nuke skill. Since it requires 2 turns to actually use in reality the damage per turn works out to around 233% rounded up. The in reality low end nuke damage is offset by the lower cooldown and the risk/reward dilemma of do I use the skill a second time for burst damage or do I keep 35 boost for 99 turns. Maybe can be improved with a slight buff. Buff damage to 480% (I would of said 500% but that's a bit unreasonable) and +35 Boost to +40 Boost. But it's probably fine to leave as it is if you think that it make the skill too op.

< Message edited by Kyros123 -- 5/14/2021 22:17:20 >
Post #: 1
5/14/2021 23:52:39   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

Honestly, you could’ve used a quotation or link tag on this instead of giving a psychological impression of a lengthy thesis as you practically copy-pasta’d the MSW skill page. Nonetheless, my views on your perspectives.

Did you consider what class niche MSW wants to be? There is a clear view on its design that MSW is trying to be a defensive type class instead of the offensive type that SW has become courtesy of BA. This goes in line with spirit weaving lore that SWs, regardless of rank, shouldn’t have violence as their priorities. That -50 All buff you’re requesting, there is no need to make another techno.

It is also pretty clear that you don’t harness the full defense rotation of the class. The CD to status ailment combis of Aegis, Banish, Seal, and Vacuum are properly tuned so that you are practically protected for 5 turns in most cases and painkiller’d for the Seal-Vacuum once the anti-Bonus mechanics run their course while still allowing leeway for Syncing your foes to oblivion. I have used this tactic enhanced with 200 PROT Dragon against Angel of Azaveyr without any issue. Even without a dragon, it is still feasible with barely any modification. Perhaps the only thing I would agree upon your criticisms of the defense skills of MSW is the damage debuffs might be looked into.

As for the offensive skills, the Sync can definitely have more meditation bonuses and the nuke can have a damage boost to make it a bit closer to BaltaelSync’s output. As for the iconic Slice-Valor assault, do you remember how Warriors (and its evolved forms) and DLs perform their multi-slash combos? Always from scratch, so it’s nothing unusual. Perhaps the Bonus boost you’re proposing has room for consideration, but try to be more creative with Valor.

Finally, the oddball skills: Meditate and Purge. Since MSW has plenty of multihits and with Warlic’s Gift and BoA, the former can be definitely agreed upon that it’s a redundant system that requires some improvements or total changing to be worthwhile. As for Purge, remember my 200 PROT modification? I can use that specifically to make it useful in neutralizing anti-MPM effects among other things. Perhaps you might want to suggest a different incentive to use it, such as those used by Pyros.
DF AQW  Post #: 2
5/14/2021 23:56:08   
Primate Murder
Member

I have, admittedly, little knowledge of DF's balance standards, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

From what I understand, Master Soulweaver is meant to be a version of Soulweaver more focused on defence (as opposed to Baltael's). It has several potent debuff skills that are counteracted by lower SoulSynch damage, which seems quite reasonable. Purge is situational, but can be useful against bosses that stack debuffs and Meditation adds some staying power.

That said, I do think two or three things about MSW could be tweaked:

- As mentioned above, locking a +Bonus attack behind another hit seems counterproductive.

- Most mana-targeting skills have been swept. Soul Burst would be a nice addition to that.

- The class lacks a... gimmick, for lack of a better word. Nearly every class (outside the base ones) has something to make it unique. I think MSW would really benefit from some kind of a quirky mechanic to make it stand out, gain an identity of its own.

The recent wave of class revamps has been great, so thanks to the devs for all the hard work!
AQ DF  Post #: 3
5/15/2021 0:37:43   
Baron Dante
Member

I'm just gonna focus on that Purge part here, because I disagree.

Paladin also has a Purge skill, right? It's tied to one of the heals, which means it has a separate utility, but this also means that the Purge effect is stuck on a long CD. There's a lot of times when I'd want to Purge effects, but it's simply not viable because of the CD.
If Paladin was to get a rework, I might very well take a 4 turn CD Purge over the heal (But preferably, they'd just be two separate skills, I'm sure you could fit it in there)

The main point is that as you say, it's a very niche skill, but I don't think that's a bad thing. The niche itself has potential to be very powerful when it works.

An example from earlier today: I was planning Baleful Brothers out. While it didn't ultimately come to play, the early sequence of the fight is all about shielding dangerous effects and big damage. With the Pet Dragon, Paladin could do that three times with the shields. The fourth one could be taken care of with Purge. The fight might just end right there if the Purge didn't come to play.

Of course, that fight is also an example of effects that get reapplied far too often, but you just need to pick your battles wisely.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 4
5/15/2021 0:48:45   
Kyros123
Member
 

@Laeon val Observis

I copied/pasted how MSW skills currently work so anyone reading my post would have immediate context for my criticisms.

I also sort of addressed that the issue with full defense rotation of MSW is that if a enemy with insta-kill nuke catches you during Seal and Vacuum part of the rotation it doesn't matter how much of their Boost you're lowering, you're pretty much done for.

Admittedly the -50 All buff is a bit too op, maybe keep it a -20 and extend the duration to 6 or 7 turns instead of 4? I just felt that skill needed a buff since the mana burn part of the skill effectively does nothing.

My issues with Soul Pierce and Purge are the ones i won't budge on. Yes maybe you can use Purge to neutralize anti-MPM effects but how many bosses do you of that actually know apply those effects? Also let's compare Purge to Soul Aegis. Both take one turn to apply but Soul Aegis gives you 2 turns of protection effectively making up for the one turn you just lost. Purge does no such thing and that's assuming the enemy doesn't just reapply the negative effect on their next turn.

Also the Angel of Azaveyr is one of the more easier bosses who's only real threating gimmick is that they can't be K.O.ed with direct attacks. Though admittedly MSW is struggling with the Royal Resistance bosses since they have an ability which neutralizes multi-hit attacks after 2 hits which MSW relies on (basically a perfect counter for MSW).

< Message edited by Kyros123 -- 5/15/2021 0:54:15 >
Post #: 5
5/15/2021 1:14:13   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

@above I won’t delve any further as to how you style your texts. I just felt it too unnecessarily plain and spacious.
quote:

I also sort of addressed that the issue with full defense rotation of MSW is that if a enemy with insta-kill nuke catches you during Seal and Vacuum part of the rotation it doesn't matter how much of their Boost you're lowering, you're pretty much done for.

I see this as the mentality of one who roleplays more than he is strategic/pragmatic. There is a reason why multi-classing is part of this game, and that is to give you as much options to win. Options that give you more realistic ways to victory as opposed to forcing a personal reality, or delusion if you aren’t into too much formalities.
quote:

Yes maybe you can use Purge to neutralize anti-MPM effects but how many bosses do you of that actually know apply those effects?

Practically few, but where did I say that I’ll use Purge just for invalidating anti-MPMs? There is an “among other things” before I closed that statement. Baron Dante already elaborated upon such.

Apart from these, I won’t further put my words for now on other parts of your proposal whether to chastise or accept them.
DF AQW  Post #: 6
5/15/2021 2:16:49   
Kyros123
Member
 

quote:

I see this as the mentality of one who roleplays more than he is strategic/pragmatic. There is a reason why multi-classing is part of this game, and that is to give you as much options to win. Options that give you more realistic ways to victory as opposed to forcing a personal reality, or delusion if you aren’t into too much formalities.


Technomancer is actually my go to class for bossing. The main reason I use MSW has go nothing to do with roleplaying, its because I set it was my default class a long time and am usually too lazy to specifically switch to another class for just your basic story quest. Inn challenges on the other hand, it make sense to switch up classes then. I also fail to see how pointing out a flaw in a specific strategy counts a roleplaying.

quote:

Practically few, but where did I say that I’ll use Purge just for invalidating anti-MPMs? There is an “among other things” before I closed that statement. Baron Dante already elaborated upon such.


Would you mind informing me of what those other uses are then? Also Baron Dante did point out another use for Purge but he also admitted that bosses still apply negative effects too quickly for Purge to effectively counter them:
quote:

Of course, that fight is also an example of effects that get reapplied far too often, but you just need to pick your battles wisely.
Also at least Paladin purge skill comes with a heal so it's doing more than MSW.

< Message edited by Kyros123 -- 5/15/2021 2:18:30 >
Post #: 7
5/15/2021 8:10:03   
Laeon val Observis
Member
 

While I do have sufficient argumentations to try to convince you, since this is approaching the tones of biting on each other's heels, I'll hold my ground not to discuss here or anywhere further.
DF AQW  Post #: 8
5/15/2021 13:52:58   
mds2006
Member
 

Honestly the only thing I don't get is why they never made that Baltael thingy work for Master Soulweaver as well? like it'd be really cool if it did

seems kinda weird that a crazy power-up magical item only works for the.... "novice" version of the class? I mean, not actually "novice" but i couldnt think of a better word, with the whole thing of it not being called "Master" lol
Post #: 9
5/15/2021 18:22:31   
Baron Dante
Member

quote:

Also at least Paladin purge skill comes with a heal so it's doing more than MSW.

As I mentioned somewhere in there, the fact that it's tied to a heal is possibly a bad thing. Being able to use it on a much shorter CD makes it much more usable in scenarios where it would be useful.
Pally arguably doesn't need the heal portion too much. I guess swapping them wouldn't be too bad huh.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
5/17/2021 12:21:41   
Korriban Gaming
Banned


I do agree that MSW needs a rework

Soul Seal is essentially a permanent -25 boost on the monster, making it -50 would be sorta too OP imo? I personally think it's in an ok spot

Meditation. The biggest downside of MSW has to be its mana costs. I think this skill could be bumped up to heal a bit more like you said since it's outclassed by MP pots and Techno's Mana Eruption skill (but then again that's another class, not a very fair comparison)

Valor Impact. Agree with you, the fact that you don't use it immediately causes it to be relocked really limits its flexibility, I too would like to see this changed.

Soul Pierce. Fully agree with the buff you suggested. Removing the requirement to have landed a prior hit and giving you a X turn boost to BtH would be nice.

Soul Aegis. I think only being 2 turns is fine since it has a relatively short CD of 6 turns.

Purge. Though I like your idea of making yourself invulnerable to negative effects for X no. of turns, I feel like that would actually break alot of Inn fights and make them too easy. Idk

Soul Banish. I think it's in an ok place especially for some of the Inn fights. MSW is technically meant to be a more defensive class. Couple this with the current shield and -boost skill we have seems pretty balanced for a strong defensive class.

Soul Burst. -50 All would be too crazy OP imo and doesn't fit super well with the class's theme of being more defensively-oriented. I think sticking with -20 All is fine. At the same time, I also agree that mana burn skills are completely worthless. There definitely needs to be a rework for that secondary effect. I would suggest a lifesteal of sorts, a DoT on the monster that also heals you, similar to Life Tap on Necro but perhaps a weaker version.

Soul Vacuum. I think the CD, no. of turns and -30 Boost is fine but I like your suggestion of the 1 turn stun being able to bypass Immo Res. Though that may break some fights as we've seen with Soul Shred on ChW when it first came out.

SoulSynch. I feel it's ok where it is. A buff would make it kinda OP since it has a relatively short CD

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 11
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