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Endurance Spells

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4/28/2022 23:22:43   
Primate Murder
Member

I want to talk about Endurance spells.

And not just about Your Soul Burns Bright as a Beacon here (much as I love that particular spell), but also healing spells like Waters of Immortality and Cherub Protection. From what I see, they use either 125% melee or 100% melee costs to bring the overall effect to 200% melee - and that assumes End gives you 25/50% melee damage per turn. Which, as far as I know, it does not.

It's the same problem as with Cha weapons/spells, where you're assumed to invest in at least one MainStat, and so the turn cost does not drop below 75% - which is not necessarily true. So, is End even more broken than we thought?


I wanted to make a post here before I miss something obvious and make a fool of myself in GBI.

AQ DF  Post #: 1
4/29/2022 0:37:50   
Legendary Ash
Member

Mainstat damage is Stat/8 for a standard piece of equipment, 200 Stat points with the mentioned formula produces a Mainstat worth 38.5% melee and Luk worth 11.5% melee for each 100% melee of BRS%.
200 End increases base health by 77%, which is comparable to 2*38.5% melee.
Cha and End skills/spells simply replace Str/Dex/Int as Mainstats.

Currently there are no End Mainstat weapons, thus there is no specific damage distribution scheme for a potential End Mainstat build identity yet.
AQ  Post #: 2
5/1/2022 2:36:44   
Primate Murder
Member

quote:

Cha and End skills/spells simply replace Str/Dex/Int as Mainstats.


That's the part I'm uncertain about. End effectively doubles your hp and, until recently, that was all it did. Yet, judging by End spell costs, it also gives 25/50% melee damage? That seems a little unbalanced.

It's kind of the same thing with Cha. It was, more or less, balanced when it gave 20% melee damage to pets and 30% melee to guests (barring an incorrect uncompression bonus), but the addition of Cha weapons that also gain 25% melee damage throws it out of whack.
AQ DF  Post #: 3
5/1/2022 8:00:46   
Veleqwii_Fox
Member

I guess a few would be alright for a little flavor. But giving non-mainstats complete coverage that people can make a build solely out of them would indeed be a balance issue.

CHA weapons for example, don't really cover all elements and afaik none of them deal pure damage (there's always some sort of effect), so they're kind of balanced I guess
Post #: 4
5/1/2022 10:43:23   
Lv 1000
Member
quote:

It's the same problem as with Cha weapons/spells, where you're assumed to invest in at least one MainStat, and so the turn cost does not drop below 75% - which is not necessarily true.


CHA MainStat weapons are expected to deal 75% melee. All CHA MainStat weapons follow this (CHA Lucky Strikes are not counted here), even the ones that are not magic based (their damage is reduced by 0.75), so CHA spells have the appropriate 125% melee cost.
Post #: 5
5/1/2022 22:13:32   
Primate Murder
Member

@ Lvl 1000

Why? Why are they assumed to deal 75% melee?

It was my understanding that when it comes to weapon damage, 50% comes from equipment and 50% from your stats - Str gives full damage, Int gives half damage and half stored in mp bar. Cha gives all 50% damage to your pet/guest, so where did the additional 25% melee come from?


@ V_Fox

I'm not against flavor per se... but what about future items? The staff can't create End and Cha weapons/spells until there's some sort of standard to make them from. Leaving the situation unbalanced and unadressed effectively blocks off that entire design direction.
AQ DF  Post #: 6
5/2/2022 14:58:58   
Legendary Ash
Member

There are two aspects in balance at play, one is Stat damage/BtH from formulas that are consistent for standard equipment and the second is damage distribution scheme that builds on the identity of each Mainstat.
Damage distribution scheme is applied after Stat damage/BtH similar to how Stat damage afterward is distributed 25% to Base and 50% to Random.
The 50% from equipment, 38.5% from Mainstat 11.5% from Luk per 200 Stat points is as a whole affected by the scheme, Int and Cha weapons take a -25% penalty whose power is transferred into mana and Guests.

Cha weapons/skills/spells by themselves are not a problem because they are modeled after Int that is within balance, the problem lies with the unnecessary 10% melee decompression from Guests that if removed would allow it to become part of a balanced scheme, however we would still have the extraneous contribution from a Pet.

End skills/spells are valued similarly to Str/Dex in resource costs, that indicates it inexplicitly assumes a 100% melee weapon, that is +25% melee per Mainstat investment like Str/Dex/Int, this of course makes 77% Hp +25% = 102%, which is about quadruple the investment value of other Mainstats.
AQ  Post #: 7
5/2/2022 22:36:25   
Primate Murder
Member

Good ole Endurance, doing the work of four stats yet unable to move out of its dingy flat out in the slums.

Wait, you're saying Cha should boost Cha weapons/spells and not pets? That, uh, seems a little backward. It seems much more likely that the extraneous contribution comes from all the flavor stuff that came later than the one feature Cha was designed for from its very inception.

No offense meant, I just genuinely don't understand how you reached that conclusion.
AQ DF  Post #: 8
5/3/2022 0:18:07   
Legendary Ash
Member

The assumptions for equipment is that the player is expected to use those that their build is optimal for, categories of equipment namely weapons, skills/spells including those compressed into Armors/Shields have one of three(but equipment recognizes four) Mainstats Str/Dex/Int/(Cha), however the contradictory aspect of Pets is they are expected to be used without investment for Pure builds that currently consist of the recognized Warrior/Ranger/Mage archetypes for the base amount of 20% melee that comprises the 140% melee per turn of the 20 turn model, after factoring in the lack of expected stat accuracy that reduces Pet output severely, we certainly acknowledge that this 20% melee value is oversimplified and inaccurately represented when compared to other equipment categories that have higher accuracy than base due to investment in their Mainstats.

This inconsistency in equipment assumptions makes Pets the outlier, as mentioned before in the Stat revamp, I have proposed that Pets be allowed to use any of the four Mainstats without penalties like any other equipment assumed to be a part of the 20 turn model.
AQ  Post #: 9
5/3/2022 22:25:10   
Primate Murder
Member

Iirc, Chaotic calculated somewhere that a 0-Cha pet deals 15-16% melee (can't give a precise quote, sorry, I'm only a casual peruser of Discord); combined with the 25% melee sp regen per turn that adds up to ~140% a player's expected to deal per turn.

Your proposal either gives a player 25% extra damage or forces the staff to rework literally every pet in the game. The latter in untenable while the former causes balance issues and results in yet more power creep for every non-beast build. All for the sake of the three or four Cha weapons we have in the game.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think turning Cha into MainStat would really work in the long term.
AQ DF  Post #: 10
5/4/2022 0:38:04   
Legendary Ash
Member

Taken from Stat Balance Project - With Spreadsheets
quote:

Enemy (Accuracy) Base: This is the accuracy enemies will get against you under default circumstances. If we're using 15% as the accuracy effect from the main stat, I'm prepared to handicap enemy accuracy by 15% * 0.2/1.2 = 2.5%, because that's effectively the overall accuracy dropoff that comes from a pet not benefitting from CHA being trained, and making enemies pay that penalty is probably agreeable to everyone.

The plan stated above acknowledges the current situation that Monsters currently assume that their Pet's 20% melee is at expected stat accuracy, it would be less work to adopt the said proposal of having all future pets be one of four Mainstats, one existing precedent is Sneaking Diamond Dog that uses Dex as Mainstat while taking a -50% penalty, mind you that means it doesn't scale to highest of the Mainstats of a player's build like Armor compressed skills unless the Devs decide it should be like that to fill out Pet variety in 1/4 the number of Pets released, than to retroactively penalize every monster in the game that doesn't have Cha invested just to reflect the player's Pet's accuracy.

Additionally the 25% melee Sp regeneration per turn is valued at 20% melee because the player is assumed to be using a misc at *0.8 power and *1.2 cost
The 20 turn model's melee% damage output per turn never considered accuracy, this is why it the quote had to address it.
At 200 Dex/Luk Pet deals (Accuracy 1+0.38 Base BtH+0.15 Dex +0.05 Luk -0.90875 Blocking)*0.4(0.5 base+0.115 Luk) = 16.51% melee.
AQ  Post #: 11
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