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RE: =AQ= Chessmaster Saga - Checkmate

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8/21/2022 11:37:22   
LUPUL LUNATIC
Member
 

 I personally dont like this spell because its supposed to be for Warriors (Melee lock) and it trades a turn to boost the poison. This is valued at 100% melee but lets be honest, a Warrior turn is at minimum 125% Melee (because FO and because FD is a meme) and if you use boosters the spell sacrifices your Pet and Guest damage too on top for that turn (and yes you can swap them before you cast spell but if you have 0 CHA and 0 DEX they arent gonna do much anyway).

Imbues and costing a turn for Warriors are one thing i would really stay away from if i had to chance.

The Poison is good, it can heal a lot of damage with H series though since its a one hit drain(deals full damage on it), it can land on a negative element (even if is only one negative element a monster has) and then monster heals and you get damaged, the backfiring is way much punishing than just simply healing a monster in regular scenarious.

For damage, its not really good, for healing purposes it can be good and when you need "prismatic" hits. Though i do not know any situation where you can deal a ton of damage and also need Healing (it wouldnt work against Backlash because healing happens on monster turn so youd die first) because Damage Caps. If we are talking about normal monsters then H series does the job. The spell has utility i would not take it at face value, if i can find good uses for the spell then it means its niche was fullfiled (or i might just have a player skill issue if i dont see it ).

AQ  Post #: 51
8/21/2022 11:49:29   
Corvid
Member

For what it's worth, I think the loss of a turn takes away the practical use of the spell. It might be more balanced as a quick cast.

After casting, the spell boosts STR for 2 rounds and gives chromatic corruption for 3 rounds, but since the 1st turn is lost on casting, you actually only get these effects for 1 round and 2 rounds repectively. Also leaving yourself open to a turn of attacks effectively negates the healing utility of the poison... so the loss of a turn (open to attacks, losing a round of the boosts) plus the elemental randomness is too much imo.

< Message edited by Corvid -- 8/21/2022 11:55:20 >
AQ  Post #: 52
8/21/2022 12:14:51   
LUPUL LUNATIC
Member
 
quote:

For what it's worth, I think the loss of a turn takes away the practical use of the spell. It might be more balanced as a quick cast.


The reason the loss of turn is impractical is not because QC is better. Unravelling Nightmare spell turn loss is compensated accordingly (or Kindred) by adding a multiplicative *2 to your damage done. This keeps the FO Leans balanced with Kindred. FO Lean turn loss is 125% Melee and valued at 100% Melee with Kindred but since you get compensation in multiplicative x2 then x2 *1.25 is equal to 2 real turns of FO armor.

This does not happen here, the turn loss is added ADDITIVELY in Poison Power instead of keeping your damage done x2 and Poison Power being 100% Melee less. It results in it being underpowered when considering turn loss effects have to be multiplicative by nature.

Example : 100% melee turn with Power 2.5 for 2 turns *[Damage Mod] (50% Melee but since it also heals you is x2)
Versus 200% Melee turn standard lean ( its x2 because we put the power of poison back and compensate it as turn loss but since its x2 FO lean does not lose any value)but 250% Melee turn FO lean and -100% Poison Power in Melee would just be scaling purely on your damage so just [Damage Mod].
It should result in Power 1 *[Damage Mod] but since you would be doing double damage *FO lean then the scaling on the damage would compensate that base flat 100% Melee in Poison Power and would allow fair conversion from FO to spend turn effects.

So 250% Melee turn FO lean = Power 2.5 *[Damage Mod] , it would just be better and way better scaling with Damage Done because it should be cattered to FO Warriors.

quote:

After casting, the spell boosts STR for 2 rounds and gives chromatic corruption for 3 rounds, but since the 1st turn is lost on casting, you actually only get these effects for 1 round and 2 rounds repectively.


The STR boost is still active on you when it reaches 0 Duration so that it still lasts for the same amount of turns as the imbue.

< Message edited by LUPUL LUNATIC -- 8/21/2022 14:40:24 >
AQ  Post #: 53
8/22/2022 9:39:22   
Plushie Nugget
Member

it's all fun and games until you get the wrong element for the poison and you turn off your PC.
I don't see how that is not even slightly bad.
Post #: 54
8/22/2022 11:10:25   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

 When one specifically assumes taking an item outside of its niche, it will inevitably underperform. Chromatic Channeling should not be used against enemies with one or more negative resistances, in the same way that one wouldn't consider the scenario of fighting undead when judging the worth of dragon-trigger gear, or a weapon that pays a blood cost for auto-hit against a low-MRM boss. Some items have a narrower use case than being at peak performance against all enemies.

We also cannot assume the use of boosters and consider them wasted when casting this spell for the simple reason that you would not want to have boosters out on a turn in which you're not attacking in the first place. Keeping them out rather than dismissing them or using other options would not be a waste caused by the item.

My apologies, I missed a post:

quote:

I'm a bit confused, how exactly does that go against the spirit of the item? I'm suggesting those changes without a downside or a trade-off. Of course, this might make the item become "unbalanced" but I think it would be nice to not let these new, unique effects that staff have painstakingly come up with go to waste simply because the numbers don't allow them to make it better


As it was explained several times before, we cannot discard the essential foundation and structure of all combat interactions and begin creating items with arbitrarily picked values. Regardless of how it's framed, discarding balance entirely is out of the question for reasons that have been explained in this thread. To cite just two of the provided reasons, arbitrarily giving an item a ton of free power would go beyond excessive power creep, it would destroy our word as developers and any semblance of structure keeping design tasks doable within a reasonable time span. Balance isn't an optional concept that we're obtusely stubbornly obsessing over and can discard at a moment's notice. It is, as the thread says, a basic aspect of game design that is essential to our integrity and workflow.

< Message edited by Lorekeeper -- 8/22/2022 11:40:06 >
Post #: 55
8/22/2022 12:05:11   
Kaizoku
Member

Man, everyone's acting like Warriors have a ton of things to shove in their spell slots. It has a use case against enemies with flat or more even resistances. It's not even the first random element item in the game either.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 56
8/22/2022 13:35:22   
Macho Man
Member

Have the war rewards been delivered yet? Also has the chessmaster saga page been updated to include all of the recent additions? I missed a few of them and wanna finish this glorious saga
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 57
8/22/2022 13:54:47   
Korriban Gaming
Member

Let's look at it from its supposed niche then. There are 2 scenarios whereby a player would usually need to heal

1. Long encounters that have 2/4 or more battles without heals in between/Gauntlets. I can probably count with 1 hand how many of these currently exist in the game

2. Boss battles

Since 1 is so far and few in between, let's look at 2. Most bosses don't have flat or even resistances. The healing and damage can be good if stacked with stuff like EleVuln but almost all modern bosses have a damage cap which limits the damage and healing of the spell. So apart from the very few cases in 1, where else is the spell supposed to be good at?

It's certainly not the first random element item in the game but there's a reason why nobody uses those (maybe apart from the multi-hit Eye of Chaos spell but that's good because it's multi-hit)

Balance in terms of numbers is one thing but what about balance in a practical game aspect? The spell is balanced on paper, but is it actually good/balanced in the game after taking into account all the points I brought up? I have been blindsided before so I would like to know where this niche where the spell is supposedly good at actually is. Using the spell against normal mobs with flat/even resistances during regular 2 monsters per heal encounters is certainly possible but I'm not sure if anyone actually does that in the current meta. I understand that not every item released has to be good or the best (that's bad game design) but when items are bad, can we just say so rather than sugarcoating it and calling it niche? The game has over a 1000 items, it's impossible for every item to be good/usable and that's perfectly fine

I hope I don't come off as too aggressive and I don't have a personal vendetta against this spell lol, I'm just struggling to understand what is good about it because the niche scenarios brought up are very few/not practical

< Message edited by Korriban Gaming -- 8/22/2022 14:04:10 >
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 58
8/22/2022 14:36:03   
  The Hollow
AQ Lead


 War win prizes have been delivered!
AQ  Post #: 59
8/22/2022 17:47:09   
CH4OT1C!
Member

@Korriban Gaming: If, when considering this item, we ascribe to the criteria to which you describe within your posts on this topic, namely:
1). High Damage Output/Boosts are objectively better than lower ones
2). Reliable Damage/Effects are objectively better than those subject to a save
3). The bonus provided by randomly shifting elements is not worth the compensation is provides
4). Quickcast effects are objectively better than items that cost a turn to use
5). Higher cost items being objectively worse than lower cost items
6). Items hindered by boss effects are inherently worse.

Then yes, this Spell is not good. Moreover, nothing short of a complete redesign would make it any better; the suggestions you made would be completely insufficient to improve the effect. For example, making the spell auto-inflict or quickcast would be pointless because boss damage caps would prevent substantial heals, regardless of whether we were to entirely ignore mathematical balance. Removing the random-element bonus would be ineffective for the same reason. I wouldn't go so far as to say nobody uses random-element attacks (as I lack such evidence either way), but it certainly isn't practical.

I think the reason you're having trouble seeing the positive aspects of this spell is because you view it through the wrong lens. I assume (though cannot prove) that you derive fun in-game from items that display some or all of the qualities outlined above. Items that possess efficient, weapon-based damage skills with multiple hits e.g., Lord of the Skies. An item like Chromatic Corruption cannot and does not appeal to that kind of gameplay - how could it? The very premise of the item is to sacrifice convenience and reliability for raw poison power (and healing). It appeals to those who derive fun not from sheer competitiveness, but from creativity. To combine and utilise items with downsides, but also unusual upsides that can lead to interesting gameplay. It's not as outright competitive when regarding the META, but it's not designed to be. Nor indeed could it be made to. At its very premise, it's a spell that trades resources for a damage-scaling poison. DoTs like poison are competitively terrible for FO players regardless of damage scaling, especially Warriors since they have no real defensive prowess. To make this traditionally competitive, you'd have to change every single thing about it.

It's good and fun because it's creative, not because it'll compete with a skill from lord of the skies or boost your damage as much as Buffalot. It'll lose if you define it by those metrics, because those weren't the metrics it was designed for. No amount of breaking balance would change that.
AQ  Post #: 60
8/23/2022 2:04:04   
Plushie Nugget
Member

It would be nice to make the poison not random itself but to follow weapon element. So if you use an imbue after casting the spell you get a poison for the desired element. Also if costs could be tuned down, that a lot of SP and a turn. I like the spell but its on the verge of active inventory usage for me (who does not plan on paying for Buffalot, so having a f2p alternative is nice)
Post #: 61
8/23/2022 11:21:58   
Bolter
Member

Argh, it's only rainbow-colored in the Harm Prismatic Burn toggle, I was actually hoping for it to be rainbow-colored all throughout even on the default Energy toggle. It hardly looks any different from the normal non-scaling variants in the Energy Toggle.

< Message edited by Bolter -- 8/23/2022 11:28:46 >
AQ  Post #: 62
8/23/2022 16:38:05   
LUPUL LUNATIC
Member
 
quote:

At its very premise, it's a spell that trades resources for a damage-scaling poison. DoTs like poison are competitively terrible for FO players regardless of damage scaling, especially Warriors since they have no real defensive prowess.


This is my biggest downside with this spell, as a Warrior im basically using FO lean more than any other build (Paladin is an option for FD but thats it), spending my turn for 100% melee is not worth the same as for example you know Sunburst Amulet? Well i traded my weak FDBR 0-STR turn for a big DoT and there it was a damage gain because i wasnt even using FO at all.

When such a build like Warrior exists that is more or less forced into FO because using weapon based skills require 0-proc to not interfere with weapon proc and lack of melee 100-procs yeah its just FO.

I would have used this spell if the spend turn resource was just added to player damage x2 because ultimately it will achieve the same thing, poison scales with power based on damage dealt it would objectively be better for FO Warriors and basically for any Warrior. Its just my biggest drawback for this effect, i loved Unravelling Nightmare a lot and i think this could be a Warrior version of it albeit random elements.
AQ  Post #: 63
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