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=AQ= Fighter Class Overhaul & Fall Season LTS

 
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9/19/2022 12:21:57   
PD
Member
 

From the homepage: https://battleon.com

quote:

Monday, September 19, 2022

COMING THIS WEEK!

Fighter Class Overhaul:
It's time to look back in time to the earliest days of your adventures, where you first sought Blackhawke's instruction for melee combat! Or perhaps, for you, it was a little later in your early heroic days that you broadened your horizons to a new way to do battle. In either case, the renewal and mastery of your Fighter days awaits!

Limited-Time Shop - Fall Season:
Say goodbye to Summer as the next seasonal shop arrives for Fall! Falltide dagger and spells may look to be made of brittle leaves, but they are razor sharp and capable of slicing your foes swift as the Wind!


Tagged just to sneak up on Anim and totally ethically fix my typo in the news. Fighter hype! -Lore.

< Message edited by Lorekeeper -- 9/19/2022 12:35:00 >
Post #: 1
9/19/2022 12:38:39   
battlesiege15
Member

Woot, another class overhaul! This is exciting.

Hopefully this means that soon, we may see more about the *class that must not be named that rhymes with march sage*.
Also, can we move the Torontosaurus fromt the LTS since it is kinda permanently found in the Frostvale shop?
AQ AQW  Post #: 2
9/19/2022 14:28:13   
Kaizoku
Member

Booyah! Can't imagine what it would do. This is just a personal hope of mine, but with Fighters being masters of all weapons it would be awesome to see a skill that had different effects depending on weapon type (so swords, axes, maces, spears would all do something different).
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 3
9/19/2022 14:29:40   
Sapphire
Member

I hope this starts a multi-week run (or close) of several class revamps. I was hoping we would have seen it happen ever since it was announced and by this time many many many classes would be overhauled. Life happens and so that's why there should IMO be an emphasis on it. It's a seemingly foundational aspect of gameplay as well. -crosses fingers-

At the very least, it's something!
Post #: 4
9/19/2022 19:00:47   
GwenMay
Member

Another class overhaul is very welcome news! Looking forward to it!
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 5
9/20/2022 0:53:03   
PD
Member
 

Hoping that after this Fighter Class update, that I ought to play on a new character again. My big hope in all of this being that the early game warrior experience will be that much more easy to play. I think one overlooked thing about these class updates is that compared to the old roll-pass system, the new system is much more forgiving; you don't even have to pass the stat roll to level up.

While this community has its fair mix of reaction in regards to mages, the Mage Class overhaul is actually the one that I'm looking forward to the most given that the base Mage Class is required to access many other classes in the game that warriors find useful. The most important requirement being Paladin which requires level 10 mage. Though I can imagine as a side benefit, starting mages will love this update because it no longer penalizes you for not investing in STR to pass rolls to level up class ranks.

Quick note - now that Fighter is going to be updated, and Paladin requires level 10 Fighter, will Paladin get a reduced Fighter Class requirement or will Fighter be 10 levels but 5 skills?

PS: We do not speak of leaks in these AQ Forums. There was no Fighter Class Leak on the AQ Forums. No GTA6 Leaks Either.

< Message edited by PD -- 9/20/2022 1:50:15 >
Post #: 6
9/21/2022 0:18:54   
Korriban Gaming
Banned


Year 11 of asking for Archmage, the Mage bias is strong
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 7
9/21/2022 7:18:17   
Sapphire
Member

The Mage bias is nonsense.

That list is mostly coincidence and much of it is a mage bias mindset looking for mage bias. It's akin to law enforcement thinking there was a crime w/o any evidence so they investigate in order to find a crime just to prove there was a crime.

The magic toggle was a matter of QoL and convenience. The cutlass change was a customer service win for all. There is only 1 T3 mage class. Paladin isn't a mage class. It's more of a universal. Item creation and design (bloodmages vs zerkers) staff seems to have little control over. It seems like the art side dictates the aesthetic side more than we realize. I think Thern and Dunami was an attempt to be fair since Poelala existed for years prior, so no bias once they were created. It actually showed an attempt to make it unbiased.


The stat revamp...what have Mages been given? Not 1 thing. "They're already balanced" Some may say they're still OP, but IMO it's something that's difficult to quantify due to the extra resource bar so it is what it is.

I don't see mage bias. I see attempts to equal the playing field. And even if there was Mage bias in the past, It probably wasn't on purpose.

It's the players coming to unjust conclusions to justify their own pre-determined outcomes.
Post #: 8
9/21/2022 8:17:43   
Kaizoku
Member

quote:

The magic toggle was a matter of QoL and convenience.

Remember when Giant Butcherer came out and everyone begged it to be a magic weapon too? Despite having an entire subset of items (spells) almost entirely dedicated to their builds, mages could not comprehend having items not catered to them.

quote:

The cutlass change was a customer service win for all.

For mages. Or do you mean we should use it as a precedent to start brigading on the forums for Thrale's Scorn to get unnerfed? I don't really like the idea of setting that as a trend.

quote:

Paladin isn't a mage class. It's more of a universal.

The point being it's something mages can also use while Warriors don't get much use out of Necro and presumably Archmage, which was already acknowledged by staff.

quote:

Item creation and design (bloodmages vs zerkers) staff seems to have little control over.

Visually, yes. Bloodzerkers were I assume a response to the demand for a warrior version of the popular Bloodmage armors, yet they got their weapons with a magic toggle simply to appease mage players who didn't have the appropriate bloodmage armor yet for some elements when we all know they'll make every element variant of both eventually. Hence, there was no need to make the warrior version also cater to mages.

quote:

I think Thern and Dunami was an attempt to be fair since Poelala existed for years prior, so no bias once they were created. It actually showed an attempt to make it unbiased.

Their existence wasn't being contested, it's that you have a 50 dollar price tag on the other two.

quote:

The stat revamp...what have Mages been given? Not 1 thing.

They also did not become unable to use Horo-Show, Taladosian etc. because those armors are Ranged/Magic locked and unavailable to pure warriors who don't use DEX. Not that it'll matter when they eventually get updated.

quote:

It's the players coming to unjust conclusions to justify their own pre-determined outcomes.

In my experience invalidating someone's point of view without attempting to understand it is a terrible way to hold dialogue. A lot has been done and is being done to alleviate the mage bias concerns (just recently, Archmage) so pretending it never happened and isn't a thing is silly.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 9
9/21/2022 9:42:31   
Korriban Gaming
Banned


It was meant to be a joke, warriors and rangers really do be taking it way too seriously. We have been getting so many warrior and ranger releases recently, why is 1 cutlass change/rerelease getting so much heat?

quote:

Remember when Giant Butcherer came out and everyone begged it to be a magic weapon too? Despite having an entire subset of items (spells) almost entirely dedicated to their builds, mages could not comprehend having items not catered to them.

I wasn't active on the forums when that happened YEARS ago. I really don't see much of that nowadays if any at all with the recent releases

quote:

For mages. Or do you mean we should use it as a precedent to start brigading on the forums for Thrale's Scorn to get unnerfed? I don't really like the idea of setting that as a trend.

It's a win for all. I believe it has already been explained a few times that it was convenient for staff to update the cutlasses because it was getting a rerelease. I'm pretty sure the same would go for future warrior and ranger rereleases. Personally I would be in support for warrior and ranger equipment to get similar changes but mages are probably the more popular build which is why you may not be seeing as much support. Doesn't mean people are against bringing warrior and ranger items into power. Brigading is a very strong word. It's more of keeping your customers happy so they will actually buy the premium items the game puts out. Players happy, game makes money, win-win

quote:

The point being it's something mages can also use while Warriors don't get much use out of Necro and presumably Archmage, which was already acknowledged by staff.

The staff has updated 2 out of god-knows-how-many classes there are in this game up to T3. When everything else gets updated eventually I'm sure the numbers will even out

quote:

yet they got their weapons with a magic toggle simply to appease mage players who didn't have the appropriate bloodmage armor yet for some elements when we all know they'll make every element variant of both eventually. Hence, there was no need to make the warrior version also cater to mages.

The bloodblades have a melee toggle too, so what's your point? If anything, it should be rangers who should be angry (but then again, FO rangers don't really exist so...)

quote:

Their existence wasn't being contested, it's that you have a 50 dollar price tag on the other two.

Poe is still UR, it's not like it's a free item unless you just get very lucky with GGBs. While yes, it is indeed a bit cheaper to get

AQ DF AQW  Post #: 10
9/21/2022 10:42:29   
battlesiege15
Member

Just curious, is Kalanyr coming back? I know Archmage was his project but he went off to get a PhD I think, so just curious!
AQ AQW  Post #: 11
9/21/2022 14:47:33   
Sapphire
Member

I'm afraid none of this has changed my point of view. It really sort of feels like you're proving my points mostly. I mean look..

quote:

Remember when Giant Butcherer came out and everyone begged it to be a magic weapon too? Despite having an entire subset of items (spells) almost entirely dedicated to their builds, mages could not comprehend having items not catered to them.


It really doesn't matter what players wanted if staff showed a lack of mage bias and left the weapon as Melee only. By leaving a weapon as melee only, maybe this was warrior bias? I don't think so because over time, it should all equal out and is a case by case basis. There was no mage bias because players "cried" There was no warrior bias as staff did the right thing here and left the weapon as it was intended.


quote:

For mages. Or do you mean we should use it as a precedent to start brigading on the forums for Thrale's Scorn to get unnerfed? I don't really like the idea of setting that as a trend.


I wasn't around to remember this, but as I said before, comparing Thrale's to the cutlass thing are not apples to apples. For two KEY reasons:
1. The Cutlasses were still nerfed even with them going back and making the change. It just changed the flavor, and kept the intent. Just like with your bad butcherer example.
2. There are multiple clones of the cutlass, so in all this was about a set of items (8) that likely *many* more people had and/will obtain.


It's also a win for all because Lorekeeper literally said in his post that this might help create a template for future adjustments. This is NOT just a win for Mages. It's a precedent that's actually GOOD.

quote:


Bloodzerkers were I assume a response to the demand for a warrior version of the popular Bloodmage armors, yet they got their weapons with a magic toggle simply to appease mage players who didn't have the appropriate bloodmage armor yet for some elements when we all know they'll make every element variant of both eventually. Hence, there was no need to make the warrior version also cater to mages.


Call me crazy, but staff making bloodzerker to match the bloodmage seems like unbiased item making. It would be biased if the zerker armors never happened. Your argument also proves my point.


I wont comment on a couple of the other points as I see no relation to the topic, but I'll end with..
quote:


In my experience invalidating someone's point of view without attempting to understand it is a terrible way to hold dialogue. A lot has been done and is being done to alleviate the mage bias concerns (just recently, Archmage) so pretending it never happened and isn't a thing is silly.


I don't invalidate your point of view. I simply don't think any of the arguments being made have any real evidence to support what's being said. In addition, I also said in my prior post that *if there was ever any mage bias in the past, it wasn't on purpose. Bias often shows intent. I don't see intent to favor Mages, especially these days. I see intent to balance others up to Mages.

And when people continue to push a narrative that I really feel isn't sufficiently there, it just feels like a stretch to fill in gaps that can't be filled, and is why I made the comment in the first place about unjust conclusions about pre-determined outcomes. If someone has convinced themselves there is Mage bias, then they'll grasp at anything to "prove" their belief. It just kind of feels like this "in general" when people push the Mage Bias non issue. I made the comment more about the general feeling of it more so that saying anything about you in particular.
Post #: 12
9/21/2022 16:32:32   
  Lorekeeper
And Pun-isher

 

We can acknowledge a more complex overarching issue without needing to have a player conflict over it. Different aspects of one compound problem, viewed from different perspectives, can look like different problems and spark theories that lead to different conclusions. These conclusions lead to legitimate concerns, but may seem mutually exclusive until brought into a unifying context, and so there's an unfortunate opportunity for conflict.

To establish some common ground: There is no intent whatsoever to skew the game in favor of one build over others. The reason for the Cutlasses to be changed again, as was explained in the relevant thread, was the concerns caused by letting a bug sit in a premium item for an exceptionally long time while clones were released. With the actual definitions at play on the table, what problem can we tackle from this common ground?

The broader issue at play here is build identity, and problems in this field (Be they caused by scheduling complications or less refined older standards) branch off into individual issues such as the ones being discussed here. Let's break this down into some key points:

  • The excessive proliferation of damage type toggles, for instance, resulted in a sharp reduction of items that distinctly feel like they belong to a specific build. This is not build bias, it's the very opposite problem: Mass appeal wrought by the pursuit of much-needed time efficiency. However, the proliferation of universal items would, by virtue of not addressing build identity concerns, let them aggravate over time. The concrete damage to build identity here is that the lines between playstyles blur as builds are encouraged to play the same.

  • When an item is broadly multiple-build or a generalist setup, the usual result is that it'll be perceived as belonging to/favoring the build that is most popular or produces the biggest numbers with it. For instance, Paladin is still often called a mage class to this day, when this is an incorrect definition unless we exercise out-of-game mage bias by calling anything that a mage build CAN use an exclusively mage-oriented item. But in unpacking the concerns that leads to these optics, we run into a perfectly valid one: When an item encourages one build's playstyle, but produces better results with the stats of another, the lines have gone for blurring to breaking. This is why it makes sense to arrive at the assumption of mage bias before accounting for the first point -- Because Warrior-playstyle items with magic toggles would perform better in Mage builds, and that's inherently bad.

  • Booster disparity is a problem, given that token contests make it much more likely to get Poelala without ever buying Z-Tokens, but this is a problem of old and recent standards clashing rather than one we can easily solve. It's a wrong if we do, wrong if we don't situation at this point How does this wind back to build identity rather than constituting mage bias? The above issues, combined with the former role of Dexterity in the accuracy of other main stats, created a context in which every build was judged by its ability to perform like a nuking Mage - While nuking mages played the Warrior playstyle with higher numbers. Mage builds had absorbed Warrior's niche, making Warriors the second best at being Warriors. Offensive Rangers, in the mean time, were utterly indistinct from Warriors in terms of build, and the same stats played better with Melee weapons due to higher damage in a context that trivialized accuracy. The booster situation increased the impact of this context, and thus the urgency of reestablishing the boundaries of builds.

  • While mode toggles are still a necessary tool in our box, most importantly to keep some huge sets or certain packages able to be tackled in one week during busy times, we've been switching it up for a few years. We've been trying to fill elemental and build gaps, and the latter has happened through attempts at creating items that reward specific builds rather than either forcing them, encouraging the playstyles associated with them. This is why the H-Series Tempest Power Armor doesn't have a magic clone, for instance. Because of the consecutive mage-accessible classes, warriors get a special share of this attention. However, this is an inherently slow process, as every year has to have some items for all builds regardless of which one is being focused on. Because this process is slow, progress can be difficult to notice and setbacks spark more intense discussions than they would if they came after huge releases dedicated to tackling the issue.

  • Build identity had a major change that complicates finding a middle ground in inter-build balance discussions. As of the first step of the stat revamp, the old definitions of pure builds ceased to apply. The stats that once made a Mage now make a Mage/Ranger hybrid. The stats that once made a Warrior now make a Warrior/Ranger hybrid. The stats that once made a Ranger... Oh. Right. The way that this was handled, namely making each stat govern its own damage and accuracy, by definition has not and can not take access to DEX based items away from anyone, because it didn't force non-Rangers to remove DEX. One can remain a double main stat hybrid, or replace a main stat with a secondary stat. This is simple in isolation, but a returning player might join a discussion using old definitions and be thrown for a loop. Now imagine that happens in a rather heated discussion. Not a fun prospect, is it?

  • On top of having changed, build identity as a whole is in flux right now. The stat revamp was built on a need to re-separate builds and reevaluate what the style of each should be, and then prompted another such reevaluation. And then the pandemic decided it wanted to weigh in on the opportunity to fix that. Several times, in fact. DEX is in a state of uncertainty as a result of these interruptions, while STR is still waiting for its turn to get a more detailed identity than hitting things and then hitting them again. It's easy to think that this favors INT when that stat was deemed to already be in a good place, but we're actively working on bringing the others up to par - It just has to be done in a way that plays distinctly from it.

    Hopefully this can be considered a point of common ground going forward, and we can tackle this problem together rather than taking a letting it become a source of conflict.




    Now then, Back to topic?
  • Post #: 13
    9/22/2022 12:01:36   
      The Hollow
    AQ Lead


    It is looking like a Friday Saturday release this week!

    < Message edited by The Hollow -- 9/23/2022 11:12:41 >
    AQ  Post #: 14
    9/22/2022 12:43:51   
    Sapphire
    Member

    Once it's out any chance the info subs go up, and maybe even the archer class along with it? Thanks!
    Post #: 15
    9/22/2022 12:43:56   
    Bolter
    Member

    Don't mind if I ask about the hammer/maul featured on the newsletter. Is it part of the armaments used by the Fighter class itself or will it be a weapon that becomes available in the class shop? Or will it be in the Fall Season LTS?
    AQ  Post #: 16
    9/23/2022 7:51:27   
      Grixus Faldor



    This is exciting! Gee, I still remember selecting the Fighter class as my first ever class on my brand new character way back in the day (!). That’s one thing I’ve always appreciated about the game, the devs never neglect the older quests and classes. Every week, there’s new content and they always come back and revisit the older content.

    These new quests will be exciting, I’m sure.
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 17
    9/24/2022 7:55:49   
    magma333
    Member

    I know this is not the right forum for this question. I have been trying to log onto AQ and its on the loading screen and everything says ready but the balance system still says loading, I have already tried clearing my cache, and moving closer to the router, nothing seems to work. Any help would be great
    AQ  Post #: 18
    9/24/2022 9:11:36   
    doomas
    Member

    ^ Seems I have the same problem.
    don't know if its a glitch or maybe staff is pulling maintinance on the website.
    AQ  Post #: 19
    9/24/2022 9:47:29   
    battlesiege15
    Member

    Also confirming that I am unable to login due to "Balance System" not loading.
    AQ AQW  Post #: 20
    9/24/2022 10:56:09   
    Sapphire
    Member

    ^ Supposed to be fixed
    Post #: 21
    9/24/2022 13:54:23   
      The Hollow
    AQ Lead


    There may be a delay with today's release while testing is ongoing.
    AQ  Post #: 22
    9/24/2022 15:03:03   
    PD
    Member
     

    Just before it's released, can there be a quick health check once again on Fighter Class and its dependent classes? I said in my last post that Paladin needs level 10 Fighter but also now Knight also requires level 10 fighter. Hopefully these classes won't be locked out.
    Post #: 23
    9/24/2022 17:27:27   
      The Hollow
    AQ Lead


    Knight Class reqs have been updated to lvl 5, thank you! Paladin checks for Knight/Mage class levels which are both 5 now. The new Fighter Class is live! Head upstairs in Yulgar's Inn to find Blackhawke, and begin the renewal and mastery of your Fighter training. Also new gear in the Fall Season Limited-Time Shop has just arrived. Kam will be updating Falltide Dagger next week to make it mastercraft.
    AQ  Post #: 24
    9/24/2022 17:59:49   
    Zennistrad
    Member

    Huh, Ice Element? That's unexpected. Was absolutely convinced it would be Earth, if anything
    AQ  Post #: 25
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