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=AQ= Spring Balance Update

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6/4/2023 1:55:54   
  Ianthe
 formerly In Media Res

 

 Happy April folks! ... wait it's June? Aw h*ck ><

Sp two four months ago I took on the task of updating every guest in the game to run through the Balance Engine. Right now updating guests was the most prominent balance issue that needed to be fixed -- CHA gives too much of a bonus for their stat investment, especially in comparison with LUK and END. At the very least guests need their SP cost upped. We're still discussing the exact cost but it's probably gonna be 20% - 30% Melee, with 30% - 40% Melee for booster guests. Sadly guest cost is hardcoded to each guest and can't be easily adjusted by a game engine patch; thus my project! Once this gets fixed we'll also update pet BTH to use [MainStat] and CHA rather than DEX and CHA; guests are currently set to use purely CHA but switching them to use [MainStat] and CHA is also on the table.

There were 801 guest files on the server when I started. I figured about a third were old revisions (I mean, we're on version 12 of Poelala and we don't need the earlier 11 versions) and maybe a tenth were ancient stuff like Twilly in a Juicy Fruit Tree that are super out of date and don't need updating. It didn't seem that intimidating at first, but there's two things I didn't account for:
1) My tendency to fix bugs and update code as I went along, making some guests take multiple times as long to finish
2) Me getting sick D:

So I only got about halfway through. Hollow's scheduled more time for me to work on it in July and I'm hopefully gonna finish by the end of Summer.

In the meantime, there's other balance issues we're hoping to tackle.
Additional Player Mainstat Style Bonuses

Right now each mainstat gives you bonus features that help you whether you're wielding the right weapon type or not:
- Training DEX gives you up to +5 blocking
- Training STR gives you approx. +5% weapon damage

We're seeking to boost these bonuses and add new ones to make hybrid builds more attractive. Each stat should ideally have ~20% Melee worth of bonuses, and just to be clear these'll only affect the player and not the monster. Proposed updates include:
    STR
  • Increase existing bonus to +10% weapon damage.
  • One of the following:
  • > Regenerate [10% Melee] in SP whenever you perform a weapon-based skill
  • > Heal [10% Melee] in HP whenever you attack weapon a weapon
  • Enable "warrior lean": FD armours deal 100% outdoing damage and take 80% incoming damage.

    DEX
  • Enable BTH lean expertise: the downside of BTH leans is mitigated by up to 25% on all weapon attacks and spells.
  • > Example: at +20 BTH lean, you normally gain +20 BTH and deal 81% damage. With full DEX, this becomes +20 BTH and deal 86% damage.
  • > Example: at -20 BTH lean, you normally deal 131% damage and take -20 BTH. With full DEX, this becomes 131% damage and take -15 BTH.
  • Increase the blocking bonus to +6

    INT
  • Regenerate [10% Melee] in MP whenever you cast a spell/SPell
We're also working on some bonuses for secondary stats, but we haven't fleshed them out yet so right now. Current pencilled-in plans include:
    END
  • [Implemented] Increased status resistance
  • [Implemented] Increased heal resistance

    CHA
  • Mitigate some of the upcoming increase to guest upkeep cost

    LUK
  • Increased immobility resistance
Ranged Stat Identity

It's pretty clear you all hate the current "increase damage as the battle goes on" mechanic. I've since improved it a little:
  • Old: damage starts at 75% and increases by 6% per turn, to a max of 129%.
  • New: damage starts at 80% and increases by 7% per turn. After the 10th turn (at 143% damage), damage increases by 3.5% per turn indefinitely.

    This is probably not going to win your favour, so we have two options we'd like you to consider:

    The first is pretty simple: take a -1.5 BTH lean (about +1.5% damage) whenever you hit, and a +8.5 BTH lean whenever you miss. This is pretty easy to explain: you get more accurate against dodgy targets and more powerful versus targets that give the broad side of a barn some competition. It can also function as a way to ramp up damage over combat without the massive drop on round 1, plus it'll combo nicely with the BTH lean expertise above.

    The second is "the nuclear option" of turning Rangers into skillcasters. Non-skill weapon attacks take -25% damage and you regen [25% Melee] SP per turn, with no penalty for skill attacks. This won't mean much by itself and we'll have to change how we make Ranged options, with more built-in skills or "pay SP to X" options. We're a bit uneasy about this -- it might lead to us needing new standards for Ranged skills or something we currently can't foresee -- but if it's something you all like then we'd be willing to give it a shot.

    Let us know what you think o/

    Lorekeeper edit: Snipped a dev draft note.

    < Message edited by Ianthe -- 6/4/2023 2:16:59 >
    • AQ  Post #: 1
    6/4/2023 2:29:19   
    Mananite
    Member

    		Resource kickback for STR/INT shouldn't come into the game. As it stands, weaponskills are already insanely efficient as-is; if the effective SP regen with STR becomes 35% Melee, many weapon-based skills will become a net gain in SP, further widening the gap between weapon skills and spell-like skills. This isn't even bringing up outliers like Beacon and Angel of Souls into the equation; HP costs (especially outdated ones) are relatively trivial to pay with END investment, and would give these builds even more resources to play around with without actually having to pay anything meaningful.

    As an aside, would the regen be based off of the player's level? Going back to Beacon as an example, it can be used to gain back massive amounts of MP/SP with the Communicant weapon, as it's a damaging Light spell that doesn't cost MP or SP. If the regen is based on the player's level, this would enable degenerate situations where the cheapest possible skills/spells are used just to get that SP/MP kickback (which Communicant already enables as the Valencia token spell revamp gave us an obscenely cheap autohit light spell to trigger the regen).
    Post #: 2
    6/4/2023 3:37:21   
    Korriban Gaming
    Banned


    		 Looks like the full revamp is still gonna take a while but I appreciate the updates!

    quote:

    At the very least guests need their SP cost upped. We're still discussing the exact cost but it's probably gonna be 20% - 30% Melee, with 30% - 40% Melee for booster guests.

    I have openly expressed my concerns and disagreements with this multiple times in the past for the main reason that guests should not solely be for BM builds only. With a noticeable increase in cost, non BM builds would not be able to keep up the demand in SP if we factor in other stuff like item toggles, miscs and the occasional skill or 2 if we don't factor in items like EO. I seriously hope this gets looked at again and reconsidered. I strongly feel the current SP ecosystem we have with regards to costs for items is perfect, to change it to negatively affect the players is going to get a big downvote from me.

    quote:

    but switching them to use [MainStat] and CHA is also on the table.

    This seems like a good change.

    quote:

    STR
    Increase existing bonus to +10% weapon damage.
    > Regenerate [10% Melee] in SP whenever you perform a weapon-based skill

    This seems the most suitable IMO. Healing HP seems like something more for END rather than STR whereas I don't even know how many FD Warrior Armors even exist that would make the 3rd proposal even remotely attractive. To only start to introduce them now right when the revamp is only a few months away is too late for there to be enough good variety.

    quote:

    DEX
    Enable BTH lean expertise: the downside of BTH leans is mitigated by up to 25% on all weapon attacks and spells.
    > Example: at +20 BTH lean, you normally gain +20 BTH and deal 81% damage. With full DEX, this becomes +20 BTH and deal 86% damage.
    > Example: at -20 BTH lean, you normally deal 131% damage and take -20 BTH. With full DEX, this becomes 131% damage and take -15 BTH.
    Increase the blocking bonus to +6

    Personally no issues with this even though I don't feel like it's the most exciting thing in the world.

    quote:

    It's pretty clear you all hate the current "increase damage as the battle goes on" mechanic. I've since improved it a little:
    Old: damage starts at 75% and increases by 6% per turn, to a max of 129%.
    New: damage starts at 80% and increases by 7% per turn. After the 10th turn (at 143% damage), damage increases by 3.5% per turn indefinitely.

    Coupled with this, I think the new DEX is looking really good and I love it.

    quote:

    INT
    Regenerate [10% Melee] in MP whenever you cast a spell/SPell

    Love this idea, but I think I would prefer it if the regeneration happens whenever we attack with a Magic weapon as opposed to when we cast a spell. I think that also makes a bit more sense thematically.

    quote:

    END
    [Implemented] Increased status resistance
    [Implemented] Increased heal resistance

    So no changes to END in the revamp? I'm fine with that.

    quote:

    CHA
    Mitigate some of the upcoming increase to guest upkeep cost

    This is tricky because as I mentioned in the earlier part of my post, I really hope that guest upkeep costs doesn't get increased to such a significant amount. But if anything, 250 CHA should mitigate the increase completely IMO (basically the same costs we have now at max CHA)

    quote:

    LUK
    Increased immobility resistance

    Interesting though not sure how useful, +1 for now till I see or think of better ideas.

    quote:

    The first is pretty simple: take a -1.5 BTH lean (about +1.5% damage) whenever you hit, and a +8.5 BTH lean whenever you miss. This is pretty easy to explain: you get more accurate against dodgy targets and more powerful versus targets that give the broad side of a barn some competition. It can also function as a way to ramp up damage over combat without the massive drop on round 1, plus it'll combo nicely with the BTH lean expertise above.

    The second is "the nuclear option" of turning Rangers into skillcasters. Non-skill weapon attacks take -25% damage and you regen [25% Melee] SP per turn, with no penalty for skill attacks. This won't mean much by itself and we'll have to change how we make Ranged options, with more built-in skills or "pay SP to X" options. We're a bit uneasy about this -- it might lead to us needing new standards for Ranged skills or something we currently can't foresee -- but if it's something you all like then we'd be willing to give it a shot.

    Both ideas seem appealing to me, same for the current bandaid change actually. Really on the fence about which one I'd like best if we can only pick one but I think I might lean towards the second "nuclear" option. Though the second option might seem a bit similar to the Warrior idea I supported earlier.
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 3
    6/4/2023 4:15:09   
    Lv 1000
    Member


    		 Note: I am only posting my thoughts regarding the proposed changes. Do not expect responses.

    quote:

    STR
    Increase existing bonus to +10% weapon damage.
    One of the following:
    > Regenerate [10% Melee] in SP whenever you perform a weapon-based skill
    > Heal [10% Melee] in HP whenever you attack weapon a weapon
    Enable "warrior lean": FD armours deal 100% outdoing damage and take 80% incoming damage.

    The damage increase and the "Warrior Lean" idea are certainly things that the Warrior archetype needs to stay competitive. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of direct healing being a bonus from stats. I'm not sure what STR should get instead at this point in time (might edit this post if I think of something).

    quote:

    DEX
    Enable BTH lean expertise: the downside of BTH leans is mitigated by up to 25% on all weapon attacks and spells.
    > Example: at +20 BTH lean, you normally gain +20 BTH and deal 81% damage. With full DEX, this becomes +20 BTH and deal 86% damage.
    > Example: at -20 BTH lean, you normally deal 131% damage and take -20 BTH. With full DEX, this becomes 131% damage and take -15 BTH.
    Increase the blocking bonus to +6


    Ranged Stat Identity

    It's pretty clear you all hate the current "increase damage as the battle goes on" mechanic. I've since improved it a little:
    Old: damage starts at 75% and increases by 6% per turn, to a max of 129%.
    New: damage starts at 80% and increases by 7% per turn. After the 10th turn (at 143% damage), damage increases by 3.5% per turn indefinitely.

    More blocking is fairly generic, but sometimes it's the simple things that make the most sense. I also like the "BtH Lean Expertise" idea, however, I think that we'd need more items with larger positive/negative BtH leans for the effects of this to be felt.

    As for the seemingly endless discussion regarding "Ranged Stat Identity", I honestly think that the simple buff to the damage-ramp model works just fine. With this change the player is dealing at least 100% normal damage after the 3rd turn, compared to now in which it happens after the 5th turn, which is effectively a 40% buff overall. However, I am concerned about the infinite ramping, the extra 3.5% beyond turn-10 should probably be capped to 10 extra turns with the scaling cut in half (so +7% for 10 turns, then +1.75% for 10 turns). This brings ranged attacks to 160% of normal damage after 20 turns, which is insane to think about. As for the presented alternatives, I don't like either of them as much as the buffed damage-ramp model.

    quote:

    INT
    Regenerate [10% Melee] in MP whenever you cast a spell/SPell

    Like I said for STR, I'm not a fan of direct healing as a bonus for stats. However, for INT, I think that generating a small Barrier whenever the player casts a spell is a good alternative.

    quote:

    At the very least guests need their SP cost upped. We're still discussing the exact cost but it's probably gonna be 20% - 30% Melee, with 30% - 40% Melee for booster guests. Sadly guest cost is hardcoded to each guest and can't be easily adjusted by a game engine patch; thus my project! Once this gets fixed we'll also update pet BTH to use [MainStat] and CHA rather than DEX and CHA; guests are currently set to use purely CHA but switching them to use [MainStat] and CHA is also on the table.

    CHA
    Mitigate some of the upcoming increase to guest upkeep cost

    Given that CHA is meant to mitigate the cost increase, I doubt that Guest costs will be significantly higher than they are right now (21.875% melee). As for Guest BtH scaling, I think that both Pets and Guests should use [MainStat] + CHA for accuracy.

    quote:

    LUK
    Increased immobility resistance

    While this would be equivalent to about +40 immobility resistance, I'm not really sure how much mileage the player would get out of an effect like this outside of a handful of monsters. Something like a 5-10% chance (at 250 LUK) to auto-win normal save rolls would be a more interesting effect (if possible to code).

    < Message edited by Lv 1000 -- 6/4/2023 4:58:43 >
    Post #: 4
    6/4/2023 4:33:18   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    quote:

    The second is "the nuclear option" of turning Rangers into skillcasters. Non-skill weapon attacks take -25% damage and you regen [25% Melee] SP per turn, with no penalty for skill attacks. This won't mean much by itself and we'll have to change how we make Ranged options, with more built-in skills or "pay SP to X" options. We're a bit uneasy about this -- it might lead to us needing new standards for Ranged skills or something we currently can't foresee -- but if it's something you all like then we'd be willing to give it a shot.


    I'm voting for this one.

    It's radical, but given the sheer lack of ranger identity, we need something radical to make them stand out.


    Edit: It also works nicely for FD beastrangers when combined with the increased guest upkeep. Double win!
    AQ DF  Post #: 5
    6/4/2023 4:58:20   
    Broccoli
    Member

    quote:

    Regenerate [10% Melee] in SP whenever you perform a weapon-based skill
    quote:

    Regenerate [10% Melee] in MP whenever you cast a spell/SPell
    quote:

    Non-skill weapon attacks take -25% damage and you regen [25% Melee] SP per turn

    These would be extremely damaging to the game, the same way EO is.
    Post #: 6
    6/4/2023 4:59:38   
    Dardiel
    Member

    		Always happy to see a dev update, it's fun to get a peek behind the curtain every not and then.

    Strength: I think of the 3 listed options the SP regeneration sounds nicest, I agree with Korriban that HP feels more like an END thing and my personal stance on the lean is "if I'm going defensive lean, I'm not looking to gain flat damage"

    Dexterity: The idea of mitigating range lean downsides feels off to me but I'll just assume that it's because I don't know the math behind it - in particular regarding the effective damage of weapons with -20 lean compared to weapons with -10 lean or even 0 lean. I'll just let the experts handle that one.

    Integer: MP regeneration sounds reasonable, I do like the idea of the regeneration being attached to weapon attacks rather than spells because it feels like then there's motivation to do both and I can imagine there would be less weird cases of "I'm going to spam this weird cheap spell to get mana back, instead of following the model of X spells Y attacks".

    Endurance: [Inplemented]

    Charisma: I've seen opinions that tying costs to Charisma makes a sort of exponential scaling (eg at 0 CHA your guests are costing twice as much to have half the impact) and I agree that it does sound imbalanced - however I also have no idea how to do it better, so I'll assume that whatever gets done was decided on by people that know more than I do.

    Luck: Immobility resistance feels more like an END thing to me - getting a bonus on lucky strikes (eg recover SP equal to [10% Melee]*[Lucky hits]/[Total hits]/[LS Rate] each turn) feels like it might be fun but potentially abusable, or something that's weaker but more general like a little bit of status potence might feel like it makes more sense to really consider when choosing which stats to get.

    Ranged Identity: My favor is entirely won by the change to make ranged damage scale indefinitely and it's my favorite thing that I've read in this post (though I also was vaguely positive about the initial change, so I'm obviously not speaking for more than myself) - in the case that changes are still going to be made, I like the lean scaling option since it also allows scaling damage and feels more tailored to the style than giving more SP. edit: I figure I could/should re-state that I think weapon lean should be accounted for when determining how much to raise/lower the bth/damage by for hits and misses; if the system doesn't care about weapon lean then the ranger identity quickly eliminates that aspect of weapon choice, whereas if accuracy-lean weapons gain more bth but lose it slower while damage-lean weapons gain bth slower but drop it faster (for more damage) there would be advantages and disadvantages to all lean options that can maintain relevance throughout a fight.

    Overall very great, glad things are being done thoughtfully, looking forward to future updates!

    < Message edited by Dardiel -- 6/4/2023 14:06:57 >
    Post #: 7
    6/4/2023 5:06:36   
    CH4OT1C!
    Member

    		Similar to @LV 1000, I'll just be posting my immediate thoughts.

    quote:


    STR
    Increase existing bonus to +10% weapon damage.
    One of the following:
    > Regenerate [10% Melee] in SP whenever you perform a weapon-based skill
    > Heal [10% Melee] in HP whenever you attack weapon a weapon
    Enable "warrior lean": FD armours deal 100% outdoing damage and take 80% incoming damage.

    Similar to @LV 1000, I'm not fond of the idea of player directly healing resources from stats directly (the heal resistance from END is ok since that isn't direct). That said, I'd also add that I'm not at all fond of tying SP closer to any particular mainstat. SP is meant to be build-agnostic, and we're already putting mage at a disadvantage. I wouldn't that gap to be made any wider than is absolutely necessary. I'll try and come up with my own solution to the STR bonus and post in due course
    I also fully support the damage increase and 'Warrior Lean'!


    quote:


    DEX
    Enable BTH lean expertise: the downside of BTH leans is mitigated by up to 25% on all weapon attacks and spells.
    > Example: at +20 BTH lean, you normally gain +20 BTH and deal 81% damage. With full DEX, this becomes +20 BTH and deal 86% damage.
    > Example: at -20 BTH lean, you normally deal 131% damage and take -20 BTH. With full DEX, this becomes 131% damage and take -15 BTH.
    Increase the blocking bonus to +6

    Old: damage starts at 75% and increases by 6% per turn, to a max of 129%.
    New: damage starts at 80% and increases by 7% per turn. After the 10th turn (at 143% damage), damage increases by 3.5% per turn indefinitely.

    This is probably not going to win your favour, so we have two options we'd like you to consider:

    The first is pretty simple: take a -1.5 BTH lean (about +1.5% damage) whenever you hit, and a +8.5 BTH lean whenever you miss. This is pretty easy to explain: you get more accurate against dodgy targets and more powerful versus targets that give the broad side of a barn some competition. It can also function as a way to ramp up damage over combat without the massive drop on round 1, plus it'll combo nicely with the BTH lean expertise above.

    The second is "the nuclear option" of turning Rangers into skillcasters. Non-skill weapon attacks take -25% damage and you regen [25% Melee] SP per turn, with no penalty for skill attacks. This won't mean much by itself and we'll have to change how we make Ranged options, with more built-in skills or "pay SP to X" options. We're a bit uneasy about this -- it might lead to us needing new standards for Ranged skills or something we currently can't foresee -- but if it's something you all like then we'd be willing to give it a shot.

    The bonus looks ok - the stat revamp is inevitably a long-term project because a lot of the problems come down to items rather than the stats themselves. It might not be noticeable outright, but introducing more high-lean items in the future would make this bonus way more relevant.

    I think simply buffing the ramp isn't really the issue... it's much more about the ramp itself from my perspective. I'd rather see the bth adjustment system alternative - it's thematic for rangers and it can synergise with the bth lean expertise really well.

    I really want to emphasise that the 'nuclear option' is something I'm deeply against, for multiple reasons
    1). SP is build agnostic. This would, in all explicit terms, make SP essentially Ranger resource
    2). Even the fact it wouldn't be explicit is problematic - it's a defining build characteristic that other builds can access. It's like non-INT users having enough MP to cast spells.
    3). Supposing this was done, Ranger would become a Pseudo-mage using a different resource bar. The idea of SP regenerating is nowhere near substantial enough to distinguish it from a cannon setup like Mage. It's radical, but it certainly wouldn't make them stand out much
    4). Where would this leave Warriors? How would they compete with the other two builds able to play more offensively than them when (currently) all Warrior has available to them is a FO playstyle?

    It's a complete non-starter for me. It's a significant backtracking on what we currently have. I can't foresee even a medium-term scenario where a skill-based Ranger setup could work without it causing severe damage to every other build. It would be particularly bad for Warrior - maybe enough items could be released in the long-term to open up some sort of small niche. That said, until that point, Warrior would be almost completely cast adrift.

    quote:


    INT
    Regenerate [10% Melee] in MP whenever you cast a spell/SPell

    Same as before, I don't think direct healing is the way to go. The barrier idea is quite interesting - I'll also have a think around a possible alternative.


    Beyond that - the increase to guest costs won't be popular with everyone, but is pretty inevitable from my perspective. They're one of the single most unbalanced things in the game - I say that both mathematically and from practical experience in-game. I don't like the idea of mitigating the increased cost with CHA - it would be double dipping since they already scale based on CHA for damage and accuracy. It would be akin to reducing MP costs based on whether you had INT. It also has some funky implications for the few guests that don't take CHA as a mainstat. On top of that, it's a SP-related benefit tied to a stat, something I've already stated opposition to.
    The proposed pet accuracy changes make sense

    < Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 6/4/2023 8:05:41 >
    AQ  Post #: 8
    6/4/2023 7:55:20   
    LUPUL LUNATIC
    Member
     

    		 Im gonna leave my feedback here regarding the changes :

    quote:

    STR
    Increase existing bonus to +10% weapon damage.
    One of the following:
    > Regenerate [10% Melee] in SP whenever you perform a weapon-based skill
    > Heal [10% Melee] in HP whenever you attack weapon a weapon
    Enable "warrior lean": FD armours deal 100% outdoing damage and take 80% incoming damage.



    I like the heal 10% melee in HP whenever we attack with a weapon because Warriors need survivability and i like the idea of END Warriors having more Defensive things, and it can work well even with a FO lean. Warrior lean is also an interesting choice though i am quite used to FO at the moment i can see it being good however if we get the HP Heal 10% upon attacking with a weapon i think it gets less appealing for me personally.

    quote:

    DEX
    Enable BTH lean expertise: the downside of BTH leans is mitigated by up to 25% on all weapon attacks and spells.
    > Example: at +20 BTH lean, you normally gain +20 BTH and deal 81% damage. With full DEX, this becomes +20 BTH and deal 86% damage.
    > Example: at -20 BTH lean, you normally deal 131% damage and take -20 BTH. With full DEX, this becomes 131% damage and take -15 BTH.
    Increase the blocking bonus to +6


    I like the blocking increase even though its bland, and bth lean expertise looks cool even though we probably would need more items that do this in order to become good but this is not a concern.

    quote:

    Ranged Stat Identity

    It's pretty clear you all hate the current "increase damage as the battle goes on" mechanic. I've since improved it a little:
    Old: damage starts at 75% and increases by 6% per turn, to a max of 129%.
    New: damage starts at 80% and increases by 7% per turn. After the 10th turn (at 143% damage), damage increases by 3.5% per turn indefinitely.

    This is probably not going to win your favour, so we have two options we'd like you to consider:

    The first is pretty simple: take a -1.5 BTH lean (about +1.5% damage) whenever you hit, and a +8.5 BTH lean whenever you miss. This is pretty easy to explain: you get more accurate against dodgy targets and more powerful versus targets that give the broad side of a barn some competition. It can also function as a way to ramp up damage over combat without the massive drop on round 1, plus it'll combo nicely with the BTH lean expertise above.

    The second is "the nuclear option" of turning Rangers into skillcasters. Non-skill weapon attacks take -25% damage and you regen [25% Melee] SP per turn, with no penalty for skill attacks. This won't mean much by itself and we'll have to change how we make Ranged options, with more built-in skills or "pay SP to X" options. We're a bit uneasy about this -- it might lead to us needing new standards for Ranged skills or something we currently can't foresee -- but if it's something you all like then we'd be willing to give it a shot.


    I like the nuclear option even though it turns Rangers into SP Mages i think they become way more versatile because of SP usage this way and be better than they currently are.

    quote:

    INT
    Regenerate [10% Melee] in MP whenever you cast a spell/SPell


    I have to agree here that it makes more sense Mages to regen MP on their weapon attack rather than Spells.

    quote:

    CHA
    Mitigate some of the upcoming increase to guest upkeep cost


    I definitely like this though i wonder what will happen with elemental booster guests since they only require 25% CHA hoping this wont make them very SP/MP cost heavy.


    I am fine with the other changes planned and with pet+guest BTH being compund [MainStat] + CHA.
    AQ  Post #: 9
    6/4/2023 8:52:24   
    Dreiko Shadrack
    Member

    		Something something feedback without direct replies to others.

    quote:

    STR
    - Increase existing bonus to +10% weapon damage.
    - One of the following:
    - > Regenerate [10% Melee] in SP whenever you perform a weapon-based skill
    - > Heal [10% Melee] in HP whenever you attack weapon a weapon
    - Enable "warrior lean": FD armours deal 100% outdoing damage and take 80% incoming damage.


    I dislike both of those options, direct heals from stats should be avoided at all costs, the ramifications and consequences of that are beyond what even I can list at the moment. Frankly I don't even like the idea of an "indirect" heal like barrier coming directly from a stat, but if we absolutely must pick a form of healing bonus from stats then if we go for barrier then hp healing would be similarly on the table...but then that creates two stats that have a healing bonus and one that doesn't and that doesn't sit right with me either.
    The whole concept is just too conflicting and problematic to really be considered if we want to keep things fair after the fact, I'm otherwise mostly fine with the increase in weapon damage and the implementation of the pseudo lean for warriors. Both of those are already very powerful and far reaching in what they provide even if they aren't "flashy" in how they do it (even if I already have issues with messing with the baseline stat damage of Melee as it is due to the fact that everything in the game is based around said value).

    quote:

    DEX
    Enable BTH lean expertise: the downside of BTH leans is mitigated by up to 25% on all weapon attacks and spells.
    > Example: at +20 BTH lean, you normally gain +20 BTH and deal 81% damage. With full DEX, this becomes +20 BTH and deal 86% damage.
    > Example: at -20 BTH lean, you normally deal 131% damage and take -20 BTH. With full DEX, this becomes 131% damage and take -15 BTH.


    This could work, we'll need specific itemization to really make it shine but that's relatively easy to accomplish so it's of not much concern.

    Edit: This is apparently not part of the 20% bonus for DEX, at which point I simply cannot agree with it. Warriors have no modifier to their Identity, which is why the pseudo lean as such a modifier and thus not part of the 20% is okay. The same cannot be said of DEX's ramp identity which is one giant modifier itself and as such to even consider lean expertise it necessarily needs to be part of the 20%.

    quote:

    Increase the blocking bonus to +6


    I don't like blocking coming from mainstats and I never have, it's already very suspiciously valued as it is and it gives DEX in particular the characteristic of "the block/dodge stat" on top rather than allowing for that sort of item and build support to be able to be encouraged for all mainstats equally.

    quote:

    INT
    Regenerate [10% Melee] in MP whenever you cast a spell/SPell


    Same thing as I mentioned above, we should avoid direct or indirect healing bonuses from mainstats.

    quote:

    END
    [Implemented] Increased status resistance
    [Implemented] Increased heal resistance


    I'm generally okay with END having these, even if the heal resistance in particular has some...odd interactions that don't seem entirely intended to be happening but that's something to review.

    quote:

    CHA
    Mitigate some of the upcoming increase to guest upkeep cost


    I'm fine with this given we're increasing guest upkeeps baseline and guests are effectively the specific items of CHA (CHA scaling weapons/skills were a mistake that can't be removed now), it makes sense that you are encouraged to have the stat and this is a decent solution to that.

    quote:

    Once this gets fixed we'll also update pet BTH to use [MainStat] and CHA rather than DEX and CHA; guests are currently set to use purely CHA but switching them to use [MainStat] and CHA is also on the table.


    I still think that pets have a real [issue] relating to baseline accuracy according to the core assumptions and this while being a necessary change doesn't address it. As for guests, given my above point of them being the specific items of CHA I'd be entirely okay with them scaling with nothing but that, I can accept them using [Mainstat] + CHA though.

    quote:

    LUK
    Increased immobility resistance


    I personally think LUK already affects way too many things in the game, it doesn't need to affect more things, it just needs to have the things it already does affect to be re-evaluated.

    quote:

    Ranged Stat Identity

    It's pretty clear you all hate the current "increase damage as the battle goes on" mechanic. I've since improved it a little:
    Old: damage starts at 75% and increases by 6% per turn, to a max of 129%.
    New: damage starts at 80% and increases by 7% per turn. After the 10th turn (at 143% damage), damage increases by 3.5% per turn indefinitely.


    Ramping being based on turns can never feel good regardless of what numbers are given to it and that's been my stance on it pretty much since its introduction, having only supported it in the past due to my inability to see another option for the identity back then.

    quote:

    The first is pretty simple: take a -1.5 BTH lean (about +1.5% damage) whenever you hit, and a +8.5 BTH lean whenever you miss. This is pretty easy to explain: you get more accurate against dodgy targets and more powerful versus targets that give the broad side of a barn some competition. It can also function as a way to ramp up damage over combat without the massive drop on round 1, plus it'll combo nicely with the BTH lean expertise above.


    Given my previous posts on the matter during the process of the stat revamp it's clear that this would be my preferred solution.

    quote:

    The second is "the nuclear option" of turning Rangers into skillcasters. Non-skill weapon attacks take -25% damage and you regen [25% Melee] SP per turn, with no penalty for skill attacks. This won't mean much by itself and we'll have to change how we make Ranged options, with more built-in skills or "pay SP to X" options. We're a bit uneasy about this -- it might lead to us needing new standards for Ranged skills or something we currently can't foresee -- but if it's something you all like then we'd be willing to give it a shot.


    This more than anything should NOT be considered, we'd be effectively creating a second mage playstyle with a different resource bar and destroying the build agnosticism of sp in one fell swoop as well as making sure that no one would ever want to play Warrior again necessitating that they too be turned into some kind of mage playstyle. This is the absolute last thing that we need in my opinion.

    < Message edited by Dreiko Shadrack -- 6/4/2023 13:14:54 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 10
    6/4/2023 9:09:35   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		I want to first address something that I think needs a change of plans before putting my personal thoughts on the specifics.

    Given how life can throw obstacles at us, I would like to recommend the following:

    A. Change plans to implement the stat revamp in phases rather than waiting for all work to be complete. This will provide some excitement and give more reasons for players to play the game rather than waiting potentially forever. For example, if the warrior identity changes are finalized, roll them out now. This can help provide feedback as other aspects get tended to and planned for and help perhaps reveal the need for tweaks. These rollouts will provide more fun and excitement for the player base than most normal weekly releases. Maybe this has to happen during very very light weeks, as I likely continue to not grasp the sheer amount of work staff does week in and week out, but if you can manage to piece-meal the changes I think it will be better than waiting and rolling everything out at once for the players.

    B. Since the guest migration is the largest undertaking, and as a part of "A" above, I request that the BTH plan for pets/guests get implemented as we wait on the guest migration to finalize later. It's simply time already.



    As for the specifics of the plan:

    Warriors/STR:
    I'm personally fine with the increase in warrior damage based on STR. The one thing to me that seems out of place is the Warrior Lean idea. This isn't about the stat revamp itself, rather it's a new lean meant for warriors. I think the idea can be tested and an armor made and see where it goes, but I think it would need to be a separate plan outside of, and in addition to the other things that are on the table and not something that's considered as an "or". I personally think the SP heal mechanic needs to go towards Rangers, and not Warriors. I like the idea of a HP barrier post-melee attack. Making warriors "hardier" due to in-close combat action seems like the most logical thing to me. We already have a bonus to healing from END and having END on a warrior is a more logical training step even compared to the other two foundational builds.

    HOWEVER, much like I have suggested in the past, and maybe this is viewed as a non-starter, but why not reward STR/DEX/INT with a bonus *if* you partner it with END? So in this case, warriors can only receive the HP barrier if they also have END and the barrier amount is maybe half scaling from STR and half from END? But is 0 if STR or END is 0. While we are attempting to incentivize hybridization, I also think incentivizing mainstat+END is a cool idea, too.


    Mages/INT: 10% Melee in MP regen is 65 MP per spell cast. Battle #1 is assumed to cast 2 spells, so we have 130 MP regained. Battle #2 is the same, for 260 MP regained. This MP gained back I feel will not serve to do much. They only have 20 MP left anyway, so 280 MP left is something that I don't think will serve Mages at all. This almost feels like "let's throw something random onto the INT identity because they've received nothing thus far". I'm not advocating for more MP for a 5th cast, but I don't see how this helps. In addition, each stat gaining approx 20% worth of bonuses then giving INT 10% instead seems inconsistent. Maybe there needs to be some clarity in that INT doesn't need 20%, but if not, then give INT 20% as it says.
    I don't have a solution for Mages. Or any ideas, other than maybe a HP barrier post spell cast *if* they also have END. Because while I want to incentivize spellcasting, I also think MP regen is a tad bit too easy as it is and at the end of the day, I think there needs to be things happening with items to manage this. Chaotic has discussed it but Mages being skill-casters just as good as warriors due to the 4/3'ds bonus is an issue and it sounds like won't be tackled. SO maybe instead there just needs to be something else, or a lot of something else's. Creative item design might need to happen, which sort of is cringe because that means it's going to take forever to do as new items can only happen so much and who they're catered-for is spread out over time. But spell Imbues that add effects need to happen. I think we need an entire quest similar to warriors tower or Wizard games, etc to release many. They also need a generic updated Sila's staff-like spell booster item. They need rejuv necklace-like items but maybe work for casting spells. They need more items like seraph calamity, et al. And I think wands need a relook. IMO, wands should be generic spell-boosters even if it's paid for within the attack side of the wand. These are what Mages/INT need.


    CHA/Beast Builds:
    As mentioned above, I think the BTH thing needs an immediate change. And continue the guest migration after the fact. I also think it makes the most sense to keep guest BTH CHA only. If guest upkeep is increased by a huge amount, you've effectively disincentivized their use if you don't have CHA, so why even bother making it mainstat+CHA? It'd be pointless in practice. The guest upkeep being between 20-30% is actually a rather large range, and 20% Sp is 78 and 30% is 118. For MP that's 131 and 196. For boosters, if it's 40% we're talking 157 Sp and 261 MP per turn to use them.

    If you make them cost 30% Melee w/o CHA and 20% Melee with 250 CHA, I could go for this. For SP, that's actually lower than now. (From 86 to 78) For MP, it's higher. (From 114 to 131) But 131 makes sense. 131*20 turns=2620MP. 4 mage spell casts are 653*4=2612. So it's close. This is CHA's 10% bonus. I think the 20%-30% ranged needs to mean 30% w/o CHA and 20% w/ CHA.

    Now, for boosters... you're going to kill boosters for non-beast builds. Not only will they get the FULL damage with 250 CHA but gain also gain a smaller cost to boot? Something has to give. I propose a complete change to how boosters work if you can't find a happy middle ground on booster cost..ie maybe using mainstat for some cost help.

    But here's the booster idea:

    If booster cost is to remain so high, yet still get lowered cost from CHA training, then the following IMO should happen: (A complete redesign)

    A. Change boosters to be two-fold. All of them should cost in SP/MP per turn in Melee% the exact amount of damage bonus they provide. So lower the bonus to +30% damage for 30% Melee upkeep.
    B. This means if you have CHA and the upkeep cost is lowered to 20% Melee, the damage bonus is also lowered to +20% Melee. So BM's cannot use them better than non-BM's for damage (on this toggle), but get the benefit of lower upkeep.
    C. Give boosters a toggle, to change them to pet/guest boost mode. Here's how this works:
    1. If you have a booster guest, the toggle charges the upkeep to provide the pet with the same boost. So for a BM, it's 20% Melee cost to increase pet damage by +20%. For a non BM it's charges 30% cost for +30% pet damage. For a pet that's a booster, it's a straight +40% added to your guest. (damage is transferred to the guest) and no upkeep. Booster pets on non-BM mode is +20% damage across the board.

    In other words, boosters guests need changed to be worth HALF the normal value of guests due to it boosting player damage. There are already a crazy amount of sources to boost player damage as it stands. This nerf to damage probably needs to happen anyway to disincentivize CHA builds from outperforming non CHA build's use of them.


    Dex/Rangers:
    I'm a proponent of skillcasting here. You can still have some type of lean identity, as skillcasting will be effect-focused and landing hits is necessary for most effects. However, I would rather simply see a 20% bonus to SP heal per turn if you used a Ranged weapon, and no regen or discount to skills post-cast. The 20% bonus IMO is easier to manage this way rather than trying to figure out what that looks like post skill-cast. But I'm rather OK if that's the direction they want. Skill-casting will actually provide far more unique identity away from warriors than anything and everything else proposed. And the naysayers worried about build agnosticism due to a not-so realistic 20 turn model are going to overstate the "implications" of going this route while providing no actual scenario or data backing it up. (Unless someone actually does but I haven't seen it yet in all these discussions going on for months/years thus far) It will prove to be more beneficial to fun than hurtful to balance, I believe.

    Also, I'm still a bit biased on my Dex/25% auto-hit "precision hit" mechanic that's an effective 10% accuracy boost and this should be implemented on monsters, too. No damage penalty. This also provides for item support creation in that you can have armors/weapons with things like +5% Precision hit rate, etc.




    < Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 6/4/2023 9:51:37 >
    Post #: 11
    6/4/2023 10:12:04   
    Kaizoku
    Member

    		The one thing that has bothered me about AQ for years has been the demand to turn Warrior into a second Mage. All nuke armors, all nuke weapons, all nuke skills... Which would then be used by Mages as well since SP is a universal resource. While the idea of a "warrior lean" or "tank warrior" provides a different style of gameplay I fear there's not a decent amount of incentive for turtling beyond challenge bosses. That being said I would still find it preferable for every build to have its own niche like that.
    AQ DF MQ  Post #: 12
    6/4/2023 11:45:53   
    Corvid
    Member

    		It seems like the regen of resources is to incentivize “intended” playstyles, ie mages being spellcasters, warriors being weapon attackers, rangers being defensive/accurate weapon users.

    The current solution is to give free resources which has downsides of a) power creep and b) removing the build-agnostic role of sp

    Instead of free resource regen for using the intended playstyle, I’d propose something similar but different. This would be toggles for resource *conversion.* when using an intended playstyle, at a rate that is equivalent in %melee.

    Some examples: use of a spell allows for a toggle that, when casting spell, generates a mana shield that converts mana to HP at an equal ratio, or a toggle that converts HP to mana. Use of a melee or ranged weapon attack allows for a toggle to covert SP to a chi shield an equal ratio or, HP to SP.

    This solution wouldn’t be free resources, it would be giving options for resource exchange to incentivize the build’s appropriate play styles. It would enable more skillful playstyles for all builds regarding tending to appropriate resource levels as the fight progresses. Essentially this solution opens up skillful resource plasticity as a reward for using a build’s intended playstyle, rather than resource inflation.

    < Message edited by Corvid -- 6/4/2023 11:54:00 >
    AQ  Post #: 13
    6/4/2023 12:54:38   
    Aura Knight
    Member

    quote:

    > Regenerate [10% Melee] in SP whenever you perform a weapon-based skill


    I think this would help more than the other options. A slight boost to sp regen will be a nice benefit. Healing's not too needed and messing more with armor leans can get confusing.

    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 14
    6/4/2023 15:51:32   
    dr jo
    Member

    		First fix Dex from pets accuracy PLEASE
    Then change Def armours to give 100% damage and receive 80% damage maybe get extra like 5 extra sp heal line werewolf.
    For bows split damage to multi hit eg 2/3 hits to equal 100%
    Dex like mrm boost idea
    AQ  Post #: 15
    6/4/2023 17:41:08   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		Edited- In response to the below post

    @ Below-> I am worried that the ideas being pitched back and forth on discord for Ranger while may be mathematically different on the back end, will seemingly feel very little difference to warriors in reality to the average game player.

    I am also worried that the warrior lean is stepping on FD Ranger's toes.

    I am worried that current discord discussions , which seem to focus on accuracy translating to more damage, means they're not considering the FD Ranger.

    I am worried that rewarding landing hits meaning more damage is double dipping and will lead to front-loading BTH boosters to avoid downsides that on paper, should be there. Players will always find a way , remember. So you need something that can define Rangers w/o exploitation.

    In my opinion, the proposal should be considering both the FO Ranger, and the likely premiere of the archtype, the FD Ranger.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    At the end of the day, if we wanted to make Ranger it's own unique gameplay style..one that differentiates from the others, it *has to* likely be a heavy user of SP. And of that's the case, it will need some SP help.

    The notion that SP is build agnostic and always should be I find to be clinging onto past ideas as if staff has no ability to think past it and come up with a balanced solution. The "nuclear option", at least something somewhat resembling it, is the *only* way to actually make Ranger unique.

    While I'm not so sure on the specifics of the proposal mentioned, I do feel skill-caster is the BEST way to go. Even if we are pushing Rangers to be a bit more "SP Mage". But I think it should be a mjulti-faceted approach.

    SP is spirit points, but really, it's for SKILLS and really should be viewed as SKILL POINTS. Skill generally requires dexterity (The real life definition) So to me, and it's always been how I've felt, the efficient usage of SKILL POINTS for someone who's trained DEXTERITY should be the way to go.

    I would ensure Rangers have the SP help. I would ensure that their damage is lower than a warriors. I would ensure the damage identity is focused on accuracy, so that they have higher accuracy than warriors. Accuracy will help ensure status inflictions for the FD Ranger.
    This is why I propose the Dex/25% Rate Precision Hit newfound mechanic. It's penalty-less auto hit at 10% rate @ 250 Dex. That's an effective +10% accuracy bonus. It's pretty much akin to +8.5% BTH. It's a 10% bonus, out of the 20% allotment. This also goes for all attacks, and monsters. It's translated over to hybrids w/ Dex. It's minorly counters the OP dodge mechanic of players. It literally helps with Ranger identity, hybrids may like it, and gives monsters something for Dex that they never had.


    My revised Ranger Proposal:
    quote:

    ~Precision hit mechanic. (Goes for all attacks to bring to hybrids, and also to monsters) Dex/25% auto-hit w/o penalty. Can maybe cap this at 300 (outleveler) This is an effective +10% BTH boost. (This does not count towards the +20% bonus. It's a new mechanic to help shape the Ranger.)
    ~ Accuracy lean damage identity. Round 1 starts at +7.5 BTH and takes appropriate damage penalty. Hits lose 2.5 BTH on the next attack, but gain appropriate damage. Misses gain BTH, but lose damage on next attack. The lean change identity is the only identity with a built in balance system when focusing on accuracy. If you reward accuracy with damage, it's double dipping. And, frontloading BTH boosters will become meta to counter the supposed-to-be-there downside.
    ~Remove blocking bonus. Ranger's defensive help will not come from stats but rather from status inflictions, due to higher accuracy (and thus, attempted status inflictions)

    The 20%:
    ~+15% SP discount or regen per turn help
    ~Initiative 105 (+50% damage bonus if you win initiative; This is 5% counted out over 10 turns. This initiative will not only partner well with FO Rangers, who will have the starting accuracy bonus, but it will also give FD Rangers "the drop" as they're using bows from a distance, and have a desire to begin each battle crippling the monster (their defense) while also allowing for bows>wands when it comes to comparative analysis. (Not stackable with armors that have this)

    Item Support:
    ~ Creation of Efficient imbues, that are Dex inflicted statuses attached to Rangers bows and spears. These will come in a variety of things that both add effects, increase damage, accuracy, and can be made to accentuate both FO and FD playstyles. An efficient skill should be *roughly 157 SP* and add 40% Melee in power worth of an effect to their weapons. *This* is the "skill-cast".

    What you will have here, then, IMO, is a rather outstanding archtype that in both unique to the others, but strong.


    < Message edited by SapphireCatalyst2021 -- 6/5/2023 8:44:39 >
    Post #: 16
    6/5/2023 2:39:59   
    Primate Murder
    Member

    		Ok, I have the time for a longer post now.

    Fair warning, it's going to be controversial.

    ***

    First of all, I've read Saphire's post and, surprisingly, he's right about the Int bonus. Mages are overpowered right now, we all know that, but the stat must still remain in line with the others, mathematically speaking. I would suggest a minor change, though: instead of regaining mp on attacks, mages get a passive chance to regain a spell's worth of mp each round, with the chance increased after spellcasting. As an example: 10% chance to regain mp at the end of each round, with +5% chance added for the rest of the battle each time you cast a spell. If you already have >75% mp bar, you instead gain Regain Mana status.

    It won't be something to rely on, but it'll certainly make someone smile each time it happens.


    ***

    Warrior Lean. It's a very interesting idea, and certainly something worth investigating, but not right now. At this moment, FD lean is the only thing that's at least semi-unique to Rangers. Letting warriors use it freely only works if rangers get something to make them distinct in return.

    ***

    Now, on Dex:

    I see there's a lot of pushback on the sp idea, so I won't mention it further. That said, the alternatives are not very appealing:

    - Ramping, alas, doesn't really work. Aside from the twenty-turn model - which is only present on paper - it doesn't support either FO or FD rangers. The former, by their nature, need to end the fight 25% sooner; the latter will never match FO builds in damage and the ramp does nothing for aiding status play.

    - Bth lean mitigation relies on extreme leans; for 99% of weapons in the game it does nothing.

    - Accuracy modifier removes agency from the player - which I heavily oppose - and, again, does little to aid FD rangers, as status-inflicting attacks need steady accuracy and benefit little from extra damage.

    Finally, it should be noted that neither of the latter two really establishes a ranger identity beyond being a warrior with a little bth weirdness. What we really need is something that affects how the rangers actually play the game, something major.

    I'm not sure this is enough, but I suggested a pseudo-celerity effect before, akin to Archer's Per My Last Arrow. As an example: all ranged attacks take -20% damage penalty; combined with the 20% passive bonus, that allows them to repeat every second attack.


    It doesn't have to be my idea that's implemented, but I heavily encourage the players to offer suggestions that noticeably alter the ranger's playing style, expand their choices, hell, change the action economy.

    It's called 100% melee, after all, not 100% ranged!
    AQ DF  Post #: 17
    6/5/2023 12:11:20   
    Korriban Gaming
    Banned


    		 After a bit of discussion as well as seeing some of the other feedback here, I have some points to add on.

    It seems that for STR, there's a pretty even split among those who like the SP regen idea and those who don't.
    quote:

    SP is meant to be build-agnostic, and we're already putting mage at a disadvantage. I wouldn't that gap to be made any wider than is absolutely necessary.

    I'm a Mage user myself and honestly I really don't mind this and don't feel like we're at a disadvantage tbh. Outside of just looking at the numbers on paper, I still see Mage as being extremely viable even after the changes that the other builds will get.

    Personally I'm still in full support of the SP regen idea out of the 3 proposed and I relooked at the idea for Warrior lean. I feel like it would be better for the Warrior lean to apply to all armors and make them deal 125% outgoing damage and take 80% incoming damage. This seems more appealing to me as opposed to limiting the benefits to only FD armors on top of having only 100% damage (which is base damage). Thematicallly I think it also makes sense in the sense that Warriors are stereotyped to be wearing big, bulky armors that provide an insane amount of protection. Proficiency with said heavy armor not only allows them to reap the benefits of extra protection but also make use of this added protection for extra offensive purposes by taking risks that normally wouldn't be possible without armor. I do think that my version of Warrior lean would still make Warrior an attractive option even if the Nuclear option of Ranger is selected (more below). This way, warriors can play both FO and FD equally well without being limited to the armors themselves.

    For DEX, I think it's pretty much an even split among the 2 ideas as well.
    quote:

    However, I am concerned about the infinite ramping, the extra 3.5% beyond turn-10 should probably be capped to 10 extra turns with the scaling cut in half (so +7% for 10 turns, then +1.75% for 10 turns). This brings ranged attacks to 160% of normal damage after 20 turns, which is insane to think about.

    Battles don't usually last that long anyway so I don't think it's a big deal whether or not this gets capped and shouldn't really affect the power of DEX that much. I would be fine whichever way this goes.

    As mentioned earlier, I think both originally proposed ideas are great but I think the Nuclear option is a far more exciting and interesting one. Agree with Sapphire on the notion that clinging onto the idea that SP should be build agnostic is backwards thinking. We are on the verge of a massive change, now's the perfect time to change up everything completely, hanging onto past ideologies, formulas etc. is simply limiting our own creativity and how things can be done. If the main ideas for all builds were to remain largely the same, then what even is the point of a revamp? This should be the perfect opportunity to explore something drastically different (for Rangers at least). I feel like alot are too afraid to step out of this comfort zone. Regardless of which proposed idea will be picked, it won't be worse than what we have now. People are getting too uptight over nothing, these changes literally benefits players in every way.

    I like all of Sapphire as well as Primate Murder's ideas for DEX, I think those can be considered too if the staff can't come to a conclusion on the originally proposed ideas.

    People might wonder what will happen to FD Rangers if the Nuclear option is picked. It's simple really, FO Rangers use skills focused on damage whereas FD Rangers can use skills that sacrifice damage in favour of effects. I think both playstyles will have something going for them with the Nuclear option.

    For INT, I would be against the idea of a Barrier simply because we already have items in the game that does that (Crystal Mana Defender Shield, Necro Armor etc.) and I would expect the new versions of Mage, Wizard and ArchMage to have something similar as well. Mages don't need more forms of Barrier. Do it once or twice it's exciting, do it 10 times and it becomes stale. I still prefer MP regen on Magic weapon attacks but am fine with the originally proposed solution of Spells too.
    quote:

    First of all, I've read Saphire's post and, surprisingly, he's right about the Int bonus. Mages are overpowered right now, we all know that, but the stat must still remain in line with the others, mathematically speaking. I would suggest a minor change, though: instead of regaining mp on attacks, mages get a passive chance to regain a spell's worth of mp each round, with the chance increased after spellcasting. As an example: 10% chance to regain mp at the end of each round, with +5% chance added for the rest of the battle each time you cast a spell. If you already have >75% mp bar, you instead gain Regain Mana status.

    It won't be something to rely on, but it'll certainly make someone smile each time it happens.

    Absolutely bonkers of an idea and I mean that in a good way. If this happens, the chance would probably be quite low but it's insane and I love it. Wouldn't mind this idea too.

    I think most people agree with CHA providing a reduction in the upkeep cost for guests. I just hope that the new upkeep cost isn't too crazy without CHA. Appreciate Sapphire for providing the actual numbers. 30% is definitely too high IMO. I personally would not go higher than 23% for the new base cost. 20% Melee with 250 CHA seems decent. As for Boosters I think they can stay the same, we don't need another change to them apart from whatever the other guests are getting.
    quote:

    I think that both Pets and Guests should use [MainStat] + CHA for accuracy.

    Agree with this.

    quote:

    While this would be equivalent to about +40 immobility resistance, I'm not really sure how much mileage the player would get out of an effect like this outside of a handful of monsters. Something like a 5-10% chance (at 250 LUK) to auto-win normal save rolls would be a more interesting effect (if possible to code).

    Good point. I second the idea of a small chance to auto-win save rolls.

    We need to stop hanging onto the notion of expected power that players are supposed to have in the past. The revamp is here for a reason. Every single build getting a buff is a good thing. Raising the power ceiling keeps things fresh and exciting and allows for many new ideas. To stagnate at the same power level for years is boring and lame.

    < Message edited by Korriban Gaming -- 6/5/2023 12:18:45 >
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 18
    6/5/2023 12:54:36   
    Sphinx Jevoha
    Member



    Since Booster pets are getting so much attention, could the Booster pets also have a toggle that allows them to heal the player instead of providing a damage boost?
    So instead of boosting damage by 90%, could the booster heal the player by 100 + 90 = 190%? The 100 is the regular heal, and the 90 is the heal-instead-of-the-boost.
    Post #: 19
    6/5/2023 14:35:55   
      Lorekeeper
    And Pun-isher

     

    		 I'd like to bring up some design concepts involved in the revamp so as to help the discussion a bit, starting with some essential goals:

    We're aiming for each of the three main stats to have a distinct identity. It's essential that they don't play too similarly or overshadow each other, with each having distinct advantages to either running it as sole mainstat or for hybridizing into it. Last but not at all least, the final concept needs to be something Ianthe can reasonably finish in this go at the revamp, as we can't keep revisiting it perpetually -- we need this revamp to be finalized in order to be able to continue other projects. That hurts the viability of ideas that require extensive item, status, or other reworks on top of the revamp, even if one turns out to be very good.

    For other important concepts:


    As explained before, we can break down progress along achieving a separate build identity into three steps:

    #1: Establishing a foundational concept.
    #2: Developing this foundation into a specific playstyle through stat mechanics.
    #3: Supporting the playstyle with gear that rewards its performance.

    After the initial separation of accuracy, and due to the prior status quo, pure builds are each in a different step according to their prior status.

    Ranger: Step #1. Defensive Rangers have an established niche in resource efficiency through reduced damage, the use of 100-proc weapons, and damaging status effects. However, the proliferation of 100-proc Magic weapons steps into this niche and becomes a problem unless Dexterity becomes distinct enough to nullify this issue - At which point we can cater to wands without making mages a better FD Ranger than FD Ranger. Most egregiously, though: Because they needed the same stats as Warriors, offensive Rangers had no identity in the first place. A new identity must therefore be established to even begin to cater to them with new gear.

    Warrior: Step #2. The identity of steady damage throughout a fight needs to be developed into an engaging dynamic beyond having the best expected performance from hitting the attack button repeatedly. The Warrior Lean helps to add support to this identity, but the fact remains that we can't change how all of STR's power budget goes into melee damage without having to redo the entire turn model and changing that foundation as the best straightforward damage dealer. This is the kind of issue that the style bonus of 20% is being introduced to tackle: An added budget without having to take away from baseline power.

    Mage: Step #3. The changes to Spellcaster Lean have greatly helped to reward a style that doesn't subsume Warrior's niche. To fully break from the prior "Mage is a better Warrior than Warrior, which is a better Ranger than Ranger.'' dynamic, future Magic gear should continue to reinforce this. Stat changes made in line with buffs to other stats should be cautious, as Mage is already in the best position and ready to be strictly supported by gear -- especially with the proliferation of extremely strong resource recovery gear.



    On the Style Bonus and power creep:

    Adding power to all stats is indeed a sudden power creep. That's not inherently a negative thing; live service RPGs can benefit from steady power creep, and indeed a cursory review of the game will show that we've had a lot of that in recent years. We haven't sat on the same power level for quite some time, even looking at the first turn of a battle. However, as this is an addition to how much power each stat provides, it's a huge deal. Rest assured, this isn't a blind jump or a start of an uncontrolled ramp that will leave players in the dust if they fail to keep up for a few weeks.

    The Style Bonus is a controlled jump in power, an additional budget to be spent differently for each stat in order to reinforce/reward the identity of each main stat and tackle new/existing issues of each secondary stat. The latter in this case referring to making END more relevant to make up for being being plain, mitigating some of the hit CHA builds take from the guest cost increase, and LUK largely boiling down to the stat that feeds Hypercrit. By implementing this bonus, we gain a little bit of breathing room to tinker with these hurdles without the massive workload of completely shuffling urn values, and without taking any existing power away to implement the new features.
    Post #: 20
    6/5/2023 14:39:12   
    Warren.
    Member
     

    		 You haven't mentioned when we can expect these stat changes?
    Post #: 21
    6/5/2023 14:48:20   
      Lorekeeper
    And Pun-isher

     

    		 As mentioned in the original post, Ianthe is aiming to finish before the end of Summer.
    Post #: 22
    6/5/2023 14:53:06   
    Warren.
    Member
     

    		 I thought that timeline was for updating guests, but if the stat changes are also coming at the end of summer then that's good
    Post #: 23
    6/5/2023 22:44:41   
      Lorekeeper
    And Pun-isher

     

    		 Quick clarification, as it's been brought to my attention that we didn't explicitly state this: The improved version of ramping damage is currently live so that everyone can experience it and let us know if it actually feels good now. If you actually like it now, please let us know!
    Post #: 24
    6/5/2023 23:48:00   
    Korriban Gaming
    Banned


    		 It's great, no reason to dislike it. Being able to reach 100% damage and above in 3 turns as opposed to the original 4-5 is better in every way
    AQ DF AQW  Post #: 25
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