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Are some ideas being gate-kept off of spells?

 
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10/5/2023 16:44:00   
Sapphire
Member

I wanted to bring this up. I know some ideas on paper are balanced, but sometimes on paper and in application they can not be. In other areas, on paper they can be OP but in application they are bad. Sometimes super-synergistic effects stacked together on a single item (like an armor) while technically balanced, could really end up OP in reality.

With that premise in mind, I often wonder why some ideas we see on armors, skills, shields, miscs, etc etc are often missing from spells. And in some cases, even when implemented, they might get scaled way back, and maybe due to balance reasons?

I think the bigger picture for the game, like Chaotic has mentioned, is to try and push mages to spellcast more. While we may not see some of the things he specifically has mentioned, I do think there could be other more vanilla ways to do this. And when I take a look at spells in general, I feel like spells oftentimes might be missing some of the best ideas in the game.

For example, while fragile status was by in large not a well implemented status, only until this past Frostval did we ever see it even put on a spell at all.

We still don't have TheCold on a spell.

We don't have any spells that grant celerity in any meaningful way.

We only have (irc) 3 spells that eat any statuses (not counting healing, and even that wasn't meant for mages to use) And all of those spells are premium or on a premium tome. And one is on an efficient spell, which is an example of what I mentioned earlier. It was scaled back...by putting it on an efficient spell, which is only on a token costed tome.


Where's the spell that gives pets/guests celerity? Where the spell that has 2x, 3x lucky strike damage whether its on first turn or always? Hammerfall has greater lucky strike damage, but yet again, it's an efficient spell. Why scale back the effect on a spell when we get the full power elsewhere? Where's the spell that when casted, grants a damage boost to pets/guests? Where's spells with damage scaling effects like mason's choke, alchemical's blind, voidforged poisons, etc etc? What about bleed? I know of 1 spell offhand that has bleed.


And where's spell imbues? I understand maybe elemental change spell imbues could be an issue, but why not status add-ons?

Are some of these things not implemented due to potential balance issues by having them on a spell? Are there thematical reasons? Is it just a matter of gap filling and only so many items can be released week to week to week? And in time we may see these things?

To conclude, here's what I personally would like to see on spells:

1. Status Imbue quick casts
2. More status eaters that are not efficient damage (standard cost, damage with the 2x melee value etc etc etc
3. Player and/or pet/guest celerity
4. Pet/guest damage boost when casted.
5. TheCold
6. More fragile options
7. Bleed
8. Access to Void element and not fake void (waste of time to do fake void) Staff makes these hoola hoop scenarios to access void but never on a spell.
9. SP heal
10. Damage scaling effects

Again, some of the best things tend to be on non spell stuff. Why is this?

< Message edited by Sapphire -- 10/5/2023 16:49:13 >
Post #: 1
10/5/2023 17:23:56   
Aura Knight
Member

It's likely a matter of mage builds being too powerful to offer more to their arsenal. Mage just dominates with ease.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 2
10/5/2023 18:24:29   
Sapphire
Member

I don't outright discount that statement, but it does make me wonder if that's really the case, is that an admittance to them being OP and not balanced?

Regardless, some might argue that mages are OP based more on how they can boost weapons-based skills more so than spells. Ele locked ele comped weapon-based skills easily out damage spells. I personally think the MP bar providing huge versatility can't be calculated and therefore, is what really makes them seem strong.

If there is this idea that Mages are too OP, then at what point (once re-balanced) will that argument then not be an excuse, if that is even the excuse. (I'm not suggesting it is or isn't) And then we see better ideas on spells?
Post #: 3
10/5/2023 19:38:59   
legendd
Member
 

How about give warriors/rangers second SP bar to level the playing field so mages get new mechanics xD
Post #: 4
10/5/2023 19:46:19   
dizzle
Member
 

I think a big reason spells have to be kept in check to some degree is because you’re not really sacrificing defense (or at least you don’t have to) because you can safely sit in optimal resistance gear and cast the spell to get your desired outcome, be it damage or a status or whatever else.

With that being said, I do agree mostly with the premise of this post. I’m always in favor of seeing cool and unique effects added anywhere on any items in the game, spells not being an exception. Be it eaters, more status infliction, companion boosting etc. I’m down for more juicy spells doing something other than more cost for more damage, or less damage for efficient cost etc. Specifically I would like to see more status inflicting spells similar to the trio of status bombs we got from mogloween a few years back.

I do think this could turn out funky and could potentially compound the “problem” with mages though because if the goal is to push them towards spell casting and then we get a bunch of spells that sacrifice 80% damage or whatever then it just turns into a funky type of game play for them where they’re not really casting spells to kill the monster they’re just doing it for more shenanigans. But I think that might just be an unavoidable by product of getting more spells that do cool stuff. And I’d rather get cool juicy spells than not so it’s fair game for me, maybe that’s just something to think about as we get more spell releases and as the game continues to evolve
AQ  Post #: 5
10/7/2023 19:07:00   
Ultam
Member

I'll add my two cents since this is an interesting topic.

Me personally, I never really used any spells outside of healing or protection because mana is a limited resource to me. Even with pixel ether, I still mainly use weapons and items(Hybrid build) as my main form of DPS. I treat mana almost like a second health bar and it wasn't until the Necromancer update that I started using my spells more offensively during quests. I could be completely wrong, but to me the reason is that we just can't reliably recover a good amount mana outside of hyperspecific items and armors. Most weapons that allow you to attack and recover mana are so pitiful you'd be better just wasting your turn to recover half of a normal spell cost.

Now that seems unrelated to this topic but you have to see it like this: for mages spells ARE their main weapon. So if it doesn't do big damage, I don't think many pure mages would consider it worthy of wasting a spell slot. If anything half of what you suggest is more beneficial to every other build outside of Pure Mage and while mages aren't the main focus of your post, seeing as spells are magic it should offer some benefit to a mage. I like the idea of those status eaters being able to regain our mana more similar to how the Necromancer class does it, which would allow me to actually use my big damage spells more often, but I do take issue with one thing.

Void


If we had a reliable, fully functional void spell that would render every other elemental counterpart obsolete by default. That's one of the main reasons staff never gave us a functional void....well anything. It'd trivialize their game. Though that doesn't mean there's not a way to balance it. If we had a Void Spell what if we had to cast 4 spells of a differing element to be able to cast it once, that way you give the efficient spells more of a use too and even allow some nifty wand/spell gameplay to occur with their inbuilt elemental spell to cast that powerful Void spell. A little bit of set up for a nice payoff. Since there's no precedence for a void spell it's hard to say if that will even be a good idea but it could be fun. Or maybe be something they give to the elusive Archmage class ??
Post #: 6
10/8/2023 8:15:55   
Sapphire
Member

I wanted to first reply to the Void statement. I wasn't suggesting staff just make a void spell.

I said
quote:

Staff makes these hoola hoop scenarios to access void but never on a spell.


This entails a few things. True Void is always only accessible through triggers (dragon, zombie, celestials, etc, status eaters (like celestial voidforged package), etc. Voidforged requires a poison to be inflicted, then the shield has a quick cast poison eater and it locks you to that shield, to have access. This is the type of thing I meant that staff creates hoola hoops to obtain Void. But, it's never on a spell. I wouldn't advocate for VOID to haphazardly be there . Yes, that would render everything obsolete. But some type of hoola hoop system that a player must go through to get it? Why not? They have done this for shadowstalker dono stuff as well as celestial voidforged package.



In regards to the points about damage being a spell's identity, and lack of access to MP healing.

A couple of opinions here. First, I don't discount the idea that a spell's main identity is seemingly "burst damage" and so reducing damage to add-in effects might not be ideal for some. But I personally have learned that in this game, huge damage has a place, but so do effects.

If I am going to fight a boss with a 200-300 damage cap and .25 clawback, or even the new idea, plot armor that limits total damage per turn, if I am a Mage and am going to spend 653 MP or more (overcharged) I am losing so much efficiency to that cap that burst damage is a dumb option. So players adapt. There are 3 ways to adapt to this in terms of using spells.
1. More hits to spread out the damage. FBZ is the principal example. 15 hits hitting damage caps sort of nullifies them in many ways. Staff has even stated this is an issue and we won't be seeing massive multi-hit spells being made any longer. The most we've seen recent-ish is 7-8. Some claim someone stated 6 would be a soft max. Prism tome has a 7 hit spell so that night be a bad rumor.
2. Use efficient spells since you can cast them something like 9 or 10 times before running out of MP, and using them in spellcaster lean boosts it enough to be a worthy enough route
3. Cast spells that pay damage for monster nerfing effects, DoT's (another way to mitigate damage caps a bit), or other "helpers" Since the cap is going to be reducing damage anyway, why not just use spells that can still hit that cap or close, but potentially gain something of benefit too?


So, again, huge nuke burst damage spells have a place. But I make the argument that so do spells with effects. This also provides variety, something AQ is known for. The mixing and matching of ideas and items is partly why AQ is so fun, IMO.

So no, despite what some may think of for spells, which is based on that old antiquated idea of 2 burst spells, 8 weapons attacks in each of the 2 monsters before a heal.... this isn't reality. That's simply a base foundational aspect to balance around, more so than actual meta.


Secondly, MP healing in this game is easy. Some even claim it's so easy, that it's become problematic. Yes, it may require specific items, but what doesn't? It's just like everything else in AQ. You trade one idea for another due to a limited number of active item slots. For example, a Lucky BeastMage build can choose to either use pets/guests for more player damage (boosters) or normalized pet/guests damage or healing back MP (FGM pet, etc) EoC heals back so much MP if you have CHA that 1 weapons attack turn can grant you 2-4 turns of casting normal spells if you boost the attack well enough, especially if you use other Mp stacks. EoC + rejuv necklace + infinita staff would full heal your MP easily enough. No pet/guest combo is needed.

None of this really answers why some of this game's best ideas are either never put on spells, or get band-aided and "scaled back" by putting them on efficient spells only and other similar methods. My question is, why?

< Message edited by Sapphire -- 10/8/2023 8:23:36 >
Post #: 7
10/8/2023 15:14:37   
Broccoli
Member

Because it would erase the last 5 years of trying to correct the last 10 years of severe build identity erosion.
Post #: 8
10/8/2023 15:26:07   
Ultam
Member

I really wish I didn't have to rewrite my old message since it deleted a few of my other points :(

quote:

So, again, huge nuke burst damage spells have a place. But I make the argument that so do spells with effects. This also provides variety, something AQ is known for. The mixing and matching of ideas and items is partly why AQ is so fun, IMO.


I actually agree with this, it's one of the reasons why I want more accessible mp healing. Excluding seasonals and rares, the best sources of MP healing are either classes or the EoC and Rejuv Necklace you mentioned. One can be used without charisma but it's far better with that stat. Before the stat sweep occurred and removed Dex from being necessary Pure Mages would have it spread out as 200INT 200DEX 200LUK with the remainders being put in what I would assume to be END. If I can actually play around my mana pool, I'd be less restrictive in my own spell usage but that's just me. I know full well how out of the loop I might be due to the flash exodus since I am still of the opinion that reliable MP healing is hard to find(if you guys know of any good...well anything that heals MP greatly without me needing to invest in CHA, please tell me lol).

quote:

Secondly, MP healing in this game is easy. Some even claim it's so easy, that it's become problematic. Yes, it may require specific items, but what doesn't? It's just like everything else in AQ. You trade one idea for another due to a limited number of active item slots. For example, a Lucky BeastMage build can choose to either use pets/guests for more player damage (boosters) or normalized pet/guests damage or healing back MP (FGM pet, etc) EoC heals back so much MP if you have CHA that 1 weapons attack turn can grant you 2-4 turns of casting normal spells if you boost the attack well enough, especially if you use other Mp stacks. EoC + rejuv necklace + infinita staff would full heal your MP easily enough. No pet/guest combo is needed.


Honestly, since the removal of DEX in accuracy checks, we've honestly had more freedom for build variety than ever before so I can't even in good faith say that I'm entirely right in using the "Pure Mage" stat spread, but I would like a few spells(or I guess SPells too), something outside of your pets, armors, weapons items etc that could reliable grant us more mana, but seeing as some folks think it's TOO EASY to recover mana, I may be asking for something redundant at best and a nightmare at worst.

But we're getting too far off topic lol. I do like the idea of being able to status foes with spells and even comboing them with other spells. That kind of playstyle is what makes mage playthroughs so fun in other games like Dragon Age.
Post #: 9
10/8/2023 19:53:43   
CH4OT1C!
Member

As I read through the posts on this thread, I couldn't help but think a lot of the ideas being bounced around are somewhat nebulous. With that in mind, I've tried to arrange my thoughts in a way that helps to organise them a little. To start, I think we first need to distinguish between...
1). Spells: Attacks that consume MP in exchange for an increased power budget (whether this be used for direct damage or another effect) and treated/tagged as "spell-type".
2). Spell-type Skills: Attacks that consume a non-MP resource (e.g., SP, HP) in exchanged for an increased power budget (whether this be used for direct damage or another effect) and treated/tagged as "spell-type".
Although widely-known, this distinction is important to reiterate because each takes up entirely distinct parts of the Player-turn model. Spells are an integral component of Mage Player damage (as has been stated by @Ultam). Spell-type skills are "extras" that form a much smaller component of overall power. This imbalance in value matters.

With that said, here's my take:

A number of people have suggested the reason might be related to Mage's dominance over the past decade (I note @Sapphire is right to point out the versatility of the MP bar). However, I don't think this strikes the heart of the issue. From my perspective, the real reason is 10 years of weapon-type skills being dominant. It's worth remembering that the reason why Mages have dominated is because they perform the role of Warrior better than Warrior does itself (Rangers too but they have long lived in Warrior's shadow). I omit the complex set of interacting factors responsible for the sake of brevity, but sufficed to say for much of the past 10 years, that dominance has been related to weapon-type skills. not spell-type attacks. This has only become more severe over time.

The reason why becomes abundantly clear if you compare high-power attacks. On paper, spells and spell-type attacks should absolutely dominate such a list because they receive elemental compensation to damage/power. In contrast, Weapon-type attacks receive compensation to cost, making them more efficient but theoretically deal less damage. That's not how it works in practice. It's true that a spell/spell-type skill tops the list for most elements, but rarely is it completely dominant. In many cases, Bloodzerker can achieve comparable output whilst also retaining a level of efficiency. It's nowhere near the 1:1.6-8 ratio you would expect to account for elecomp. The reason is simple, spell-type attacks are treated like spells, which have a 200% Melee baseline. As many damage boosters normalise their effects relative to a standard Melee attack (100% Melee), their effects receive a /2 penalty when applied to a spell. In contrast, weapon-type attacks are treated as regular attacks, which are assumed to have a 100% Melee baseline (or even 75% for Magic). This means they don't receive the /2 penalty. In the case of Magic, they even get a *4/3 bonus. And, since many players use damage boosters, the difference quickly shrinks. It's very telling that spell-type attacks make up a minority of the list, and often appear at lower positions. Two things worth noting in particular are:
1). Thunder Groom/Bride is a Spellcaster lean armour with an in-built elecomped energy spell. This is only sufficient for 5th place in terms of unique skills, including Bloodzerker. Even spellcaster lean isn't enough to fully overcome the deficit.
2). This comes after the nerf of Chieftan's ironthorn, which would have multiplied the weapon-based numbers you see on the list by a further 1.5.

Put bluntly, spell-type attacks make you pay more, but leave you no better off than weapon-type ones. Even when they do offer a damage advantage, boss damage caps mean it rarely matters. Weapon-type attacks are also more versatile - they can be imbued and gain the effects of any weapon so long as it doesn't specifically target spells. Unsurprisingly, this led to a strong player preference for weapon-type attacks. This generated a feedback loop - Staff produced more weapon-type effects to satisfy player demands, generating more versatility and available options to reinforce said preference. It was doubly convenient because Weapon-type attacks benefit everyone, whereas spell-type attacks are more heavily skewed towards Mages. As I said earlier, the difference between Spells and Spell-type skills really matters. Moreover, FO was the dominant armour type and the old Spellcaster lean horribly underpowered.

So, to answer @Sapphire's question directly: The best things aren't applied to spell-type attacks because spell-type attacks are automatically at a major disadvantage. Addressing @Dizzle, spells definitely offer the benefit of sitting more defensively, but this also applies to weapon-type skills that follow weapon element. Just like spells, they receive less attention due to a lack of competitive edge (in that case, a lack of elecomp). Of course, I'm not suggesting Mage is perfectly fine - MP is versatile, we must be careful. The point I'm making is that views of spell-type attacks only recently began to change with the release of Necro and the updated Spellcaster Lean. That wedged the door, but there's still years-worth of catching up to do. Not to mention, recent progress has been severely hampered by much of the recent content being premium. All three of this year's tomes have costed tokens, the first three since Loremaster Tome in 2019. Of the 12 Spellcaster lean armours in existence, 6 are premium (Angelic Robes, Broomstrider, Ice Necro Cavalry, Infinite Darkcaster, Scathing Dreamweaver, Wind Necro Cavalry), and two are seasonally rare unless you have a token painting (Fall Dryad, Thunder Bride/Groom). The other four cover 3 elements between them (Earth: Eternal Champion, Dark: Necromancer and Brilhado Necromancer Robes, Water: Archmage Apprentice). Weapon support is scarcely better, much being locked away in the UR GGB. Spellcasters simply aren't able to properly compete right now. And, putting aside my other objections to some of @Sapphire's desired effects, none of them directly solve that problem.

Never mind the best effects being gatekept, spells and spell-type skills can barely compete at all right now. If there is a desire to push Mages towards spellcasting (which is certainly my preferred solution), that needs to change.

PS: @Ultam: If you're having some trouble with MP regeneration, there's always Mana Regeneration in Warlic's shop. It's Level 70 and outdated, but can regenerate a lot even at much higher levels with the right setup. Berserk affects healing spells, the Grakma horn misc should come in handy.

< Message edited by CH4OT1C! -- 10/9/2023 7:55:57 >
AQ  Post #: 10
10/9/2023 11:37:50   
Sapphire
Member

I don't disagree with the idea that a mage can catch up to if not outright surpass a warrior using weapon based skills due to the 4/3 boost and spells become less attractive due to the lack of boostability due to the 1/2 boost they receive. I do think this is somewhat countered vs bosses with huge hit count spells. But it's still potentially hugely inefficient so I digress.

I just don't know if staff is willing to address this properly or if they have a different opinion. I have seen no indication from them or even from any players even remotely indicating that it's even being looked at by staff. (It prob is)

But considering the work it would likely entail, I think it is more likely that we will not see a change. Part of this reason you alluded to. They make effects on things that provide a bit more mass appeal. If they truly went in and addressed this specific issue and made spellcasting more attractive to Mages, then non spellcasting new release items that used to be appealing to a large swath of the game now does not look so appealing anymore. Is that worth the trade off? For you (or even for myself) maybe so. For them? I'm not so sure.

Regardless, I think my point still remains . If the reasons you state as to why they have gate-kept many ideas off of spells are indeed accurate, I would find it to be not a very good one.

Ultimately, I also would like to see some incentivizing spellcasting and in my opinion, this goes far far far beyond damage. This is why I wanted to ask why it seems as though many of the better implemented ideas on other things are not implemented onto spells. Because I think item or effect based ideas is more likely and plausible way to push for more spellcasting.
Post #: 11
10/9/2023 17:58:41   
CH4OT1C!
Member

Should my theory on this be correct, then the answer to your question should be pretty simple:
1). It's not really a restriction at all. These effects can be applied to spells, they should haven't yet because we're playing catch-up. But..
2). While implemented, the effects would still be disadvantaged purely because they are spell-type. "Better implementation" in this case is making spell-type attacks more versatile overall, and that can only come with long-term item support and the fixing of the mechanical imbalance between the two skill types.

Looking towards a long-term resolution, a decision will have to be made on this in the upcoming stat revamp. Mage needs to make some form of lateral shift for Warrior and Ranger to properly develop their own respective identities. If that direction is spellcasting, a lot of work will need to be done to push Mage from FO onto Spellcaster setups, making room for the others. If another direction is chosen, the chances of spell-type attacks ever catching up are slim indeed.
AQ  Post #: 12
10/10/2023 13:39:24   
Ultam
Member

quote:

PS: @Ultam: If you're having some trouble with MP regeneration, there's always Mana Regeneration in Warlic's shop. It's Level 70 and outdated, but can regenerate a lot even at much higher levels with the right setup. Berserk affects healing spells, the Grakma horn misc should come in handy.


It does?! I gotta play around with these self inflicted statuses more often cuz that's pretty neat.

And while we're on the topic of statuses, the reason they probably haven't implemented more spells with those yet is because they're still trying to figure out which stat they want to tie statuses to. I can see why the staff was thinking DEX since when Assassin inevitably gets updated that may very well be their bread and butter. I know we can have each status have a separate save but as for what can proc it, we may very well need them to have their own completely separate and hidden "stat" variable. Unless they want to give LUK more of a chance for inflicting statuses, not too dissimilar from how Dark Souls 3 does it.
Post #: 13
10/17/2023 3:47:23   
ChazCrona
Member
 

I like your idea for real.
Post #: 14
10/28/2023 0:53:55   
  Ianthe
 formerly In Media Res

 

Bet.

Thanks for the suggestion! Keep 'em coming!

AQ  Post #: 15
10/28/2023 2:20:24   
Sapphire
Member

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better that it eats panic. Thank you!!

Now, for a panic eater pet to replace what we lost with the Fae's change, and I'd be super happy

< Message edited by Sapphire -- 10/28/2023 2:22:48 >
Post #: 16
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