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=AQ= Harvest Season Is Here

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11/3/2024 8:27:12   
CarrionSpike
Member

COMING THIS WEEK!

Rare Monster Hunt - Harvest Golem
A strange golem, wrought forth from leftover food, has been spotted during random adventures all over Lore. Track down and defeat this machination of meat stuff and unlock a special shop with packed with delicious gear, including the all-new Shield of Plenty! This special creature will only be lurking around for the month of November so don’t delay… we can't guarantee it won't spoil.

Current Limited-Time Shops/Events:
  • Limited-Time Shop: Thursday the 12th
  • Limited-Time Shop: Zfinity Gauntlets
  • Limited-Time Shop: Back-To-School
  • Limited-Time Shop: Fall Season
  • Limited-Time Shop: 22nd Anniversary
  • Rare Monster Hunt: Aurora the Bright Huntress
  • Rare Monster Hunt: Harvest Golem

    Newsletter Link: https://mailchi.mp/artix.com/2024-harvest-season

    Remember not to play with your food! Oh wait...Never mind. Tag you're it. ~Anim

    < Message edited by AnimalKing -- 11/3/2024 10:18:20 >
    • Post #: 1
    11/7/2024 0:16:32   
      The Hollow
    AQ Lead


    		 The legendary Harvest Golem stalks the fields of Lore once again! Hunt down this seasonal monster for exclusive rewards, and take advantage of our holiday 50% Z-Token bonus on all packages.
    AQ  Post #: 2
    11/16/2024 2:31:47   
    Bolter
    Member

    		we still do not yet have the info subs for the Shields of Plenty.
    AQ  Post #: 3
    11/16/2024 10:51:48   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		Waiting on a "bug fix" I heard. It's more of about changing how it functions. They'll get rid of the hit-based thing. (a nerf) in favor of hits/misses.


    There's some talk of changing all of these dodgelash items to become hits/misses as well as giving them all a modifier assuming hit rates. Huge nerfs.


    But the info subs for shield of plenty should be out once they've nerfed it. Yeah I wasted tokens, too.

    < Message edited by Sapphire -- 11/16/2024 10:58:58 >
    Post #: 4
    11/16/2024 12:14:52   
      Lorekeeper
    And Pun-isher

     

    		 Mod mode: Please stop poisoning the well by casting conspiratorial doubt on whether a clear fix a fix. The "meme" of putting bug fix in quotation marks to misrepresent staff intent is tired at best and malicious at worst, and the benefit of the doubt runs ever thinner with repetition. Kindly drop it for good.

    Staff mode: Shield of Plenty has several different kinds of errors, from using the wrong hit standards, to being able to constantly heal you to full health, to having the wrong penalties. To elaborate on that last one, the mode that requires getting hit gives more accuracy to the enemy in exchange for power, when this would only be a penalty in a mode that required blocking -- Items don't get to gain power as a penalty to pay for gaining more power. This is all very clearly a combination of design mistakes and bugs.

    The reason I didn't post the info subs along with all the others is to not provide information that'll soon be rendered incorrect. That way we can post the right info instead of misleading people even for a moment. In addition, we're needing to hold off before fixing this item for staffing reasons. The item won't be rendered useless; we obviously still want it to be good. It has not been marketed as an item capable of outhealing the entire game, and of course does not need to be that broken in order to be good.
    Post #: 5
    11/16/2024 14:08:51   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		I wasnt basing anything on a misrepresentation of staff intent. I have no idea what staff's intent is. How could I? I was basing it on comments made by players on discord. Ones who are pushing for changes as a whole.

    Given the track record of successful proposed changes by some of them, I assumed wrong here. I probably shouldn't take player comments as gospel. My apologies.

    Post #: 6
    11/17/2024 13:21:04   
    KhalJJ
    Member
     

    		 @Lorekeeper, by way of reply, I wanted to raise a related point that is a minor issue, and I think causes some division amongst the playerbase.

    Firstly, I agree with you completely on the point of posting the infosubs, and conspiratorial digs being generally unhelpful.

    My main point however is about your explanation of the design flaw:

    quote:

    To elaborate on that last one, the mode that requires getting hit gives more accuracy to the enemy in exchange for power, when this would only be a penalty in a mode that required blocking


    The Doomlight shield does exactly this (benefits from the penalty), and (iirc) one of these was released in March of this year (ie. recently). I'm aware original doomlight is quite old but the continued re-release of this paid item which presumably will be changed given the above (with no disclaimer of this) does not sit well. Why was the recent doomlight released in this state?

    Then this shield was released with the design flaw as you describe, which seems to be a known design flaw amongst staff (inferred just from your comments).

    This shield was not an application of a new concept nor a particularly time-stressed release week as far as I'm aware. I think I can understand much more in instances of "we are trying a completely new mechanic/concept" that there is space to make mistakes, or of course when large releases mean time is minimal, but even so, and in the case of this shield, is there no internal list of design no-nos?

    There seems then from this to be misunderstanding even between staff as to what constitutes these false penalties, and general balance standards, so I can completely understand when players get confused.

    This confusion then sows division, and leads (I believe) to some players mistrusting staff, and further, in behaviour like that from Sapphire above.


    Post #: 7
    11/17/2024 13:45:56   
    CarrionSpike
    Member

    quote:

    The Doomlight shield does exactly this (benefits from the penalty), and (iirc) one of these was released in March of this year (ie. recently). I'm aware original doomlight is quite old but the continued re-release of this paid item which presumably will be changed given the above (with no disclaimer of this) does not sit well. Why was the recent doomlight released in this state?

    I've always assumed that updates to the Doomlight set will happen whenever Backlash gets updated. Probably saves time to just do everything at once, especially if the shield needs more than small changes following the Backlash update. In other words, why waste time on a band-aid fix that may end up being irrelevant later on? Also, it should be noted that the team have been fairly clear about the current state of Backlash being untenable so all of this shouldn't be a surprise.

    Also as to why we keep getting Doomlight variants released, I think that answer is fairly simple: player demand (despite knowing that the set is due for updates).

    < Message edited by CarrionSpike -- 11/17/2024 13:48:11 >
    Post #: 8
    11/19/2024 6:55:59   
    KhalJJ
    Member
     

    		 @CarrionSpike perhaps I should not have raised doomlight as a supporting point, as it is a separate although related issue.

    I agree with you that the Doomlight update timing you've outlined makes complete sense.

    Where we disagree is on staff communication - they have been very clear in certain channels but to assume all players purchasing these items are fully aware is not at all reasonable.

    This change should be made clear in at least one of: a) the package release announcement and b) the page from which you purchase the package.

    I agree that doomlight variants are likely released due to demand, but this seems a silly point in the context. The demand is (obviously, and necessarily) for the item in its current form. Hence why I am questioning the logic of releasing more, knowing internally changes are coming, and not communicating this effectively to players. This is just giving more fuel to potential upset, and borders on predatory business practice. The correct course of action would have been to pause Doomlight releases.

    Unless of course any future changes are relatively insignificant and a mountain is being made of a molehill. I can't really tell at this point, and that comes back somewhat to my main point;


    All of this is not addressing the larger point I was trying to make about internal staff balance inconsistencies and how these views are communicated, and that having a negative impact upon the playerbase.
    Post #: 9
    11/19/2024 7:57:42   
    CH4OT1C!
    Member

    		On the original matter at hand: I think it's worth stating that, when buying premium items, it's a good idea to wait (i) a few days and (ii) until the info subs are released. This advice is something veteran/experienced players are already extremely well acquainted with. As frustrating as it may be, AQ items are regularly released with bugs that often take a few hours/days to fix. It's far from ideal, but it's the inevitable consequence of a small team with large workloads and short deadlines. Players with a decent grasp of AQ's mechanics may be able to spot these errors and suggest ways they could be resolved, but it should come as no surprise that the staff may choose to adopt a different solution. Irrespective of how those fixes materialise, however, trying to rush info-subs out beforehand would only increase the chances of them becoming obsolete. That's something the community really can't afford when this type of information is already scarce to begin with.

    Regarding Doomlight: Notwithstanding the very reasonable points raised by @CarrionSpike, I agree with @KhalJJ. It's widely known among veteran circles that Doomlight is in need of significant changes, and it's perfectly reasonable to delay those changes until they can be addressed more efficiently. It would also come as no surprise to me if new Doomlights kept being released due to player demand (in part because of how broken they are). However, that information should (at the very least) have been clearly communicated to the broader playerbase. I would actually take this one step further and argue that subsequent variants shouldn't have been released at all, at least unless and until those fixes were implemented. It's not exactly ideal for any bugged item to get new variants, but it's somewhat excusable if the changes are relatively minor. Doomlight is much more severe, and the ramifications will be more significant as a result when it gets nerfed. The staff are acutely aware that Doomlight has serious problems, I'm not pleased that they chose to release variants despite knowing that, and I think it would be reckless for them to release any more until they've managed to take a look at Backlash. However explainable it may be as a business decision, that doesn't justify creating premium items you know will need significant changes down the line. That would also go for any item in a similar situation to Doomlight.

    It goes both ways, though. I know players that have bought items like Doomlight despite knowing they need to be fixed. To them, I'll reemphasise that this is what you signed up for. Sooner or later, these items will be fixed. They can't and won't remain broken simply because they were bought in that state. As @Lorekeeper pointed out, the items won't be rendered useless through the fixes, but they will undoubtedly become less effective than they are right now.


    _____________________________
    AQ  Post #: 10
    11/19/2024 10:12:34   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		It's widely known amongst veteran circles is simply a faulty debate tactic without any actual substance.

    Also, people buying things somehow knowing they'd be fixed because they're broken is also faulty. Has staff come out and made a statement regarding backlash or doomlights? Because statements outside of that are meaningless. And even if any staff member made a comment outside of an official post here, those also don't count IMO. These arguments just made are essentially "because I said so" in a nutshell. So, not to be harsh, but I have to take it worth a grain of salt. This goes towards Khal's ultimate point.

    My opinion on all of this would be...

    The design of doomlight as a whole is fine because it's caused several players to spend their money on the package. Having faulty penalties help create revenue is 10000000000% fine. So this idea of using 'false penalties' is an avenue to push premium items in my eyes, as it's simply another way to get an effect paid for..as long as what's paid in = what's being done in terms of melee %.

    Much of the hyperbole on many of these non math-related "balance issues" are simply subjective in nature and vastly overblown in my opinion. The game doesn't break because of these things. The game has always had "better than other stuff" aspects and yet it lives on. And in some cases, I say this helps AQ because some of these ideas makes for items to be considered good and makes them desirable. This creates excitement to play AQ. Altering these both A. From being implemented going forward but leaving old stuff as-is and B. Going back and altering everything are both absolutely a problematic and atrocious path to take. The game would be best served with a much more relaxed point of view regarding non-math-related concerns and just let players obtain and use items and combinations etc that they wish to have fun with. My hope is decisions regarding these types of things don't create a distrust in purchasing items for fear they'll be reviewed at a later time making the item worse. I believe there should be a time window for altering and bug fixing and beyond that, save for some extreme cases (none of which IMO currently exist) then leave the items alone and let players trust the item(s) are what they are and will be always. Why take an axe to that trust? I am not claiming staff will take that axe, as much as I am simply pointing this out to those who seem to not understand or think this is less important than meeting some selfish desired outcome of AQ. Because TBH, that's the optics of it. "You should have known this was going to change" is an argument that I often see and it often gets followed up with "because we told you so". I mean, really? Talk about putting the boot on the neck of so many players.

    There's no need to allow for the opinions of a very very small group of players to dictate the direction of the entire game, potentially ruining everyone else's experience in AQ. "Veterans" means absolutely zero here. The game should be made with everyone in mind. Even the guy who today is their first day playing and know nothing of any community forums/discords/reddits, etc etc etc.

    This is how I feel in regards to

    1. Voidforged debate
    2. Doomlight/backlash
    3. HEaling/END GBI etc debate
    4. CHA-related debate (including CHA weapons)
    5. Damage-scaling effects
    6. Dodgelash/dodge mechanics
    7. Lucky Strikes

    And there are other's that I could go on and on about.

    Does some of this need perhaps some minor tweaks? Sure. There's a balancing act here not just to reign in things but also to do it in a manner that doesn't alienate players. Some compromise on approach is best, because I believe it's mostly all hyperbole and such hyperbole and potential adjustment(s) are light years more detrimental to the game than leaving things as-is. Even the discussion of such things ticks people off because there's a perception that a small group of people influence "my AQ experience." Again, regardless of any argument put forth (because I've run through them myself beforehand) , barring some thoughtful new point of view, nobody can justify "Why should I continue to spend my own money on items that will completely change later?"

    Khal is right. There might be an assumption that players just know stuff and that assumption is born out of being involved in an itty bitty sub-community of 'veterans'. It's an illusion. And a faulty one at that.

    I just hope that some mistakes don't get made for the sake of the game.

    Edit- Also just realized this was in the Harvest Season is Here thread after replying =\


    On Topic->

    Is the 50% token sale a week earlier than LY or same week? IDk why but it seemed to be next week LY? Also what's everyone items to get?

    < Message edited by Sapphire -- 11/19/2024 10:23:43 >
    Post #: 11
    11/19/2024 21:59:32   
    Grace Xisthrith
    Member
     

    		 Quick note depending how anal you are about the -MRM stuff then Slime barrier's rework (an item they actually made) has the exact same effect. I think it's likely that they actually copied slime barrier's base to make the effect (since it's 1:1 with a different output, choke instead of HP, if I'm not mistaken), so it probably has the same /.88 instead of /.85. Just pointing out it's not just old items that have been cloned that have dev stated "wrong penalties", but an item that came out a few weeks ago

    Separately, I've got vague thoughts on the response about how the shield currently is, and what the staff perspective seems to be. Lorekeeper above wrote: "being able to constantly heal you to full health" - "To elaborate on that last one, the mode that requires getting hit gives more accuracy to the enemy in exchange for power, when this would only be a penalty in a mode that required blocking -- Items don't get to gain power as a penalty to pay for gaining more power"

    To set some ground expectations (and show people where my ideas went wrong if I messed up a calculation I've assumed the shield's mechanism of power is identical to Xalkos Thrax Ward. This means we've got 30% melee / .15 (block) / 2 (hitcount) melee per hit with the toggle on. That's 100% melee per blocked hit, 200% melee at 2 hits, 400% melee at 4. 400% melee in HP via regeneration (uses 404 = 100% melee, has .9x always useful (I think hell if I know) and .85x autohit penalty. From there we get 4x404x.9x.85=1236 HP (average) with 4 hits blocked, on average. If I'm not mistaken, the item was 2x power on release, so you'd receive 2 turns of that much regen.
    Regardless, 1236 HP per turn is a lot. However, there's a few questions that run through my mind whenever I look at this item. The first is from Light Realm Protector

    Light Realm Protector: This shield's prior form made you take less damage based on % of hits blocked in the prior turn, basically an inversion of the weapon's effect. Except if you're blocking, then that means you're likely negating a good % of the damage anyway, so this effect is pretty much wasted. So instead, now its MC effect is +20 Blind Potence, and you take +(20/1.4)% Dmg to heal yourself for (20 x 0.85 x Blocks / Attempts / 0.15)% Melee at start of turn

    So that's the shield, and if we run the same numbers, we get ~458 HP. So that's a lot less, but like, most monsters don't have 4 hits, and if you do use assumed 2 hits, you only get 618 HP off the other shield, so suddenly we're just looking at a 150 HP gap, but Light Realm also gives 20 blind potence so it's basically free-er to dodge, so is it really that different.
    1: Comparing it to 2 hits isn't really fair, the ability to go higher than 2 hits gives shield of plenty a higher power ceiling, undoubtedly.
    2: Light realm protector also uses what I view as a false penalty. If you're dodging, you don't take increased damage. Is this a problem too.
    3: If it's just the hitcount standard that's the problem, is ~618 HP a turn fine? How are staff feeling about that
    4: Why is a huge buzz made about this healing shield when Xalkos Thrax Ward functions identically in terms of power and hasn't been publicly discussed by staff? Is it because bleed is weaker or less abuseable than healing? (I'd argue that's not the case, but I'd love staff perspective if possible)
    5: If the regen was supposed to be one turn, why make it regen and not a raw heal? I mean, no reason not to, but the regen fires after your turn ends so is it to delay the heal by a turn? To power regen eaters?
    6: Is it really a nerf to make it not use the hitcount standard? A lot of monsters have one hit, and this doubles the power against them (Limiting the top end obviously weakens the top end of the item, I just know I absolutely love Wyrd Ward and can use it so so often against bosses for a free turn, so in all those situations this would 2x the power of the item, so I wanted to promote discussion about it)

    Those are my thoughts in general. A lot of it not really relevant to the initial discussion or initial point, but I like thinking about these things

    < Message edited by Grace Xisthrith -- 11/19/2024 22:26:45 >
    AQ  Post #: 12
    11/20/2024 14:28:52   
    Sapphire
    Member

    		The problem isnt the items. It's dodging in general. The items assume base assumptions, like all items. It's when you stack dodge mechanics (blind, defboost, thecold, etc) that is when it starts to become an issue.

    But the same can be said with everything you stack. Panic becomes insane with stacking and I would make the argument it's even more powerful than dodge mechanics because at least a monster with autohit can thwart dodge.

    Lucky strikes become way too powerful with enhanced rate stacking.

    Backlash becomes crazy with multiple backlash items used.

    So this becomes a game of pick and choose whats an issue and whats not, and this bleeds over into cherry-picking. AND ultimately, IMO, when a player stacks something, just like damage boosts, they become very strong and it's all fine. I think a perspective check is in order.
    Gibby mentioned Xalkos. but as he said, nobody's said much on it. Is it because people are so enamored with healing? I think so, personally. In other words, more players care about their healing ability than their bleed stacking ability..so shield of plenty is therefore a problem. Having the ability to stay alive > ability to damage monsters is the favored gameplay here. I don't think player-favored mechanics when comparing two things should cloud judgement.

    The other issue here is the debate on hits/misses or effect per dodge.

    It seems to me, if it's so easy to dodge in the game now, and staff off the record have claimed the 5% floor was only a step 1, then we probably ought to wait and see step2+ flesh out before going back and making changes to items. Because effect per dodge perceptions may change.

    Furthermore, it also seems as though off the record that staff may take a look at and do a monster revamp. If done properly, if a monster were to get dex's damage identity just like players, and staff were to go through each old-school style monster that seems to have str+dex the majority of the time and un-hybridize them, every "Ranger" monster would gain accuracy after each miss and eventually start landing hits , no?

    So I would think not only would a monster revamp be needed to address dodge but potentially other measures as well to make it so you can't simply sit in whatever you want vs 98% of the game and dodgelash, dodge-heal, etc etc and I would suspect that a lot of these dodge mechanics wouldn't be so powerful and not a single item would potentially have to be touched.

    In addition to this, more monsters could have auto hit effects. To me this is the proper approach , which yes, would take time, but it's actually the right fix. Because they can also remake mobs to be spellcasters and using their MP which would make stuff like the warlic heatwave board no longer mostly useless to use. (and other effects like it for the future)



    If the monster pool couldn't so universally be dodged as much as it is today, a lot of the dodge 'issues' would be lessened greatly. Imagine if 30% of monsters had an auto-hit attack instead of the very small amount today? Imagine if 30% of other monsters were rangers with adaptive lean? Seems dependent on who you fight instead of works vs 98% of the game to me.



    < Message edited by Sapphire -- 11/20/2024 17:40:43 >
    Post #: 13
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