The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (Full Version)

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Ell -> The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 15:30:04)

I've seen at least 2 or three threads locked in the last few days because they don't have a decent enough first post.

Here's a few examples of what I mean, these are mods/Ak's messages when they lock threads with a "bad first post.";

quote:

I'm sorry, but a thread with just a link to a news article isn't a good first post. Feel free to re-post this, but include some details on the article in the first post. Locked.


quote:

Posting a link and then one word is not a good first post. Please try again with a better first post; one that actually inspires discussion.

But if we could have less posts about every single little news story, that would be great. :)


quote:

I'm sorry, but posting a link and then saying "Discuss." is not a good first post. A first post should be one with your own feelings and opinions, sort of an introduction to the discussion. You can make another thread, but please make a better first post. :)





Now, I find it incredibly strange that we have to have a decent first post otherwise the thread gets locked. Also, that we have to include our "own feelings and opinions." or be "inspirational" in our title posts. It shouldn't really be a requirement that we should have to state where we stand concerning news stories, or almost have to make a speech to "inspire discussion." If people want to talk about it, they will. If they don't, they aren't likely to. That's just how its always worked. Moreover, I'd say most people just view the threads with titles that interest them.

Also, most of the time the title of the thread is incredibly clear, and introduces the topic quite well. ie "Minimum Wage - Good or Bad ?" is the title of one of the threads.
( http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=16892612 ) and in the thread, the thread starter asks for opinions, posting a Wiki link so those who don't know about Minimum Wage can find out about it. I don't see why this isn't acceptable.

In fact, most of the time, after their thread gets locked, the person just reposts the same thread but just quotes some of the article. Making the locking process rather pointless. If we're having to introduce everything and be increasingly clever in how we post, soon the debate club will be pointless.*

Finally, if it's just the first post that's bad, why not ask the thread starter to edit the first post? A locked thread is dead, it has no purpose except to inform others its locked. No one can longer discuss anything, and it slowly drops down the thread list, waiting for the same poster to eventually create a thread, often with the same title, with the same discussion point, but just with more information which, if we're honest, the repliers might not read or refer to anyway.




*Speaking of which, that could probably do with a boost in activity. If I set it to "display topics within the last seven days," only one topic appears. If I do that in the OOC room or Entertainment forum, I get two sets of two pages worth of threads.




Ebil Twilly -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 15:31:40)

I agree with you. However, maybe saying something like "I think it is unfair" would be better than just discuss. It's not forcing the thread starter to make an essay but still brings out a thought or two.




Ell -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 15:32:34)

Ah yes, but, is "I think it's unfair." actually going to make a difference in terms of how the conversation or thread flows? I wouldn't think so, making it redundent. But cheers for the agreement.




Ebil Twilly -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 15:36:43)

... I have to be more specific... I meant like "I think it is unfair because..." so it can be one sentence and people can compare their thoughts without the thread starter having to post again.




Ell -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 15:40:19)

Yet again however, we have to consider if it's actually going to make a difference. And even if you think it does, I'll go to my second arguement;

quote:

Why not ask the thread starter to edit the first post?




Ebil Twilly -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 15:45:09)

@above That's because the thread starter may not be online at the time. If he/she is, problem solved. Otherwise, the first post will stay like that until the person comes online.




Ell -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 15:50:11)

Well isn't that the same problem we're facing currently? The thread gets locked, the poster isn't online, we wait until they come back on again, or have to repost it ourselves.
The first post is going to stay locked, destroying the discussion until the person comes online.

A thread with just a "bad first post" that still has the main article is better than a dead locked thread, which is just sitting there.





Vivi -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 15:54:53)

The first post of a thread should lead the discussion in some manner. It should not simply link to the article and wait for someone else to find something worth discussing in it. Even just providing a little information in the post itself with a small comment is better than posting an article link and nothing more.

Locking the thread lets the creator of the thread start the discussion more appropriately if/when they recreate it. If we ask them to edit the first post and in the meantime people are posting, by the time they edit the first post the thread basically belongs to whoever starts an actual discussion with it.





Ell -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 16:01:52)

quote:

Even just providing a little information in the post itself with a small comment is better than posting an article link and nothing more.


The problem is though, the small comment, in reality, won't make any difference. Moreover, I don't think there actually is a need for the discussion to be "led" by anyone. It's just a general talk room, where people post non-AQ or unrelated threads. It isn't a place for a railroaded discussion that constantly refers to, or references, the leading posters views. People are going to create their own views and discussion points.

quote:

By the time they edit the first post the thread basically belongs to whoever starts an actual discussion with it


As I said, I think the discussion isn't likely to be lead by the thread poster anyway.




Vivi -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 16:08:29)

OOC is a discussion board, so of course topics created there need to be a discussion of some sort. A thread will fall under the rule of "No pointless topics" if there's nothing to discuss in it. People do have differing view points and maybe they won't be referring back to the first post anymore once the discussion gets going but the thread starter should still be creating a discussion in their topic post.

The thread starter very much leads the discussion. They decide the topic that people will be discussing in that particular thread.




Ell -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 16:18:29)

Ah but there is always something to discuss in the thread. People can easily talk about the article they've linked to, assuming the article has enough content.

quote:

maybe they won't be referring back to the first post anymore once the discussion gets going but the thread starter should still be creating a discussion in their topic post.


I don't quite understand what you mean by this. Of course the thread starter will be making a discussion, but by "leading a discussion" I mean that everyones posts are centered around one persons views, and either being for or against it. Whilst, as you said, they decide the topic that people will be discussing in that particular thread, they hardly dictate the flow of the conversation, and what part of the articles people are going to focus on.




Vivi -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 16:26:50)

Whether or not someone else can start up a discussion is not the point, if you're creating a thread you should be giving the discussion topic.

People may not be referring back to your post for the entire life of the thread but they should still be discussing the topic you've given. If they're not discussing it they're off-topic. In that sense you are leading the discussion when you create a thread, because the flow of discussion should be centered around the topic you've given.




Ell -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 16:39:52)

Whilst yes, it should be centered around the topic Phoenix, most news articles and other topics are quite broad, and as I mentioned earlier, there are parts of the topic that people would like to focus on, instead of the topic as a whole. Besides, even if you believe this, I don't see why the thread has to be locked, it's incredibly counter-productive.




etching -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/13/2009 20:57:42)

So including a generic question like "What do you think of this?" or "Is this a good idea?"
in the first post isn't good enough, you have to specify your opinion on it as well?




Ell -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/14/2009 7:40:13)

Yep, that's what's currently happening. Otherwise it gets locked, which is a bit strange. :P




Vaka -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/15/2009 22:27:35)

There's a fine line between discussion and redundant discussion. News threads were a problem for the OOC for a long time, because they never used to generate more than a page of discussion, and even then it was simply the same thing said over and over again. The AK's require the thread poster to write a more detailed first post to inspire discussion, yes. We've found in the past that if the first post is simply a "link and discuss", it's either overlooked by members who can't be bothered to read the whole article, or it just generates the same reply over and over by different members.

By straightaway introducing the writer's opinion, you instantly create some diversity and therefore some discussion. If the thread starter goes "I agree with what A said about B because A was wrong to do C", it lets all the forum members know what he/she thinks and allows them to either agree or disagree with him/her. This instant opinion means there's already something to talk about with the article, rather than just going "That's cool." or "Weird article!" etc. Instead of these pointless posts, we get some discussion about why the thread starter thinks this, what other people think etc.

You are right, in some cases, eventually, a forum member comes along and does this themselves. However, more often than not if we leave news threads with just a link, there tends to be little to no discussion. So it was decided that news threads need to have more substance in their first posts.

I hope this covers your query. If it doesn't, feel free to reply or PM me/Circe/other OOC AK's :)




Circe -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/15/2009 23:32:35)

I'd also like to point out that it's not really about their first post. It's about spam.

If you post a thread that has a link to a news article and a sentence that says "people are crazy" you get a thread full of "dude people ARE crazy" and "lolwut?" which isn't discussion. The reason these threads are closed is because a link and a sentence aren't discussions. If you're going to post a thread about a news article, have a reason for it. Have something to say about it. Just posting a link to an article because you want to share it isn't a good enough reason to post - the OOC is not a blog, it's a forum for off topic discussions.




ZanpakuTô -> RE: The "Bad First Post" Problem in OOC. (11/15/2009 23:40:39)

@Circe
Well, actually, it could actually be the first post

The point of a discussion is to discuss a specific topic [even though it's called GENERAL discussion], not simply to have others look at it and 'discuss'; one should provide a topic or topics to discuss about.

Next, what those ArchKnights are trying to get at is to EXPAND on the topic; there is a whole page full of information, so it couldn't be possible for the starter to want to discuss all of it

Finally, those threads are locked because ArchKnights who locked it feel it isn't enough to generate a discussion; if it doesn't generate a discussion, or isn't something to discuss, or isn't in the rules, it will get locked anyways




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