Bring back the classing shops/threads (Full Version)

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Alpha Atom -> Bring back the classing shops/threads (8/26/2010 14:42:46)

Note: I know that classing threads were removed before but please just hear out my suggestion before you say that.

First of all,

What is classing:

Classing is when, depending on skill level, a user is ranked, one of the following ranks;

Professional

Low Professional

High Semi-Professional

Semi-Professional

Low Semi-Professional

High Intermediate

Intermediate

Low Intermediate

High Moderate

Moderate

Low Moderate

High Novice

Novice

Low Novice

Note: These ranks are not officially ranks but are used for art below the standard of Low Novice

Beginner

Low Beginner



Okay, so that's all great, but what does this all mean?

I'll do my best to provide examples of artwork for all the ranks.

Low Novice - http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb3/ultrasugar/official_ivan_800v2.png

Novice - http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg92/GMAN7/Awesome.png

High Novice - http://i402.photobucket.com/albums/pp109/daryel-arena/nejisig.png



Low Moderate - http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/drsynyster/NewCMY.png

Moderate - http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy188/Kyuugi/Tags/crawfish.png

High Moderate - http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq330/abstractasian/dominotag2-1.png



Low Intermediate - http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo210/zooomuh/Inspiration/ellf.png

Intermediate - http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo210/zooomuh/Inspiration/paradigmshift4.png

High Intermediate - http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo210/zooomuh/Inspiration/fittisigIN.png



Low Semi-Pro - http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/Morbidsheep199/experimentcopy.png

Semi-Pro - http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x208/blane-tags/Conduit_gaso_blanev2-1.png

High Semi-Pro - http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo210/zooomuh/Inspiration/nzj71s.png



Low Pro - http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6772/effect3o.png

Pro - http://i48.tinypic.com/1zvy3oh.png



Well, a rank is just an opinion, I don't get caught up in this rubbish

Well of course a rank is just an opinion, but it's an opinion of very knowledgeable GFX artist.
I can guarantee someone will say, I don't get caught up in this rubbish, so I wouldn't do it, then don't, but when nolraitru and the other CA ArchKnights opened a class shop, it reached 8 pages in
about a week. It's obviously a popular thing.

Well, I don't want any random person ranking me, what if they don't know what they're talking about?

That is why I suggest an approval process. It would be like approval into the Gallery, but a lot harder. Since classers need to be knowledgeable but you don't necessarily need many, 5 would generally do, so the difficulty of the process wouldn't matter too much.



The only problem I can see with this is that people might brag about their rank, but if they do that, then you could prevent them from being ranked further, which is part of the joy of a ranking system, it's a great way to see how you've improved.



Thank you for reading my suggestion, if you have any questions, please post them :)




Hallie Slidepath -> RE: Bring back the classing shops/threads (8/26/2010 15:53:43)

I'm not entirely sure if I like this idea, mostly because art can be such a personal thing. If you make the best piece of art you've ever made in your opinion, put it up for ranking, and get quite a low rank on it... well, things like that can go pretty hard on some people. I mean, just imagine that you have been working with art for several years and somehow end up with Beginner?

It's all about not expecting too much, really, but people are people.

It's a nice basic idea though, if it's followed-up well; all classers are reliable people that are good with expressing themselves, there's zero-tolerance towards bragging about ranks/teasing others for their results... there are a lot of things that could go wrong, but if everything, exactly everything is taken care of to the very last detail it could both work and be fun ^.^

I mean, there would have to be different classers, for example. Or maybe a group of few that have insight in a lot of programs. You'd have to put someone into a class not entirely judged from the art-piece, but also from the program. If someone makes something absolutely amazing in MSPaint, but could've made it even better with PS it would be quite unfair to give this person a low class just because of that fact. Things like this makes the whole thing quite complicated too, since there are quite a few art-programs out there and there are different levels you can reach in each one of them.
For example: if an art-piece is quite bad, but still quite good considered the program it was made with... should that be considered as a high class or low class?



Khelios -> RE: Bring back the classing shops/threads (8/26/2010 15:59:47)

I have a few questions regarding this and a few points I would like to bring up:

First, what criteria is used to differentiate different skill levels? Is it just subjective rating or is there objective criteria that is looked at? For instance, why is the "Pro" piece better than "Low Pro?" Myself, and a few people I asked, personally prefer the "Low Pro" piece better in terms of colors used and the ambiance that the colors bring in and glow with. Although it is slightly too dark for my taste, the large explosion of hair above the natural hair line, the horizontal line the hair creates, and the random rainbow used in the upper tiers of hair seems to disrupt the flow of the "Pro" piece. I would like to know some solid criteria that is being used to evaluate pieces and the thought process going on behind it because I do not understand the reasoning behind why things are ranked the way they are. If such a group needed to be created, I more than likely would need a baseline to be able to judge yes/no in order to add them to a group.

Second, what type of art would be included in this - just the standard Photoshop/GIMP stuff or would it be inclusive of more types? From what I recall, these classing systems work best when dealing with tags, and not everyone who may want a rating on their pieces may only use tags. Could accommodations be made for hand-drawn arts or other types of art?

I do have a few other questions regarding this...as for now those are the most pressing ones that I have.



Alpha Atom -> RE: Bring back the classing shops/threads (8/26/2010 16:34:02)

@Hallie

quote:

If you make the best piece of art you've ever made in your opinion, put it up for ranking, and get quite a low rank on it... well, things like that can go pretty hard on some people. I mean, just imagine that you have been working with art for several years and somehow end up with Beginner?


Experience =/= Quality when it comes to art, always. I know myself, I've worked now for a year on GFX and I can only just scrape low moderate. The thing is, you must be aware that when you're posting art for classing, it's going to be honest, sometimes slightly harsh, yet constructive criticism you're going to be getting. You can look at getting beginner two ways, you could say "Oh well I'm rubbish I might as well give up" or you could say "Thank's to the criticism I've received from the classers, I'm going to improve and next time, I'm going to be Novice. If you feel you're going to be disheartened by your rank, it's probably best not to get ranked. If people start taking it too seriously, art doesn't become fun anymore. It's more a measure of improvement, people do enjoy getting classed though, the previous thread proved it.

quote:

If someone makes something absolutely amazing in MSPaint, but could've made it even better with PS it would be quite unfair to give this person a low class just because of that fact.


You see, when it comes to classing, not only do we look at the basics of signature making, depth, lighting, blending, atmosphere, etc. We look at the amount of creativity has gone into the piece. Concept is a big part of signature/art making. People who use MS Paint tend to be pixel artists and those who are good at it, would get high ranks. We have to look at the type of art that is being made too. For example, if you pasted a render in MS Paint and simply added text, and called it a signature, obviously you'd get low beginner. Almost all the types of signature people make in GIMP/PS made in MS Paint would get a low rank. Though, if we look at artists such as Passion, her MS Paint art work would get higher ranks than some of the signature makers on the site.



@Khelios

quote:

Is it just subjective rating or is there objective criteria that is looked at?


When classing we look at a lot of things, firstly, we look at the basics of art making, such as depth, lighting, atmosphere etc. However, once you get past a certain rank, you've mastered all this and we start looking at things like, how much effort did the artist put into this? How much creativity has been put in? After around Solid Moderate, the concept becomes a big part of what your rank is. Have they just pasted and arranged things on a canvas?

quote:

For instance, why is the "Pro" piece better than "Low Pro?


The difference between the Pro piece, and the Low Pro piece, is that in the Pro piece, everything has been made by the artist, from scratch. Everything from the C4D's in the hair to the polka dot background. That's what makes it different from a Low Pro piece.

quote:

Second, what type of art would be included in this - just the standard Photoshop/GIMP stuff or would it be inclusive of more types? From what I recall, these classing systems work best when dealing with tags, and not everyone who may want a rating on their pieces may only use tags. Could accommodations be made for hand-drawn arts or other types of art?


Personally, I have never seen this done. Although, I see no reason why it couldn't. I mean, everyone knows what a good drawing is, and what a bad drawing is, it couldn't be too hard to differentiate and divide it up into classes. Perhaps higher ranks could be awarded if the artist has developed a unique drawing style which nobody else has. The same could go with Flash art, unique Flash shading styles, could be awarded higher ranks, of course only if the shading style was actually any good.



All in all, a lot of ranking is subjective,f or example, if someone had only seen Low Novice tags, show 'em a Solid Moderate tag, and they'd think it was the best in the world. However you do need to be knowledgeable in the world of GFX to give a proper ranking. Classer's need to know what a good tag is. So all in all, a classer needs to know how to properly identify the faults in a piece using the basics but also be able to see how a piece of art, is better than another by thinking about the concept and if the artist made everything from scratch.



I hope I've answered all your questions adequately :)



Khelios -> RE: Bring back the classing shops/threads (8/26/2010 20:37:24)

The Gallery will be undergoing changes soon and there are plans for a board to be made for the purpose of constructively criticizing art. When that opens up, you are more than welcome to rank art that way - however I feel that ranking misses a key portion to art.

Here is my rationale currently:

- Let me compare this to movie critics - certainly movie critics have watched many movies and, like gfx raters, have seen both good and the less spectacular in large amounts. Their view on it does not always coincide with what the public thinks, which can lead to scorn or dismissal from the general public. While the nitty-gritty about technical aspects is often important, especially for art, a movie hated by critics and loved by the public will be successful regardless of the critic's rating. As I said with the semi-pro versus pro-rated piece - if more people like the style of the semi-pro than that of the pro, but you rate them in the opposite way, people won't take you as seriously, even though your reasoning behind the rating may be solid.

- Ars gratia artis, art for art's sake. I do not want this to be a contest - I feel that it should be enjoyed by everyone. You are more than welcome to throw in a serious rating at any piece of artwork based on your tastes; there isn't a pressing need for shops to be made for the purpose of doing this.

Until changes to the gallery have been made, I will not reconsider this idea, because they will be happening shortly and probably would result in the threads closing shortly after they were opened for its upcoming changes.



Alpha Atom -> RE: Bring back the classing shops/threads (8/27/2010 3:51:18)

quote:

I do not want this to be a contest - I feel that it should be enjoyed by everyone.


Classing isn't supposed to be a contest, after all you don't have to partake, but it is clear people did enjoy getting their pieces ranked, from the previous thread.

Either way, I'll wait until the changes have been made.



Hallie Slidepath -> RE: Bring back the classing shops/threads (9/9/2010 8:43:55)

quote:

Classing isn't supposed to be a contest, after all you don't have to partake, but it is clear people did enjoy getting their pieces ranked, from the previous thread.

I just feel I have to say this. Art is subjective, and like Khelios said "art for art's sake". Art is something that can't be rated, or classed or ranked; an art-piece doesn't have to include all things listed in the templates of what is considered a good tag/wallpaper/signature to be brilliant. Someone can be an amazing artist without having half the requirements of what it would take to be ranked as a "pro" and someone else could have all the skills and knowledge that should make him/her a "pro" but still be stuck making art that not many people like or consider good. Art isn't about technique as much as it is about feeling and soul; if you rank art based on technique you practically ignore the part that makes art art. This is why I have a hard time seeing a way for this to work. It's a good idea in some ways, but a lot of creative things work this way, which complicates the classing/ranking. Some musicians get famous for their voice or sound, some for their soul, and some for their lyrics, and some for all parts of that. You can still be considered brilliant when only managing one of these parts though. Same goes for art, you don't need to fulfill every single requirement to be amazing.



Alpha Atom -> RE: Bring back the classing shops/threads (9/9/2010 13:31:15)

quote:

Art is something that can't be rated, or classed or ranked; an art-piece doesn't have to include all things listed in the templates of what is considered a good tag/wallpaper/signature to be brilliant.


It can be rated, many people do it. Anyway, the point is, there are always going to be people that say this and all I have to say, is don't do it. If it "can't be ranked", don't do it. It really is a simple as that, nobody is forcing you to classed. Some people feel it can be classed and they enjoy trying to reach for the next rank. It's almost like a progress meter for some people, I know it is for me. Also, you are clearly a minority in this belief, I keep referring to the previous classing thread, you know why that went? The AK's couldn't keep up with it. So many people wanted to get ranked.

You keep attacking ranking, but you forget, people like it.

quote:

Art isn't about technique as much as it is about feeling and soul; if you rank art based on technique you practically ignore the part that makes art art.


I don't know if I didn't explain it very well last time, when ranking something, you don't just look at the basics, of course, that's what defines the novice pieces and stuff after that, you start to look at other things, creativity, effort and concept. Concept is very much feeling, as is creativity.

quote:

Same goes for art, you don't need to fulfill every single requirement to be amazing.


Not to be a dictator or anything but when it comes down to actually rating a tag by the generally accepted standards, if it doesn't have lighting/depth, it can't get past novice. It just can't.



Hallie Slidepath -> RE: Bring back the classing shops/threads (9/13/2010 11:10:23)

^And that's the problem with ranking, IMO. "General standards" can not really apply to art. A five year old got famous for the way she combined colors, people didn't love the depth because there was none, but they still considered her a miracle and a really skilled artist. This whole story then ended up with people suspecting that it actually was her dad that painted the pictures, but point is that the pictures still were considered wonderful and brilliant without having "general standards" applying to the artpiece. With art you can create a portrait made out of cheetos, and it will be considered amazing, even though it will lack both coloring and depth. All of this can apply to DA too. You can make a tag in paint with pixel art, and it can be amazing, but if only judged with "general standards" and templates the ranking of it would probably end up being quite un-fair.

I mean, everyone who wants to get their art ranked should, but I don't think it's artistic in any way to put a title on someone's art-skills, because art simply doesn't work that way.
You can always have a template for what's right and wrong, especially with DA, but it always comes down to personal preferences, and how the ranking could possibly be done fairly with several people ranking is just hard to imagine.
We've already seen examples of people disagreeing with the examples of "Low Pro"/"Pro". I have a hard time imagening ranking shops where there wouldn't be a lot of more disagreements between people working with the ranking.
But like you say, it's up to everyone whether they want their art judged this way or not. Personally I just think it's a step away from what art actually is and means.



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