Sword slot (Full Version)

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Shun -> Sword slot (2/10/2011 18:05:00)

how do you feel about them adding a sword slot so that you can use both your class wep and your sword and have the sword have a special atack sort of like a side arm?


Discuss




edwardvulture -> RE: Sword slot (2/10/2011 18:08:36)

No way. The stats would add too much.




Shun -> RE: Sword slot (2/10/2011 18:15:03)

yes but is you lowerd the stats to the same a say..... a side arm and raised the dmg on it by like 3-5 points and had a skill for it like side arms and auxillarys ect. you could easily
fit it in and with a one to three hit move with the sword it might improve the battle system and add a sort of slight advantage because swords are not used with most class build successfully




ZirakogluED -> RE: Sword slot (2/10/2011 18:38:25)

Hmmm,So if this does occure..Would it show say for eg. Frostbane and charfade's claws overlaps or just one wep?
~Z




Shun -> RE: Sword slot (2/10/2011 19:22:53)

well i would say they over lap but dont ask me the idea seems to be shot down :\




PD -> RE: Sword slot (2/11/2011 0:33:21)

This could possibly hammer the final nail in the coffin for the game's little remaining island of balance it has left.

This would also cause MASSIVE stat inflation if it contributed to stats. Even if you did lower the points a little (which would require Power Standard Establishment), totals would be skewed.

Long story story - It alienates Non Variums, casual players and non-fully equipped people.

Now let's say it didn't contribute to stats: You could theoretically equip Physical Wristblade and an energy sword. Not only does it make shields useless, it would allow too much power to players.





PRIMAL ASSASSIN -> RE: Sword slot (2/11/2011 4:12:42)

i think it would be a good idea actually because say for example if u have a staff what theres only 1 physical staff in the game so your staff is most likly to be enegry and if u have azreal bane u have a physical primary and a enegry primary at the same time plus the extra stats wouldn't be bad xD




Light Stridr -> RE: Sword slot (2/11/2011 13:59:06)

@ PRIMAL ASSASSIN
This would give your opponents an extra advantage, especially if they are varium.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WE HAVE SIDEARMS FOR?




Nebula -> RE: Sword slot (2/11/2011 14:01:29)

I don't support this. Would just make stat inflation even worse and possible create an even bigger gap between non-varium players and varium players.




PRIMAL ASSASSIN -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 10:43:16)

light stridr

what i'm saying is it;s giving you an option from what weps u want to use like AQ and side arms are for an unblockable attack xD




Zean Zapple -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 10:47:56)

Hehehe, I'd love to have a sword and a primary but, ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Font sizes above three are considered spam thus has been shrunk. ~Omni




Matgon -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 10:55:54)

The scary thing is... that Titan said this might happen. O_O




pokepwner -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 11:04:36)

oh yes, now both variums and non variums can haven ridiculously high stats.BALANCE FTW!!!!




SugahBaby -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 12:23:44)

they should make a dagger and add a slot for it because it would be something new




Omni -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 13:28:46)

Being as how this isn't simply a suggestion but something that Titan has in the past has said it's a possible additional feature. Now keeping that in mind this is also a discussion thread, not a yes or no thread. Posts that simply contain yes or no do not further the discussion and one word posts are considered spam and I had to delete about nine of them. Let's have a good discussion about the effect this would have on balance, how it could be prevented from being terribly over powered, and what positive influences it could have on gameplay as well.

Balance: In it's current state this would be horribly overpowered and would destroy balance entirely with the EPIC stat inflation. It would also cause an even larger gap between Varium and Non Varium. A good point I saw mentioned and hadn't thought of would be it allowing players to bypass many of the defensive situations we are put in on occasion by having an additional source of a different damage type.

Design Features: What would separate the use of having a sword as a primary if you could have one as a secondary? Would swords even be allowed to be primaries? If you can have a sword as a secondary weapon what's keeping someone from having a staff or a club in it's place realistically (Claws being a bit more understandable to not be able to switch out very quickly). So would it be a Sword Slot or a Secondary Weapon Slot? What kind of gameplay changes could we have by allowing people to have their "Class Weapons" (CW) as secondary options.

Suggestions for implementation: I believe we could have this as a working feature that would be a viable option if we did the following things:

Sword Slot or Secondary Slot?: This part is tricky because the idea of being able to carry around two staves, clubs, claws would add for much more customization than just having a primary and a sword. In my opinion it works out best balance wise by having it as a sword slot instead of a Secondary Slot to help eliminate balance issues. Swords as primary weapons would go out the window if you could carry one anyway so there would need to be some benefit to having a sword in place of a CW such as having more base damage. I believe this is the idea anyway to be able to carry a CW and a Sword but I don't think you should have to have a CW and that having Two Swords should be okay simply because it adds more build varieties with a price of not being able to use certain skills but a possible increase in straight damage.

Sword Stats: Swords would no longer have just primary weapon stat points but would also have entirely separate stats that would be added. Stat points would be about a third as a secondary weapon with them also having half of the amount of main extra enhancements (This would make enhancing a weapon more valuable because you'd also gain from it as a primary or a secondary. Example Frostbane has 24 Stat Points as a Primary. As a secondary it would have a third of the 24 points meaning it would give 8 points as a secondary weapon. Each weapon would have their primary stats reflect their main stats in most cases so Frostbane would like give 3 Dex 3 Tech and 2 Support as a secondary Weapon. It would also be given 5 enhancement slots which is half of the 10 Frostbane has possible. This allows for a pretty even stat increase around the board which prevents issues that are caused by weapons having too much of one stat which leads to stat abuse.

Selecting which weapon to use: We'd of course need to be able to pick between using the Primary or the sword. This is doable by having the Primary Weapon work when using Strike, an icon to strike with the Sword (Kind of like our Gun/Aux option now), but we'd also need an option that occurs after selecting certain skills such as Malfunction which could be used by a Staff or a Sword. I see this envisioned somewhat like how choosing a person to attack in 2v2 if that makes sense, you would click the skill then the option between primary and sword would pop up.

Sword Cooldown: As mentioned with too many options for weapon attacks having high Def/Res and ignoring the other no longer becomes viable and shields simply become far too easy to bypass. There are a few possible ways to fix this to a degree. Add a turn or two cool-down in between using the Sword in the Sword Slot, this cooldown would be applied to it being used for skills and for striking (So you couldn't Use SmokeScreen with your Sword to make it physical and then use the sword again to abuse the physical resistance that was jut lowered. This allows for an extra damage type on occasion as opposed to always being an extra damage type option.




ND Mallet -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 13:35:51)

It's going to be awfully hard to make it balanced. The sword will have to have low stats or else it will make more overpowered builds. It needs low damage or else str builds will be able to have 2 weapons of different damage types with no cooldown for either and be able to dominate the battle field. But on the other hand, too little stats or damage and no one will use it for any purpose. Plus you have other things to question as well. How will Hunters dual wield a sword and claws? You would need to code that and change the animation of the other classes as well so they could hold a sword and their class weapon. It would be nice to have more customization like this but it would be too hard to balance without it sompletely sucking or destroying all balance.




H3P04 -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 14:33:16)

No way you should make a sword slot. Right now it is the last thing you need in this game. It would just either make this game :
1)More unbalanced
2)Make the difference between varium and F2P players even more wider. ( right now it is too wide already)
3)Ruin the class skill system which somebody would have to do almost from scratch again.
4)Make this game more expensive for the existing varium top players, because they will have to buy another varium weapon.
5)Waste one week for another update or more.
6)Got no clue but I bet it could something bad also, except the above mentioned.

P.S. Sorry to cut your idea down, but I think that this is the last thing that the Titan and everyone else should, because there are so much thing better to implement then this like:
1)Faction Takeover
2)Bigger variety of weapons for F2p.
3)Higher top lvl like 33 or 34 or maybe even 35.
4)Quests and other adventures.
5)2vs 1 Boss fights.
6) Balancing this game better and getting rid of some of the useless limits to your stats and skills.
7)Varium sellback and enchancment sellback.
8)Give some speed boost to this game.
9)Improve the games safety to hacking and kill bugs and glitches.
10) More and more stuff.

P.S.S.Wow epicduel team really you should start doing some work and stop doing thing's that aren't needed like war kills leaderboard and rarity leaderboard. You already have your work cut out for you for a long time and avoiding it will never make the problem go away so good luck on quests, which I hope you will not postpone just like you did with faction takeover.




od -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 14:40:08)

I can't really picture my self holding a sword and a staff at the same time. But maybe a dagger




Polandor -> RE: Sword slot (2/12/2011 15:27:20)

No it really not needed.
It would imbalance the game (even more), and increase stat boost is the reverse of what is needed to achieve better balance.

Now maybe an option to swap weapon in combat, with one in your backpack, or secondary slot, but costing a full turn to do so (and possibly reducing your defense and res by -25% until your next turn to represent the danger of swapping gear in combat).
You would get the bonus only from the current weapon being equipped.




Master K -> RE: Sword slot (2/13/2011 16:59:12)

How about making the gun slot able to be interchangable with swords.
Gun attack would become a sword attack.




Nebula -> RE: Sword slot (2/13/2011 17:22:58)

@Polandor - That would make it a terrible feature that virtually no one would use because it would basically make you lose if you ever used it because you'd lose a turn and on that turn take 25% more damage.




Ashari -> RE: Sword slot (2/13/2011 19:01:29)

This is a pretty interesting idea, but it comes down to what it would bring to the game vs. what it would take away.

Let's just assume we're going to use Omni's situation where swords will only have 1/3 of the total stats of other Primaries and retain half of their enhancement slots. Also, lets assume that swords are usable with all strike skills (ie: Malfunction, Cheap Shot, Berzerker, Double Strike) and have a 3 turn cooldown.


The Problems:
The extra stats and enhancement slots will only serve to further widen the Varium gap. Like all other equipment, Varium swords will probably have 1-2 more stats than their non-Varium counterparts. Similarly, any more enhancements slots indirectly widen the gap since Varium players are much more likely and much more able to purchase enhancements for their equipment. The high credit cost for enhancements is very restrictive, so only the most active non-Varium players would even be able to utilize the extra set of enhance slots on the sword.

Having another type of attack would make shields even weaker. As it stands now, a well equipped player can have 4 possible attacks (5 if they are using Gamma Bot). Given the popularity (and success) of 5 focus builds for all the classes, every single one of these attacks can be effective. This means at most, a Defense Matrix or Energy Shield will only be effective 2 out of 4 turns. Adding an extra type of attack, even with a cooldown, will just make all the shield spells virtually useless.
Let look at this situation:
    A player has Physical Primary, Energy Sword, Energy Gun, Physical Auxiliary, Gamma Bot. This means the player has 3 Physical and 3 Energy attacks. Even with a longer cooldown on Sword (say 3 turns), this rotation is still possible:
    Opponent casts Defense Matrix... Energy Gun -> Energy Sword -> Gamma Bot Special (Energy) -> Energy Gun ...Defense Matrix fades
By adding another type of attack, you've reduced the effectiveness of shields from 50% to 0%.

This change would only further serve to unbalance already powerful builds. What I'm talking about specifically are Strength builds and 5 Focus builds.
Strength builds would benefits from this in that they now have 3 attacks (Strike, Sidearm, and Sword) that benefits from Strength. This means that you won't be able to stop a Maul / Berzerker Mercenary by having high Dexterity (or a high Defense Matrix/Reflex Boost) anymore, because he will probably be carrying an Energy Sidearm and Energy Sword. The same is true for Strength Bounty Hunters. This build was just brought back down to a more balanced level after the Shadow Arts nerf. It's greatest weakness are tank builds that can cover their physical defenses. If the BH can carry an Energy Sword along with an Energy Sidearm then there is little that can stop their damage.
----Besides the already extreme builds, 5 focus would be the next candidate for becoming imbalanced. With everyone being able to attack with both Physical and Energy, 5 focus builds will become popular since they can cover both Defense and Resistance very well, as well as abuse all the attack types (as mentioned in the example in my previous point). What this comes down to is locking the game down (argubly even further than it is now) to 1 or 2 successful builds per class.


The Benefits:
The pro side of this feature is that it gives swords a purpose. Originally swords were the promotional items that had more stats and damage than equivalent Clubs, Wrist Blades and Staves. Now, due to stat inflation, the small stat and damage bonus swords give is outweighed by the functionality of class specific weapons that allow more skills to be used.



Some ideas to fix these problems:
- Remove enhancement slots from Swords. All these do is serve to widen the Varium gap. If swords are going to serve as a secondary weapon, they should be treated the same way as sidearms are.
- Increase Gun cooldown to 3. Set Sword Cooldown to 3. Put Gamma Bot's Attack and Special on a shared 2 turn cooldown. This will give make shields useful in combat again.
- Have sword damage increased by a stat other than strength. A third attack increased by strength would give that stat far too much power. A good idea is to have it increased by a combination of stats. 50% of it's damage should come from Strength, and the other 50% of its damage would come from Support.



The TLDR version:
Sword slot would:
  • Con: Make Strength Builds overpowered
  • Con: Force everyone else into 5 Focus builds
  • Con: Make Shields useless
  • Con: Increase the Varium gap
  • Pro: Give swords a purpose

    This could be viable if:
  • Swords had no enhancement slots
  • Swords had a long cooldown, Gun cooldown increased, Gamma Bot cooldowns linked.
  • Sword damage was not increased just by strength. A combination of Str + Support should increase sword damage.

    My opinion: A change to swords is needed, otherwise they will quickly be phased out of most builds (it's already happening). It just has to be handled carefully, because there is a lot of room to imbalance the game with a change like this.




  • goldslayer1 -> RE: Sword slot (2/13/2011 21:46:35)

    i dont think this would unbalance anything.
    and technicaly u can hold a sword with wrist blades. i mean the wristblades are in the side of ur arms and not on ur hands. so its possibe.
    either way this is a good idea. this may also give non varium better builds
    (e.g tech mages with caden's wrath and a valentines sword, allowing them to have more stats)

    as for varium well i think it would still be fine. an issue we have these days is having more varieties. so maybe having a physical maul while an energy sword, allows us to do damage from energy against some opponents (without cooldowns)




    Xheroh -> RE: Sword slot (2/13/2011 21:55:39)

    I'd much rather see a feature where we can change items in combat. Be it during our turn as well as our attack, or it could simply take up the turn in it's entirety.

    ~X




    Sparticus -> RE: Sword slot (2/13/2011 23:44:21)

    I see no reason not to have this feature available. A simple toggle that allows you to change weapons between two already pre-chosen weapons, one must be a sword and the other a class specific weapon. The stats would change as well so when you change your weapon you also get the stats that weapon carries and lose the stats of the weapon you are disarming. There would be no stat inflation and no special animation required other then changing your weapon from one to another. If your stats are wacky due to dissimilar stats on your weapon, that's tough luck. Better choose two weapons that are similar enough that you can match up stats or lose your levels. Builds could be more open to utilizing the entire stat tree but since you still can only allot so many stat points you can't really abuse this.

    As far as balance; since the stats shouldn't stack there isn't any problem with stats that don't already exist and there are/were many non-varium swords available so I don't see what the fuss would be?

    Titan did say he was interested in this option at some point but I suppose there are many other important items on the list to code before this.




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