RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (Full Version)

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goldslayer1 -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 13:53:17)

quote:

Now, Hybrid is possibly one of the biggest game changers. It gives 12 defence without the need for energy consumption.
To be fair, the BH/TM could use their own shield (DM or ES), but that wastes a turn and allow the merc to build rage.

if mercs hybrid is so good, then why do str BH "laugh" at it so hard?
i turned into a str Bh this morning and i fought a few mercs. their hybrid wasn't a problem.
i fought a support merc with like 140 support, not a problem either.


quote:

Reducing Dex has little to no effect on a sup merc, who will confine him/herself to using only unblockables. It is detrimental to the more extreme forms of str merc and the effectiveness of a 5 focus merc, but tanks mercs will sit there and continue laughing.
For Smokescreen, you already have AT LEAST TWO types of mercs which can easily counter it.

ill tell u now why str BH are effective on mercs. due to stat diminishments (after 55 stats) it requires more dex to advanace to next defense lvl most mercs keep low dex about 50-60 dex. now with a skill like smokescreen, the less dex u have the more defense smokescreen will take.
example if ur dex is 54 and u take away 33 dex with a lvl smoke, ur defense drops to 7-9.
now if u have like 121 dex and ur smoke screen takes away 33 dex, ur defense drops from 33-40 to 26-30
now with the low dex version u drop 11 defense (u would drop 1 more if the smoke was 34 and not 33) the dex version it drop 7 defense lvl.) u and i both know mercs wont go overboard with dex because of hybrid. so they mostly have low dex.

quote:

Malf is a little different.It reduces the bot damage, which affects tank mercs -no, wait, they'll continue laughing- and 5 focus mercs. The actual resist reduction will do nothing to stop str mercs and only hinder most decent supp mercs.
Again, AT LAST TWO THREE builds which counter malf.

ok let me stop u right there. a malf of 30-40 drops ur bot range 6-8. it also reduces the ammount of damage from 2 of these 3 unblockables.
and nothing stops strength merc? from that "opinion" right there i can already tell u never been a strength merc.
when strength merc gets malfed, its over 2 turns later.
its simple against strength mercs, malf gun aux. and they dead.
and if u think them going first stunning u and then berserker on u means ur dead, then ur wrong. i used a variation of a heal loop build. when i went into fights i only lost to 5 focus BH, and no strength merc came close to beating me. i had a few that stunned and did berserker, and then gun critted and i still won without problems. the 5 focus BH was a whole diff story (i only beat 2-3 out of like 10 total fights). str Bh wasn't a problem either with the heal loop build i had. (basicaly the only build that gave me problems was 5 focus BH, the rest weren't so hard)

quote:

And let's not forget Intimidate. This is a little less annoying in some ways, but can be used to as great effect as any of the other two debuffs.
Oh and Assault Bots, with their anti-debuff capability.
this is only effective with str builds. its different from smoke or malf.

quote:

3 words. Support merc rages.

did i mention that i class changed to BH today? that support merc i fought today with like 140 support critted me 3 times, one with artilery, another one with gun and another with aux. yet i still won.



Light Stridr -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 14:32:07)

Well done, at least you show that you know a lot about this game.
But I still have a few questions.

This is all well and good in 1v1, and I'll admit, balance there is the best it has been for some time now, though at a cost.
But what of 2v2?
If you come up against 2 mercs who know what they are doing, there is still a very good chance you are dead.
Especially if they play the focus fire strategy from the first turn.

And Again, Assault bots counter malf and smoke. You didn't address that problem I mentioned.



goldslayer1 -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 14:39:12)

quote:

Well done, at least you show that you know a lot about this game.

thanks


quote:

But what of 2v2?
If you come up against 2 mercs who know what they are doing, there is still a very good chance you are dead.
Especially if they play the focus fire strategy from the first turn.

yes 2 vs 2 is a big issue. and mercs are good at 2 vs 2.
altho some say they are OP, 2 vs 2 support mercs can easily be defeated by BH with EMP.
an energy-less merc is a dead one in 2 vs 2. specially if they are support because that means they rely on artillery and heal when needed.
there are skill BH that have managed 80% winrates in 2 vs 2. same goes for mages (i tried to go for 2 vs 2 champ once with mage, couldn't play the last 3 hours so i lost it, but i had about 280 wins with 80%+ about 81 or 82)

quote:

And Again, Assault bots counter malf and smoke. You didn't address that problem I mentioned.

it also counters intimidate, its like saying 5 focus merc is so good, when basically all 5 focus builds are good.



Light Stridr -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 14:57:27)

quote:

altho some say they are OP, 2 vs 2 support mercs can easily be defeated by BH with EMP.

Not this again.



goldslayer1 -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 15:03:22)

@light
not this again but the arguement that EMP screws up support mercs is right every time.
without energy to use artillery or heal, all they have is their aux.
aside from that they are sitting ducks.



Wootz -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 15:43:11)

Ok, so:

Just for the first thing, let's chat about Merc's who Troll about SA: It's well known that Merceneries when commented about them being OP'd troll BH's SA. Seriously, now; There's no need to troll a skill witch partly counters they're Hybrid Armor ( Now if HA get's lowered to +10, then it'll be fully fair ). We all, or atleast some remeber the time before SA came'd. And, let's face it , BH's still pwned everyone, so there is NO need to troll a skill which was; in my opinion; not needed.

Support Merces: Just 7 minutes ago, I fought in a 2 vs. 2 battle. 1 BH ( me, using a High STR build ) with a High SUP build Merceneries, againts two High SUP Build Merceneries. Let's recap the battle. 1st: Enemy Mercenery used Auxiliary on me, and critted taking 63 HP, almost instantly K.O.'d me. 2nd: My partner, healing me for 43 HP ( I was yay ). 3rd: second enemy mercenary used Auxiliary on me crittin' and taking 67 HP. And I got killed before I even used my SS. And the battle has been lost. So, by having a pretty strong Aux and a massive ammount of Support you're good as dead. There's always the EMP Granade which destroyes the EP of the Mercenary so that he/she can't use Artiliery Strike, but they always have a good Aux to counter that and you might be K.O.'d in 2 turns, top. Unfortunatly, since SA was nerfed too much we can't deflect that, since they're Support is usully two or even more times higher then ours, so we BH's are sitting ducks. It's another story if you're playing as a Tech Mage using a High Support build. Since you can basicly use DM to give you +31 Defense and having a Malf that can take around 40 Tech from the opponent, and then using a Aux, for example Frost Cannon, making a lethal damage of around 70 Damage. In short, Tech Mage's have the ability to counter the Merc's with a High Support build by using a similiar build as theyr's. But the BH's can't counter it.

Bunker Blast Merc's: One of the most common build that you may encounter when fighting againts a Merc is a BB + AS build. They basicly take around 20-40 Damage with BB, which ignores some defense and has a slight chance of critting ( Which is very often, especially if the Merc has a lot of Support ), and then completly destroying you with the AS. That build can, fortunatly be matched by a High STR BH build, if you manage to survive those 2 attacks. After that, Merc's are sitting ducks as they have no EP left to use a skill. The same thing is if you're a Tech Mage, and you can even reduce the damage ratio of the BB with Malf. In short, BB + AS Merc's can be matched by both BH's and TM's.

Venom Strike: Firstly, I know this thread is to discuss about Merc's being OP'd, but there needs to be the skill that penetrates through the builds of a Merc. A good build for a BH that wants to easily beat a Tanker Mercenary is a Venom Strike + Multi Shot build. Venom Strike in total takes 33 Damage from the enemy and the Multi Shot, since Merc's rarely change they're Hybrid Armor to Resistance buff, the Multi Shot can be a killer. Leaving the Mercenery with a low ammount of HP which can be easily takken with a Energy weapon. Unfortunatly for Tech Mages, they have nothing like Venom Strike. And this is a good thing for a BH.

5 Focus, robot build: Since they can easily use a perfectly awesome 5 focus build, which can actually affect they're skills in a good way they can easily destroy us with a Gamma Bot. Simply by having a good Tech buff, which is easily achievable with the Enchantments and the stat buffs given by weapons. And you can only match it if you block atleast one of the attacks from the Robot, which can be done with BHs SA ( The only good thing SA has so far, My opinion, don't troll about it! ) and they can be easily out-matched by a STR BH or a High SUP TM. So, build = Busted ( In some cases )

Varium/Non-Varium types: Let's say that you have a non-varium Bounty Hunter and you fight againts a non-varium SUP build Merc. It's normal that the Merc will win the fight, since the BH doesn't have the good gear to win the match. But if you are a Varium BH with a High STR build ( Which Intimidate doesn't affect much ) you're certain to win if you're fighting againts a High Sup build Merc on 1 vs 1 ( Both Varium and F2P Mercs). The F2P Mercs can still make a good punch since they have good builds with some skills that are unblockable unlike the other classes ( Exception for Tech Mage's ). TM can be a decent opponent againts the Merc's both F2P and Varium ones. Since they can get a +34 damage dealing AUX and can Malf you for 40 Tech if they have a High Sup build, and they can counter both Merc's and BHs easily.

In short, mostly the battles ARE Balanced if you use a good build; but there are cases when a Mercenary is OP'd. Especially with a High Damaging AUX and AS. Still, the game is still in the Gamma Testing and I'm sure the battles will be balanced sooner or later ( I hope. )

Note: Please, don't troll me that all this is a lie and that I need to try using a Merc. I have both Merc and BH that are Varium, and F2P ones. And, also I have a TM, so all of this, Is a TRUE fact. Live with it.



goldslayer1 -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 15:49:06)

@speedy
ur lvl 27 right?

if so, then maybe that explains how a merc crits 63 or 67
since its not possibly with merc, however i done it with tech mages by malfing valery and using aux. (71 was my highest)
but the support merc never came close to doing 60s
its usually 45-50 damage



Wootz -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 15:54:18)

@goldslayer1 BH: 30, 28, 27, 27, 8
Merc: 31, 27
TM: 26, 15, 6

Really that depends on the defense, which I usually keep very low, since I only add stats into STR and TECH, P armors ftw.



goldslayer1 -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 15:57:06)

@speedy
the expirience of being a low lvl fighting a higher lvl is completely different than being on same grounds
the ammount of support required to do 63 and 67 is way too high, they would basically lack alot of defense and hp.
if they have really low def and hp then u should take advantage of it and use that against them.

whats is ur ammount of tech?
and ur agility.



Wootz -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 16:00:00)

@Gold

What character? xD

Anyways, it's always about 50-60 Tech + buffs

Merged double post. ~Syr



goldslayer1 -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 16:10:41)

@speedy
thats 18-22 to 21-26
in order to do that much damage u would need energy eggzookas, and about 147 support.



Goony -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 17:01:02)

I say check the leaderboards on solo, it's all BH... It's Mercs in team and from what I have been told Tech Mages do pretty well in Juggernaut.

@ Speedy, what Gold is trying to say is that the game changes at the highest level and he is right.


The only injustice here is that threads like this are allowed to be discussed, yet when a suggestion that may help the game is discussed it is locked... huh, we can discuss the worst part of the game features and trash the balance left, right and centre. Yet, when we try to move the game forward with interesting topics they are locked and we as a community are left to troll through trash threads like this!



Lectrix -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/6/2011 18:44:27)

@Above: This is General Discussion; if you want to make a Suggestion, maybe you should try the Suggestions Forums..?


Regarding the EMP Argument... again:

quote:

EMP Grenade basically uses up a turn, so that your opponent can perform a weaker attack; nevertheless, your opponent still attacks (AND increases their Rage Meter).

Some Mercs are carrying Energy Boosters these days. EMP Grenade --> Energy Booster means you both wasted a turn.


Regarding the Leaderboards:

The Leaderboards don't necessarily tell us which Classes are overpowered in which which Battle Modes. Keep in mind that that there are variations including the amount of time we play, whether or not we farm NPCs, etc.

However, it is possible to get a good idea of which Classes are overpowered, not by looking at the Leaderboards, but by looking at the Battles. We can simply observe Battles that will show us which Classes are more numerous in which Battle Modes. From personal observations, I've seen that Mercs make up the majority of 2v2 Players, and that Mercs are slowly becoming more numerous in 1v1 (I haven't tried Juggernaut yet).

If one Class is seen more often than the others, I think we can come to the conclusion that that Class is overpowered.



Wootz -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 7:17:55)

@Gold Battle Elf: 80 + 48 Support, Energy Eggzoka, Malfuncion. 'Nuff said.

@Goony The only injustice is that Merc's Hybrid Armor gives a +12 buff, while SA gives 10%, and was way over-nerfed. It'll be more balancing putting both of those skill at +10 and 10% or +12 and 12%.

@Lectrix I agree about the Leadeboards, and yes, Merc's are countered way more on 2 vs 2. And have been showing up more the ever before on 1 vs 1. So, they're OP'd since people change they'r class into a Merc to use they're perfectly OP'd builds.



goldslayer1 -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 7:54:51)

its just funny to see people QQ about mercs.
if u put as much effort into making a better build and strategy like u do in bashing them in the forums, then maybe u just might beat them.
alot of people who bash the mercs, never been a merc, and some already said they will never be a merc.
so before u judge a merc and say they are OP, atleast try to be a merc and see for urself that its just as difficult as being any of the other classes.



Wootz -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 8:15:09)

I have spent thousands of credits for retraining, and by that I ruined most of my older accounts. So, now I just use a STR BH build. Here's my Merc's Characther Page And by that <.< You can't bash me with that argument.



Light Stridr -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 12:46:51)

quote:

so before u judge a merc and say they are OP, atleast try to be a merc and see for urself that its just as difficult as being any of the other classes.

*Coughs and points to his character page*



Goony -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 12:53:57)

You don't have a clue how to make a build, so you just squeal on the forums about how underpowered mages are and that mercs are so OP!

Gimme some evidence, here's mine:

My poor weak mage!



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 15:10:31)

Mages can compete. There are various types of builds one can use. The only limitation Mages have, it is build diversity within skills. With my current build, it was merely a test, but was quite effective in competing. I don't rate my matches off of victors, but the ability to compete with various builds. Only a small amount of builds I do struggle with, but for the majority, my build does well.

Mages do some things very well, and with that, try to take advantage of those.

~JZaanu



Firewallblast -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 15:14:38)

Okay.... There lots of builds that work to counter mercs ppl just don't want to try new things( I don't care how many times u've retrained every weak the concept of ur build is still the same). True there is a little bit more variety in merc's builds but bh's and mage's have decent builds too. A smoke weakens a build drastically and so does a malf, ur argument is u have to spend 1 turn to use a buff well mercs have to spend a turn to debuff in which in a 2v2 u could die next turn. Mercs don't complain about just SA we complain about the combo of BS and SA (which I don't really care about I just wanted to point that out) Mages have reroute which is a pain but mages need it to have good defense,health,and support. I personally would gladly trade HA for BS. Nerfs are not needed at least buffs would do but really right now we (all classes) just got the hang of stat diminishes.



Wootz -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 16:34:15)

Let's talk about the past for a bit, shall we?
Do ya'll remeber early gamma. The times when BHs had a 70+ Dexterity build without counting weapon buffs. Does everyone remeber the exact threads like this only to say that BHs are OP'd? Then after that, SA came. Do you remeber the trolling to nerf it down? So clearly, the only nerf Merc's had that impacted they're effectivness was Hybrid's armor Max defense/resistance to +12, which is crap. While for every little Merc who complained about BHs and TMs being OP'd in one way or another the DEVs nerfed our classes. 'Nuff said.



goldslayer1 -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 16:37:14)

quote:

*Coughs and points to his character page*

dude i might be a BH because i switched yesterday morning. and i was merc before.
u know what that means? im not afraid to try out new things.
i class change alot. i must have class change about 15 times by now if not close to 20.
i have mage builds, BH builds, and merc builds.

merc builds:
5 focus/tech
support
strength

BH:
5 focus
str bh
support
tech BH

mages:
5 focus
support
str mage
caster mage
heal loop

quote:

I have spent thousands of credits for retraining, and by that I ruined most of my older accounts.

spending thousand of credits on retraining doesn't mean u fixed ur mistake from the old build.
many people have spend thousand of credits retraining (with obvious items, i seen BH try to do version of str bh, but their stats are all wrong and their energy isn't right. like they smoke but they cant use massacre. or how their stats aren't on point) yet they continue to fail on making better builds. why should the game suffer because of ur lack of experience?



Lectrix -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 17:10:19)

quote:

mages:
5 focus
support
str mage
caster mage
heal loop

"Caster Mage"?!? "Heal Loop"?!? Seriously?!? We all know that Caster Mages don't stand a chance at high Levels, and Heal Looping doesn't work anymore unless you use Boosters.

What we should be looking at are the Skills that are used by each Build.

No matter which Build they use, Tech Mages are restricted to the basic Malfunction --> Deadly Aim + Reroute technique

Bounty Hunters usually stick to Smoke Screen --> Massacre with Blood Lust and Shadow Arts

But Mercs? They're a different story.

Strength Mercs use Maul --> Beserker (and possibly Double Strike)

Support Mercs use Artillery Strike

5 Focus Tech Mercs use Bunker Buster

It's almost as if Mercs are 3 Classes in 1. Why? Because Mercs have few (if any) hard-to-use Skills, and can use separate Skills in completely different (but equally effective) Builds.

Maybe that's the reason why we see so many Mercs?



goldslayer1 -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 17:22:59)

@lectrix
wow i would love to show u the new heal loop build i made, the last one i had was 98%+ at about 30-35 wins an hour
the new one hasn't been tested, but since i dont want a new OP build to re-rise ill keep it to myself (i may release it later tho once im done testing)
caster mages aren't completely bad.
get some good ammount of tech/dex, a malf that does around -30 tech reroute for obvious reasons. think of reroute as hybrid, its needed in the classes for effective builds.

like i said mages have just as many builds as any other class. but it takes creativity to make them.
strength mage with physical gun and celtic cleaver with a good malf = ur dead.
i would say it may be just as good as str merc but with a better %

and u just lost the arguement by not saying that ALL CLASSES have 5 focus. and IMO the 5 focus BH is the best.

quote:

It's almost as if Mercs are 3 Classes in 1. Why? Because Mercs have few (if any) hard-to-use Skills, and can use separate Skills in completely different (but equally effective) Builds.

well if its hard to use then i guess ur not up to the challenge, and if ur not up to the challenge ur not really getting the experience from that.



Lectrix -> RE: INJUSTICE! (In other words, Mercs are Overpowered) (6/7/2011 17:43:10)

and u just lost the arguement by not saying that ALL CLASSES have 5 focus. and IMO the 5 focus BH is the best.

Even 5 Focus Tech Mages use Malfunction --> Deadly Aim + Reroute, and 5 Focus Bounty Hunters use Smoke Screen --> Massacre with Blood Lust and Shadow Arts. Keep in mind that I was talking about the Skills that are used in each Build.



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