RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (Full Version)

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*Nova* -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 17:57:29)

quote:

A sword with one attack and a sword with two attack for the same price...common sense?

Depends on whether the first sword's ability is better than the two abilities of the second sword or not.
Maybe it's like this: The first sword has a ability to steal 25% of both health and mana while the second sword has two abilities, one of them is the 25% life steal and the other is the 25% mana steal. In this sense, it makes sense why they cost the same... Kind of.

quote:

Other games don't have this problem?

Thanks for the fact. I think I'll use it. If you now know that other companies do the same thing so how can you say that the ED Team would be any different?

quote:

fun = all varium
competitive = op

This is a wrong idea. If you're competitive then you have brought all the new items every release. How can you be more overpowering than the other players if you have the same exactly items?
If you're all varium, how is that always fun in some sense? Sure, you'll mostly likely be strong but the fact that it is the items that are giving you the power and not your own critical thinking, it makes it not fun to some.
quote:

You want nerf so that stronger players will bow down to you.

You're arguing to gain fame with the masses.

I'm arguing because i've put up with this long enough.

How does wanting a nerf to make things more balance, make stronger players bow to me? We're supposed to be more equal, how can I make someone bow to me if he and I are the same? Please, answer this for me.

I'm arguing to gain fame? Ha, as if. I don't even play this game anymore but I will not sit-back and watch the game fall into more unbalance than it already is.



Death -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:03:27)

quote:

I see the future through the past. Any player who has played long enough knows the cycle:

1. ED releases op
2. People buy
3. They nerf
repeat..

That's call rebalancing....

Like what Digital X mentioned; trial and error.
Testing makes improvements. Obviously this can't be perfected on the first release.



mehmehmehmeh -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:08:49)

K I'll answer that for you. Like i've stated before, perfection is impossible. You won't be satisfied until we've been nerfed until you can kill us, and it's impossible to have a 50% chance to win in this game. Therefore, you cry for nerf until we're under you, then after u 100% us you would be silent. Then we would cry for nerf. Cycle?

"As if"..in your previous post you stated that no one would back me up with the reasons that i had. Why do i WANT people to back me up? I'm speaking for those who are sick of being scammed unknowingly by the people who we have no power over. Obviously you WANT people by your side, so you'll feel bigger.
Watch the "balance" update. See if it stops people from crying op.

quote:

quote:

I see the future through the past. Any player who has played long enough knows the cycle:

1. ED releases op
2. People buy
3. They nerf
repeat..

That's call rebalancing....

Like what Digital X mentioned; trial and error.
Testing makes improvements. Obviously this can't be perfected on the first release.


The whole point of testing is that it's perfect on release

Merged double post. Removed excessive quoting. ~Ashari

EDIT:@Ashari im too lazy to quote then put my words between them. Why can't you just leave them there..



Death -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:17:31)

@ mehmehmehmeh:
But its not perfect...
Unless you think OP = Perfection.



*Nova* -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:17:39)

quote:

It's comparison, not story. You can't pop random things into it.

I'm not making a story. I'm making it into a 'what if' sort of thing.
quote:

Testing system sucks? We outnumber them about 5000 to 50, but they only see us as cash crops.

Yes, there are more players. Again, thank you for enforcing my theory that just because Staff tested it. It does not make it perfect.
quote:

The way your saying it, competitive players would always have meta. COUGH OP.

Varium is more fun than non varium, no matter how you put it. Where's your "critical thinking" on your non varium account?

It's more fun for a varium because all they have to do is buy the most recent items whereas non-varium has to work their minds off to stay suitable to the fighting.
Again, I don't play anymore because I simply don't like the game.
quote:

K I'll answer that for you. Like i've stated before, perfection is impossible. You won't be satisfied until we've been nerfed until you can kill us, and it's impossible to have a 50% chance to win in this game. Therefore, you cry for nerf until we're under you, then after u 100% us you would be silent. Then we would cry for nerf. Cycle?

I won't satisfied until we are closer to balance, though I do agree balance is impossible. I still believe that some balance is better than none.
Lol, do you even know what balance means? Balance is not 100% to win where you OP players want the 100% ratio. You guys will be whinning/complaining nonstop once they've somewhat nerfed Tach. Merc.
quote:

"As if"..in your previous post you stated that no one would back me up with the reasons that i had. Why do i WANT people to back me up? I'm speaking for those who are sick of being scammed unknowingly by the people who we have no power over. Obviously you WANT people by your side, so you'll feel bigger.
Watch the "balance" update. See if it stops people from crying op.

Lol. Why are you answering me on that now? You've finally find a fair-argument to throw at me? And like account scamming. Money scams are entirely your fault and not the Devs' fault.

I'll watch the update and I'll be so happy when the OP-ness is gone while you will be crying for it to come back.



mehmehmehmeh -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:19:06)

quote:

@ mehmehmehmeh:
But its not perfect...
Unless you think OP = Perfection.


Then there would be no point in testing.

It seems like this is the first pvp game ever played..

OP will always exist whether you like it or not

Perfection is impossible



*Nova* -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:21:47)

quote:

OP will always exist whether you like it or not

Yes, maybe so. But the Devs will find some ways of nerfing every one of them, whether you like it or not
Same with lag, the lag is always there but they continue to try and reduce it.



Death -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:24:41)

@ mehmehmehmeh: Ah, so player Feedback is false as well, I presume?
As you said, Staff testing will always make perfection.

quote:

Perfection is impossible

And as Nova stated multiple times...
quote:

I won't satisfied until we are closer to balance, though I do agree balance is impossible. I still believe that some balance is better than none.

Of Course Perfection is impossible, but as much as possible won't hurt.



mehmehmehmeh -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:26:33)

quote:

It's comparison, not story. You can't pop random things into it.

I'm not making a story. I'm making it into a 'what if' sort of thing.

What if the game was perfect?
quote:

Testing system sucks? We outnumber them about 5000 to 50, but they only see us as cash crops.

Yes, there are more players. Again, thank you for enforcing my theory that just because Staff tested it. It does not make it perfect.

No. Because only the staff tested it, it CAN'T be perfect. That's why the players are angry.
quote:

The way your saying it, competitive players would always have meta. COUGH OP.

Varium is more fun than non varium, no matter how you put it. Where's your "critical thinking" on your non varium account?

It's more fun for a varium because all they have to do is buy the most recent items whereas non-varium has to work their minds off to stay suitable to the fighting.
Again, I don't play anymore because I simply don't like the game.

They release non varium items with varium ones. They're weaker..but of course critical thinking makes up for that.
quote:

K I'll answer that for you. Like i've stated before, perfection is impossible. You won't be satisfied until we've been nerfed until you can kill us, and it's impossible to have a 50% chance to win in this game. Therefore, you cry for nerf until we're under you, then after u 100% us you would be silent. Then we would cry for nerf. Cycle?

I won't satisfied until we are closer to balance, though I do agree balance is impossible. I still believe that some balance is better than none.
Lol, do you even know what balance means? Balance is not 100% to win where you OP players want the 100% ratio. You guys will be whinning/complaining nonstop once they've somewhat nerfed Tach. Merc.
quote:
Balance is 50% to win. Which is...what's the word..impossible?

"As if"..in your previous post you stated that no one would back me up with the reasons that i had. Why do i WANT people to back me up? I'm speaking for those who are sick of being scammed unknowingly by the people who we have no power over. Obviously you WANT people by your side, so you'll feel bigger.
Watch the "balance" update. See if it stops people from crying op.

Lol. Why are you answering me on that now? You've finally find a fair-argument to throw at me? And like account scamming. Money scams are entirely your fault and not the Devs' fault.
I'll watch it and I'll be so happy when the OP-ness is gone while you will be crying for it to come back.

If i were OP, i would be a TactMerc.
But no i switched to the worst class. Why? Because i thought the classes were balanced.

Terrible...terrible assumption..

"I've finally found a fair argument to throw at you.."
That's called dodge. Answer, not describe.
Whose the one scamming?



mehmehmehmeh -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:30:47)

@ mehmehmehmeh: Ah, so player Feedback is false as well, I presume?
As you said, Staff testing will always make perfection.

Staff testing is terrible.

Think about it. Which is more effective..the voice of 50 or 5000

quote:

Perfection is impossible

And as Nova stated multiple times...

I stated it first ._.
I can use it as many time as i want.

And that's what everyone wants...perfection.
quote:

I won't satisfied until we are closer to balance, though I do agree balance is impossible. I still believe that some balance is better than none.

Of Course Perfection is impossible, but as much as possible won't hurt.

"Close to perfection" isn't as easy as saying it is. First, they're nerfing tact merc. What happened to the players who switched to tact merc? They're buffing blood mage and cyber hunter..what will become of them?

Who has net gain? Obviously the people who payed to be nerfed.



*Nova* -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:31:51)

quote:

What if the game was perfect?

Perfection is impossible as you have long stated but...
quote:

some balance is better than none.

quote:

No. Because only the staff tested it, it CAN'T be perfect. That's why the players are angry.

Tell me, are the players not playing with it as we speak? Or has the classes somehow have not been released? Playing with it and giving feedback IS 'player testing.'
quote:

Balance is 50% to win. Which is...what's the word..impossible?

100% to win is OP, so what's the word?... Unfair.
quote:

But no i switched to the worst class. Why? Because i thought the classes were balanced.

So now you think there was some kind of balance? I thought your balance was OP-ness. And again, nerfing means weaken not downrighting the class to UP-ness.
quote:

Whose the one scamming?

... The corporation...


quote:

I stated it first ._.
I can use it as many time as i want.


No, he's saying I stated this:

quote:

I won't satisfied until we are closer to balance, though I do agree balance is impossible. I still believe that some balance is better than none.

=====================================================

quote:

And that's what everyone wants...perfection.

Balance you mean
quote:

"Close to perfection" isn't as easy as saying it is.

That's why they have to keep on trying.
quote:

First, they're nerfing tact merc. What happened to the players who switched to tact merc? They're buffing blood mage and cyber hunter..what will become of them?

Buffing doesn't mean OP, Nerfing doesn't mean UP.



Ashari -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:35:51)

@mehmehmehmeh: You are asking us to foregoe balance just so you can enjoy being overpowered. Of course that's something that's not possible. While you might be enjoying your high win rate, other players have to deal with being underpowered in respect to Tactical Mercs. The goal of balance is to bring everyone on the same level. If the game's balance was left as it was from the start, we'd still have Tech Mages that could one-shot you with Super Charge from full health.

Testing helps improve the balance before it goes live, but it's very difficult to come close to perfect balance even with testing when so many new possibilities were introduced all at once.

Nerfing is NOT to scam you, or force you to switch classes. If you feel that you must be overpowered and you have to keep jumping to the most powerful class as imbalances pop up, then that is your choice. However what the staff is trying to do by balancing classes is prevent a situation where one class has such a big advantage over the other. Once all 6 classes fall into proper balance, you'll be able to be competitive with any one of them. You won't have to class switch because you feel your class is underwhelming.



*Nova* -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:37:58)

^
I'll leave this to you, I guess.

I'm done here.



mehmehmehmeh -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:45:33)

quote:

@mehmehmehmeh: You are asking use to foregoe balance just so you can enjoy being Overpowered. Of course that's something that's not possible. While you might be enjoying your high win rate, other players have to deal with being underpowered in respect to Tactical Mercs. The goal of balance is to bring everyone on the same level. If the game's balance was left as it was from the start, we'd still have Tech Mages that could one-shot you with Super Charge from full health.

Wrong. I want to stop you from nerfing Overpowered.
I'm not overpowered. Probably would lose a fight to anyone on this thread because of the terrible assumption that you people actually made a balanced class triangle.

Tell me. You honestly believe you can put everyone on the same level? Wow i've never thought of that before. Maybe because that's what you were trying to do since the start of beta, but it went the opposite direction.

Testing helps improve the balance before it goes live, but it's very to come close to perfect balance even with testing when so many new possibilities were introduced all at once.

Yes, that is the definition of testing. However, testing needs testers. The voice of 5000 would probably do better than the dev club. I'm guessing you put the word "hard" after the word very.

Nerfing is NOT to scam you, or force you to switch classes. If you feel that you must be overpowered and you have to keep jumping to the most powerful class as imbalances pop up, then that is your choice. However what the staff is trying to do by balancing classes is prevent a situation where one class has such a big advantage over the other. Once all 6 classes fall into proper balance, you'll be able to be competitive with any one of them. You won't have to class switch because you feel your class is underwhelming.



OBVIOUSLY that's not your intent? Just like how inflation wasn't an intent...but it happened anyways and people suffered. If i were to change class to tactical merc, why would i expect a nerf? It's your job as a tester to make sure that the nerfs don't arrive at the table. Trust me, you will NEVER have the classes at balance; no pvp game has a balanced system.



Death -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:46:39)

quote:

I stated it first ._.
I can use it as many time as i want.

You were suppose to read the quote...

I was saying that Nova has stated many times that Perfection is indeed impossible
But as much re-balance as possible will create a fairer game.



mehmehmehmeh -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:47:42)

quote:

quote:

What if the game was perfect?

Perfection is impossible as you have long stated but...
quote:

some balance is better than none.

quote:

No. Because only the staff tested it, it CAN'T be perfect. That's why the players are angry.

Tell me, are the players not playing with it as we speak? Or has the classes somehow have not been released? Playing with it and giving feedback IS 'player testing.'

My browser crashed while i was typing up response. Don't leave me here with....that..
quote:


quote:

quote:

I stated it first ._.
I can use it as many time as i want.

You were suppose to read the quote...

I was saying that Nova has stated many times that Perfection is indeed impossible
But as much re-balance as possible will create a fairer game.


And that re balance is to nerf the strongest link.
Then the strongest link becomes the weakest.
So we travel up the chain to the strongest again.
Cycle.



Death -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:50:37)

quote:

Wrong. I want to stop you from nerfing Overpowered.

Okay...
How can you see that OverPowered Classes are the way to go?
There is no competition in that.

You might as well become a Mod and One hit everyone.

@ mehmehmehmeh: Balancing isn't easy.
That cycle is just their Trial and Error.



mehmehmehmeh -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:52:10)

quote:

quote:

Wrong. I want to stop you from nerfing Overpowered.

Okay...
How can you see that OverPowered Classes are the way to go?
There is no competition in that.

You might as well become a Mod and One hit everyone.


If you pay for a gun, you aren't supposed to expect it to malfunction during the time of need.

@Above this trial and error causes...uproar.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:53:19)

@above
and if it does u ddnt pay enough and maybe u shldve tried gun insurance
and rly uproar lol? we will see when the update comes



mehmehmehmeh -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 18:55:53)

quote:

@above
and if it does u ddnt pay enough and maybe u shldve tried gun insurance
and rly uproar lol? we will see when the update comes


For the second time, this isn't a story. There is no "class change insurance" in ED.

If it's not an uproar, then all i see is peaceful people chatting about how fine tactical merc is.

When the update comes, people will STILL be crying about op-edness.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 19:03:13)

@Mehmehmeh: world of warcraft have a far higher budget than ED, hundreds more devs and game testers and they still nerf/buff
classes in many of their regular updates. now every single player is a paying customer but if you make a topic saying you were
robbed because your class got a nerf its ridiculed, and then closed. thats it. no matter how perfect they believe an update is, the
player base usually find a way to tear it to shreds and make it work in their favour, whether by exploiting an improvement on
their class or exploiting a nerf on their opponents class. we all know why most players picked tactical merc. they had a nice run.

theirs not a chance in hell that they are gonna be nerfed to the point of being unplayable though. i bet they arent even nerfed out
of the No1 spot and I dont even look at it as a nerf, just a balance correction. much like when they changed heal loopin



mehmehmehmeh -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 19:10:04)

quote:

@Mehmehmeh: world of warcraft have a far higher budget than ED, hundreds more devs and game testers and they still nerf/buff
classes in many of their regular updates. now every single player is a paying customer but if you make a topic saying you were
robbed because your class got a nerf its ridiculed, and then closed. thats it. no matter how perfect they believe an update is, the
player base usually find a way to tear it to shreds and make it work in their favour, whether by exploiting an improvement on
their class or exploiting a nerf on their opponents class. we all know why most players picked tactical merc. they had a nice run.

theirs not a chance in hell that they are gonna be nerfed to the point of being unplayable though. i bet they arent even nerfed out
of the No1 spot and I dont even look at it as a nerf, just a balance correction. much like when they changed heal loopin


Spend 6 dollars to switch to a class. They nerf it. Spend 6 dollars to switch back.

Gamma bot. Bought for 18dollars. nerfed.

Mage. Agility + field medic cooldown

Bounty hunter. 70% of skills have requirements.

It goes on and on..but they say it's "balance"

What if they didn't nerf anything?

Wouldn't it be a spectacle to see classes fight at max potential?



MrBones -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 20:50:12)

quote:

Wouldn't it be a spectacle to see classes fight at max potential?


I agree ^^



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 20:51:22)

one of the staff already explained, its considerably easier to "nerf" one class than to buff all classes and then have to buff all the NPCs to compensate.
i think too many look at the nerfs the wrong way around. they have set a level that all classes should be able to compete at, relative to their gear and
enhancements so any "nerf" or "buff" that brings a class back to that level is necessary, even if it means some players feel like they were cheated.

most of the players who use the forums know their are still major balance issues right across the board. we all have ideas that would improve this and
we all know that the devs take forever to deal with some of them. so why are people so set against the necessary changes ? just keep posting what
they are rather than trying to protect specific classes. I understand that heavy nerfs can limit creativity but who cares about creating a build when 1
class has a large advantage over most of the others ? thats actually a big reason why creative builds are stifled, not just so called nerfs by the devs.

their are smart players on both side of this argument, so blaming a players intelligence doesn't really cut it with me. either you want a more balanced
game that still allows creativity or you want an unbalanced game that suits you. now i understand most want the latter cause winning is everything.
I've been playing pvp games for many years, its just the way a lot of people are, I don't see anything wrong with it other than they are rarely honest.



Sageofpeace -> RE: =ED= Design Notes 7/6/2011 - Delta Performance Update (7/8/2011 21:32:19)

@Ashari

how can you expect us to thing the nerf is not just a scam when every time a class is nerf it become under-power and don;t say is not because it is, also not to be rude but you and the other mod have a rude way to say things to paying customer like"is your option to change class or nobody tell that you need to change class, etc..)

i don't understand what is the balance that you wanted to accomplish is clearly impossible to have a balance when we have 6 class with such different skill, every time you put a requirement on a class you literally kill some of the most fun builds. what happen when agility came player where force to make builds with 95 hp and under and when focus came at first it literally force everybody to have a 5 focus build so we could win some battle.

we expect things to be bad because it has been like thing since forever and is not a piece of cake for most of the player to earn 50k so of course they are going to expend 10$ to change class but what do we get nothing but rudeness for our support and unsatisfactory explanation.

why is it if more then half of the community is sad and sometime rudely outburst on you that you resource to plain explanation feeling attack, like nighwraith think he explain to in many occasion with those wear paragraph that in our eye are just sad sad indeed. have you seen how you treat customer feedback in the forum well expend sometime looking through the forum and check, because most of the time that the player feedback is too much for you to handle most of you by which i mean mod,afk as well as Administrator try to twist our words around and feel attack rudely closing the thread with a paragraph that's just let us saying WOW for real.

again if more them half of the community is mad is it our foul or yours, apparently is our foul it seems that way in most of your post and is not like the player go bla bla bla we try to give you idea but are all delete because we are not suppose to put in that section for real have you seem how many post are on the suggestion board or whatever from the people we wanted to hear it. is not like we wanted to just discuss our idea by our self we wanted to know what you think because if you don't care it serve no purpose for us to keep just making blank thread with idea that are not going anywhere.

NO MATTER HOW YOU SEE IT THIS FORUM THREAD IT PLAYER LIKE CRAP



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