The Rationale Behind Criticals (Full Version)

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frogbones -> The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 15:30:10)

Most of us would agree that the Crit system is entirely broken. Some of us believe that Crits happen too frequently, while some believe they ignore too much defense. And some, like me, believe both are true.

If most of us agree that there is *something* wrong with the Crit system, why exactly was it implemented? Here's what the Devs said: "Crits were introduced to give lower level players a chance against higher level players."

What? That's it? That's the only reason!? The most powerful aspect of the game (arguably) was introduced so a level 30 can beat a level 33? What kind of faulty logic is that?

What about when two level 33s fight each other? Or what about when a level 33 crits a level 29 player? Where's the logic in those two situations?

Crits need to go, or at least be nerfed. The rationality of their existence was based on a flawed concept from the beginning, not to mention one that doesn't account for 2/3 of the other "level matchup" scenarios.

Thoughts?



Rooster -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 15:38:34)

Crits are absolutely fine. You probably have a str build without support. Get more support and you concede fewer crits. Easy as that/



Master Volcon -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 15:39:11)

Critical hits are in every game. Granted they might not be as powerful nor happen as much they are an essential part of it.

Critical hits should be completely random however have a set chance of happening at 5%

This would eliminate most of the luck factor and keep people from spamming support in hopes of getting crits. The game would be based on how well of a player you are, not how much luck you have.



frogbones -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 15:41:48)

lol @ rooster: This isn't about builds. It's about the reason behind why crits were introduced.

Try to keep up, k?



PivotalDisorder -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 15:43:15)

INCREASED crit chance for lower levels was added. but it wasn't the sole reason for crits. almost all RPGs have crits.
support plays a part as does the base chance to crit. we all know you got owned by crits and had to come on forum to vent your anger.

happens every week.



frogbones -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 15:47:51)

Please give me a quote to back up your statement regarding other reasons for implementing crits. I'll wait here for you, patiently, while you try to find it.

**Looks around for a comfortable place to lie down**

This could take a while....



DeathGuard -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 15:53:53)

Crits take most of your hp, the half of it. It should be nerfed like you said frogbones, it gives spamming support user a little more advantage upon us, crits shouldn't be taken but nerf, since nonvariums wins by crits or deflections.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 15:55:27)

The situation is different now comparing to then at level 25+.

This game follows a ying yang theory. Tech/Dex, Health/Energy, Strength/Support.

With the research done by Xendran many moons ago, Support was the most powerful stat in the game.


I think a different formula should be implemented for Criticals because of the enhancements and stat boosting weapons of today's game.


Edited to eliminate incorrect information
~JZaanu





frogbones -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 16:09:49)

I know you go way back, JZ, but I'm *pretty* sure Nightwraith's first reason given was my quote of his above. If he or Titan made mention of Crits being a way to combat tanks, my recollection is that they said that after crits were introduced, which made that rationale an afterthought, and not one of the underlying reasons.

Could be wrong, though .... [:)]

But yeah, I agree. They definitely need to be fixed.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 16:16:09)

Frogbones, I must recant my thought about Criticals.

I had lost my train of thought. My explanation was about the introduction of Rage. So your quote is likely accurate. My apologies on the error I made.



Rooster -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 16:18:11)

@frogbones
I'm still pretty sure you have a strength build.
Also, even if the initial reason was as you stated, they also help against tanks and str spammers, so they are pretty useful. Unintended positive outcome.



frogbones -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 16:35:42)

Okay, Rooster. You got me. I currently have a STR build. 93 to be exact.

Now all my posts are irrelevant and biased, right?

(The fact that I've been around since the start of Beta and have used all types of builds (Dex, Tech, and Support) on a BH, CH, Merc, and Tac Merc proably means nothing, though.)

Right?

Anyway, back on topic. Please!






PumKing -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 18:40:01)

@frogbones, nice to see you, ur like zean zapple man, you don't post often, but always have something imporant to say.

---on topic---
I think you're absolutely right, crits need a major overhaul, quite frankly, I never understood why they are increased by suppport <--like seriously, what does that really mean anyway
If anything it should be dex, better dex, better chance to hit weak point (but that's a whole nuther can of worms that should never be opened, let alone thought about.... oops).

I know that support builds are pretty awsome, even without criting. I have faced a few support mages today---
( and as of late I've been working my hand on str build for my Bh, ooo, shocker, I'm biased as well, even though I too have gone through multiple classes and done many builds Merc, mage, tank builds, support, str, and have played since beta as well)
---and they creamed me, they have like a lvl 1 def shield that gave 20 something to there def, they deflected me a few times healed once or twice (twice happening usually with a bosster), and they never critted me once. So quite frankly, it is easy to see that it is a powerful build on it's own, even without criting, especially with the most power weps in the game being AUXs which get better with support is nothing to scoff at.

I agree, not only that, but that critting should be purely a luck thing that only has like a 5% chance of happening in a match period (on it's own that is, skills like lucky strike and bunker vbuster would be left alone).



Angels Holocaust -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 18:59:42)

Support ignores 75 percent of defenses which is more than rage. How the hell is that even legal in this game? A system that can literally win games, if your hit by a crit you need to at least score one on your opponent to have things equal up. The only thing support should influence is who goes first, that's mainly it.



frogbones -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 19:12:41)

Thanks for the kind words, PumKing, and thanks Angels for putting it only the way you can!

I really would like to push this issue hard, especially in these times of "rebalancing." Hopefully we can get the attention of a mod/tester, as well as some insight from the devs.

Cindy, any chance you could get the devs to reconsider Crits? [:)]






IsaiahtheMage -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/7/2011 23:44:00)

Criticals just need to eitheir have the chance lowered. Or lower the def/res % ignore. But not remove them. Crits give a little excitment because it puts a little random in the match but it should not be so powerful to change the tide of the entire battle. Like it is now. I mean what do you expect us to do against lvl 33 full var tanks?



jegaggin -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/8/2011 0:08:05)

i accept that now im going to build a tank without any support at all.. :)



Goony -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/8/2011 0:10:38)

Titan and Nightwraith have been alluding to the fact that the coding changes may make it easier to address some of the "impossible" to fix issues... Guess we will have to wait and see!

I'd still like to see criticals removed from support and a variable system based on respective health implemented. Maybe this could also be linked to Def/Res so it does actually address tanks...



DeathSpawn -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/8/2011 0:20:57)

Not much wrong with the crit system. Base chance 2% can't be lowered less than 1% and max 13% plus Azraels bane making strikes 18%.

Takes 7 support to increase your chance by 1%. If you choose not to place points in support then don't and take the random crits. By not placing points in support your able to up other things and have THOSE advantages over your opponent.

Everyone has there own style. If crits were removed EVERYTHING would change in the game. Talk about a ton of work and wasting time...

BTW was looking on wiki and couldn't find the post submitted on crit chances so had to go by memory. If something changed excuse my post and please let me know :)




Goony -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/8/2011 0:32:35)

quote:

Not much wrong with the crit system. Base chance 2% can't be lowered less than 1% and max 13%


That's what it says! I won't argue that that sounds good, but it's broken!

1 in 50 chance at even support, 1 in 8 chance with a support differential of 77 and a 1in 100 chance if you have 7 more support.

If there is nothing wrong with the critical system then why do they happen so often? I have plenty of proof and it's been published before!



endtime -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/8/2011 0:43:53)

Crits are fine since they are maxed at a low percentage and have a base of 1%. The real issue is blocks since blocks negate all damage and the chance of a block can go up to 55% (with Shadow Arts).



rej -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/8/2011 1:03:52)

the current crit chance is fine, its the deffense ignore that needs altering.

lowering the deffense ignore from 75% to 40% should cover it. (in other words, if your damage potential is 50, and your opponent has 50 potential deffense, rather than hitting 0, you hit 30 with a crit (20 base + the 10 damage added to all critical hits) )



Angels Holocaust -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/8/2011 1:09:17)

Crit's should ignore 10 percent of defenses because it happens way too often, if they were rare like 1 out of 100 matches than it should ignore 75 percent of defense. Crit's imo should happen, but not be the deciding factor in a game, where a person hit's you with a 44 at minimum. GG, anyone?



frosty123 -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/8/2011 1:19:21)

how bout on your 50th battle there is a 5 percent chance to crit. So every 50 matches 5%chance to crit.



frogbones -> RE: The Rationale Behind Criticals (8/8/2011 23:17:44)

Sounds like the concensus is that Crits should stay but be drastically altered to be less of a "game changer." What should the new percentage be?

Any mods/testers care to comment?



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