quote:

A recent conversation about Kalanyr's NPC Kalanyr, made by Kalanyr, for Kalanyr, piqued my interest in the capabilities of an Archmagi. Kalanyr told us that:

quote:

Unlike certain other mages my native ability to regenerate mana is limited to my natural capacity.

Now, this little fact caught my interest. Despite his limitations as a human like the rest of us, he's mastered devastating powers of both Nerfing and Buffing, and trained creatures that can slaughter us if we make even the smallest slip against them (see Sarah the Nerfkitten, and you'll know what I mean). It seems reasonable to assume that since the only difference between him and us right now (aside from the obvious KoO title, awesome weapon and the ability to summon missles of all things out of nowhere and reduce a giant down from monstrous to handlable) is his Archmagi abilities. Now ask yourself--if Kal is THAT awesome as an archmage, how strong could we become? Obviously, expecting us to get nerfing and buffing abilities would be [put as politely as possible] utter silliness. But even so, what are your expectations? Could we one day stand on even ground against titanic foes once beyond us with these powers? Or am I reading too far into this?

Discuss!

quote:

ORIGINAL : Kalanyr

Ahh we have a nomenclature problem. In current speech the term archmage refers to any extremely powerful magic user, this title stems from a group of powerful mages in the past who were known as the Order of ArchMages, who were destroyed in the same coming of The'Galin that made the Eternal eternal. Warlic is the an archmage of the first kind, Kalanyr and Beleqwaya are the last two members of that Order and it is the secrets of that order they will teach.

quote:

ORIGINAL : Kalanyr

Hmmm. You want to undertand the basics of our fields of research hmm ?

Very well.

To start with as you all know LORE (like many other worlds) is permeated with energy called mana, on LORE this energy has an elemental affinity for one or more of the 8 primary elements. A spell is a "template" or psychic construct for channeling this energy through to produce a desired effect as opposed to dumping elemental energy in your face.

A Mage studies the fundamentals of magic, learning both how to manipulate the mana of the 8 primary elements in a basic fashion, as well as learning some basic techniques for adjusting the form of a spell on the fly.
A Wizard progresses beyond this level by learning advanced techniques for manipulating mana attuned to the 8 primary elements, at this stage some Wizards choose to dedicate their study to one element of magic becoming a Pyromancer or Dynamancer etc.

An ArchMage knows that most of the above is a gross simplification.

Mana in its natural state has both no elemental affinity and all of them, it is the raw energy that seethes in the Deep Void, the stuff from which the world is made, it only acquires an elemental affinity because the structure through which LORE was created is based on the 8 primary elements. Knowing this it becomes possible to channel mana without the elemental taint, which allows for spells that have no elemental type instead being the raw energy of Creation and Uncreation that exists in the Void, manipulation of this energy is Beleqwaya's specialty, because mana naturally tends towards this form it is "simple" to channel this energy into walls of force for a powerful defence, dangerous bursts of power, making for quick and highly destructive attacks or a strange creature of pure mana or use the skills of manipulation acquired to destroy an enemies gathered mana, it is also possible to exploit the unstable nature of mana to make the surrounding mana revert to its natural state losing its elemental affinity althought this technique results in a great deal of raw energy it is uncontrollable and can harm the caster as much as much as the target.

Likewise an ArchMage knows that the templates for forming a spell aren't truly necessary they are merely a mental construct for channeling the power in a safe way, Kalanyr's focus is in this area, he believes that although the templates are technically unnecessary they are useful because the structured nature allows for fine-grained control over the spell allowing for increased mana efficiency if one has the knowledge to properly refine a template, as well as studying the astral construction of the spell templates to allow for on the fly changes to the element of a spell or to increase the power a spell has although such on the fly changes intefere with the fine construction of the template and cause an increase in the amount of mana needed to form a spell, this knowledge can also be used to channel energy to disrupt the templates through which opponents cast their spells reducing the power and accuracy of an enemies magic.

However before an ArchMage can learn such skills he or she or it must spend time as an initiate revising and perfecting the knowledge he has already acquired, as part of the initiation one of the first tasks undertaken is revising the Elemental Orb spell and updating it to something suiting the power of an ArchMage, to channel energy into a basic shield that defends against Melee and Ranged attacks, and to learn the mental excercises that allow them to call on the knowledge of previous ArchMages to bolster their insight and power.

And Beleqwaya and I have been discussing some things recently that we would like to put into practise, but it would take a truly advanced student to learn them and we'd need certain research materials gathered to put our theory into practise coincidentally the research materials we need could only be gathered by someone with the power of a truly advanced student so that should work out well for us everybody involved in the end.

quote:

ORIGINAL : Kalanyr

What a normal Mage or Wizard does is draw directly upon the elementally aligned mana that permeates LORE that is why most spell templates concern elemental energy since the system they are designed within assumes that mana is naturally elementally aligned.

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ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

The elemental magic of LORE is a manifestation of the Elemental Lords.

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ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

*Shrug* The Order is dead. Only its knowledge lives on, the way the title is used honours those who once held it and so I have no wish to reclaim the title exclusively for the use of ghosts, if the term passes into use as meaning a mage of great power, I am not displeased.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

Not all of my abilites spring from being an Archmage. Some of them spring from being a Knight. Others spring from being a Sidhe. Some of them from areas of study I have pursued as an Archmage that are not related to being an Archmage, I have after all been an Archmage since before the Eternal was the Eternal. Some of them spring from being much much older than you are and having a relatively short attention span. Still the human potential for growth never ceases to amaze, I see so many a fraction of my age who have in mere years surpassed me in areas I spent decades on, its almost like some cosmic force likes humans better than the rest of us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

OOC - Actually Warlic is the only magic user with an infinite supply of mana. Most of the others are like Kalanyr or worse off (like needing potions or to drain mana from others or rest or healing from Moglins to regain their Mana).

quote:

Warlic is not nearly old enough to have been a member of that Order and neither Beleqwaya or Kalanyr were in a position to take students until recently, so there have been no new Archmages in a very long time indeed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SmashBrawlerX2

Where does Xyphos stand in all this? Is he also an Archmage?(In the Warlic sense) If he is, ive often wondered why so powerful a mage was missing from the final battle with the devourer. IIRC he wasn't there when Beleqwuaya disincorporated himself

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ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

He's an acquaintance of Beleqwaya's. Yes. His specialty is not precisely appropriate for the magic that was being worked.

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ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

You are. Beleqwaya and I go back over 5000 years.

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ORIGINAL: Bob Almighty

Bob Almighty’s list of archmage skills deducted from the information given out:
Beleqwaya's will include (3 of which are available through AMR series):

--Defense buffs (at the sake of an MP cost)
--Burst offense spells (Possibly Void damage)
--Summoning guests formed from pure mana
--Destroying mana of spell casting creatures
--A difficult-to-control offensive spell, forcing a conversion of an element to mana, causing an output of energy so great it could potentially harm the caster as welll as the target.

Kal's would include:

--Element changing of a spell
--Highly advanced metamagics at the cost of increased mana cost (though likely not as ineffiecient as Mage's Empower)
--Effects which reduce an enemies ability to cast spells

It's interesting. But before the specification between the 2 schools is made, you will first of all learn:

--Applying basic elemental magics like the Elemental Orbs to a level appropriate for encounters of your level [Elemental Orbs with a MASSIVE buff]
--A basic mana-constructed shield [Defense Boost, likely not passive]
--Stat boosting skills [something like Ancestor Spirits from Berserker, with MP cost and immediate effect, no turn charging messing around]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

Given the state my home is currently in, no I don't. I miss what was but returning home wouldn't restore that, still in time things may change and I'll probably feel the yearning to return then.

And no, diety isn't the right word, and definitely not as the term is used on Lore or Caelestia.

quote:

The ArchMagi - History Revealed

written by:
Beleqwaya Melamin

Years ago, in a time beyond the memory of
mortals, there existed many different
forms of magic. However, time and trials
have withered that knowledge, and many
of these ancients forms were lost, with the
dead being the only ones that still keep
the secrets.

However, there are records of a very
powerful sect of Mages that distinguished
themselves above others in ancient times.

They roved the lands of Lore, seeking new
magical techniques, and teaching others
how to grasp and channel the flows of
energy around them.

Their continuous journeying around Lore
made them grow in popularity, especially
since many of the mages that the trained
grew into powerful mages themselves.

However, as they grew in fame, they took
a name to themselves and began to hide
their secrets further and further within
their own guild. They stopped teaching
young men and women how to channel
magic, and instead focused on learning
ancient and hidden arts and practices.

Eventually the outside world knew of only
two things: the name of the mystic group,
and that they wielded powers beyond
imagination.

This group called themselves the
ArchMagi, and they were determined to be
the most powerful group of Mages in
history.

After the ArchMagi turned their guild into
a secretive order, they realized that they
still had to increase their numbers by
training and introducing new mages into
the guild. Failure to do so would cause
their order to dwindle, and so hiding
themselves away forever would be folly.

However, they no longer wanted anyone
who was not an ArchMage to know of any
of their hidden arts. Instead, they began
teaching only the basics of magic crafts to
prospective mages, while offering any
talented mages a position in their guild.

So powerful and respected were the
ArchMagi, that kings and lords often
enlisted their aid. Records exist of large
sums of gold and artifacts, worth a small
kingdom in itself, being paid for the
services of the most powerful of the
ArchMagi.

The power was expensive to buy, but a
single ArchMage on the battlefield could
turn the tide of battle.

However, at some point, over a thousand
years ago, there exists an abrupt end to
any records of this group and of any
accounts of dealing with others as well.
At this time, there are mentions to some
great force, but no details are ever given.

It is believed that it was at this time that
''The'Galin the Devourer'' visited Lore, and
the devastation that was wrought brought
about a cataclysmic end to any powerful
groups that attempted to stop the
unstoppable.

Regardless of what happened, it appeared
great damage was done.

Centuries passed like seasons after the
destruction of Lore. Something had
cleaned the world of much of its life. But
not all of the life was wiped out, and some
of the ancient knowledge that was
physically recorded and stored in secured
places was recoverable.

Civilization had slowly been brought back
to reign, and cities had once again sprung
up. Guilds and groups arose to lead and
govern. And magic returned. Magic had
not died, but it had been weakened
considerably. Many mages had either fled
or died fighting.

The return of magic to its original strength
was championed by a few strong mages -
young in their years, but powerful. They
were not well known, in fact most had
never been heard of, but their strength
could not be denied.

The people of Lore referred to this type of
mage as an Archmage, since the
individuals showed the strength of the
group previously known by that name.

It was at this time in history that the name
ArchMage deviated from its original
meaning, and was replaced by the title
Archmage.

The ArchMagi had hidden their knowledge
very carefully and spread out. As more and
more years went by, their stories were not
told, and slowly the name they held was no
longer associated with them at all.

The ArchMagi were no more, and from the
ashes of their glory had risen nothing more
than a title. A title of power, knowledge,
and high respect no doubt; but a title
nonetheless.

Gone was the passing of secrets and spells.
Gone were the musings of the Masters.
Gone were the lessons of the acolytes.
The memory of the ArchMagi had vanished.

But while the ArchMagi had been forgotten,
to someone who looked hard, lore of them
could still be found - despite the difficulty.
Records of this group were mostly in some
long forgotten tomes buried deep within the
earth, dusty archives of the oldest libraries,
and with the elusive Drakel scholars. These
scholars were not particularly fond of giving
out information, and even if they did they
offered very little.

It was from these buried records and
accounts that the existence of the
ArchMagi, information of some of their
spells and structures, and the accounts of
devastation were learned.

One particularly interesting letter was
located. It was obviously hastily scrawled,
and found on a reading table in an
otherwise empty tomb that had been
sealed off.

The letter was unauthored, and undated,
although it appeared to be ancient.

''This vault, and all others, must be sealed,
although most accounts have already been
destroyed. Today, the ArchMagi of our
time will be finished. We could not save
ourselves or anyone else. But we did
discover a way to preserve the true
knowledge of our group, although the
chance of success is small. Small pieces of
information will be very spread out - but
only as much as can be left without
drawing any but the proper person. For
the ArchMagi to return, the long-lived
mages must seek and share both
knowledge and power together.''


While little is known about the artifacts that
are found around Lore from ancient times,
they are known to possess significant
power.

One of the ancient structures that the
ArchMagi crated were called ''Focus
Sites''.

Focus Sites appear to be the only
structures found in various places in Lore
that all have the exact same architecture,
and do not change in their construction or
decoration at all.

How to use these Focus Sites has not been
re-discovered as of yet, although other
information has been learned.

The Focus Sites were large stone
platforms with steps coming up the center
of one side. The top of the platform had
intricate runic designs engraved deeply
into them.

As well, the sites have been found to be
protected with a number of long standing
magical enchantments around them. The
enchantments are still very powerful, but due
to their age they can eventually be
bypassed by a mage of enough skill.

The purpose of the sites is simple. The
platforms channel natural convergences of
magical energy, and were able to focus this
flow into one spot - allowing the user to
draw more power for highly complicated
spells, and to sustain them longer.

The prospect of finding the
knowledge of such a powerful group
is a goal often considered
unattainable by all but the most
dedicated scholars, despite the fact
that the discovery of any of their
wisdom would be a discovery of
monumental proportions.

Maybe the secrets of these times are
lost for good, or maybe luck may aid
in finding it. Whatever happens,
should any of their hidden spells,
tomes, or techniques to operate their
devices be learned, it will be a
discovery of unseen magnitude that
will be talked about for ages to come

quote:

[12:53] Kal_Sleep: And I can call on the power of The'Galin , that doesn't mean he'll grant me *all* of it.
[12:54] Kal_Sleep: oh crap
[12:54] Kal_Sleep: I didn't mean to say that
[12:55] Aelthai: Kal ... yeah. Careful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

Remember that because I can call does not mean that I will or that you are obligated to answer especially given that I am not even a communicant and there was one present there. And since I had not meant to reveal that at all I will say no more on the topic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

Falerin wasn't always a deity. I don't know the whole story, but he was once a human on the world of Caelestia that would have preferred to be an elf and somehow persuaded a deity to change him into one. It was afterward that the war began that lead to the ascension of several beings including Falerin. He became an elf before he became a god.

The only example I know of in AE of a character that has had their race magically or divinely changed (other than certain changelings who can change their genetics at will) happens to be Falerin. He does not have Gray Elf as a sub-race. He IS a full blooded gray elf.

quote:

Demons:

I seem to be one of the few that have researched this, even among my team members. It just wasn't thought about much in the past I guess. In combing through everything in AQ and the other games that have been called "demons," I have found that in all cases at least one of two definitions apply consistently.

The first and simplest is a native of one of the surrounding planes of Lore other than the material world itself. This would include the elemental realms, Heck, and perhaps even the Ethereal Realm. The greatest example of this are the Brilhado. Their race originated in the elemental realm of Light.

The second definition gets a little complicated. It's easiest to point out the examples first. There's the fire demons, ice demons, forest demons, and the demon spectre that I can remember off the top of my head. Except for the Demon Spectre, all those examples's descriptions state that they are creatures that have been somehow corrupted and transformed into monsters with strong negative feelings being involved. The fire and ice demons' descriptions specifically states an elemental spirit caused the transformation. Looking through these "transformed demons" and fitting descriptions together however I could, I found that they all seemed to fit when considering the fire and ice demon descriptions as nearly complete and the others as missing information. Basically elemental spirits, most likely demons of the first variety themselves, find a host with a vulnerable mind, posses the host, and then transform the body to something more suitable for their purposes. I guess in the simplest way you could say the second variety of demon is a type of the first that are body snatchers.

The first kind is extremely broad in definition. What this seems to mean is that demons as a whole are not one race, nor even one species. What gives them the designation of demon boils down to the location of origin for whatever kind of being they are. There's not much more to it than that.
~ Genoclysm

quote:

Oh and by the way I will accept but one definition for violation of free will.

The complete obliteration of volition.

If you can still choose no matter what the negative consequences you are threatened with you have free will. End of story.

quote:

There exist puppet universes created solely for the aggrandizement of their deity with no sort of other pupose. In such universes Free Will is very much nonexistant. Such universes tend to implode in the very opposite case. The introduction of free will tends to be rather destructive to their order in the long run and accelerates the decay into entropy. Free Will is not therefore a neccesary part of creation. A creator ultimately is the final arbiter of their creation it is more or less simple.

quote:

Viridium is an energy in subspace. The Network uses subwarp and transwarp drives to travel the universes creating armies for the devourer. When Viridum comes into contact with oxygen it turns to a metal like substance, it also becomes toxic to those who have come into contact with pure energy Viridium. Not every Network agent is hurt by this metal of course. Examples of some characters in the AE universe who would actually be hurt badly if cut with a Viridium blade who are NOT Network members are the Huntress and Atlas Maxwell.

quote:

Even in so far as the cold is not thamaturgical and nature your assessment is more or less correct. The cold is used to magnify mental processes. Magnifying competitive processes can inhibit existing ones. However the one thing the cold does not actually do is abrogate free will. Not ever.

quote:

I incidentally also agree with you about the sinful bit. Lore has no concept of sinful the way that some Terran religions do. Creation is however corruptible by nature and free will will always corrupt. The question is not a striving for total purity. It is a striving for NET purity overall.

quote:

The violation of free will in a world that has free will as a basic structural element from without unravels the very fabric of the world. Free will is so intrinsic to the nature of the universe that its alteration will destroy the universe.

quote:

Epsilon was created from the blood and bones of the Cor-Dem.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalanyr
By the way no you haven't faced Death, you've faced The Reaper, which is to Death as Aquaas is the Water Lord, a mere projection into the realms of mortality to accomplish some goal (in this case the harvesting of souls). Death is a personification of a force it exists in a realm outside of mortality (The Void) the Reaper is its method to reach out and meddle where it deems it needs too. Even if Death could stop The'Galin why would it ? If its the personification of the death that even gods may die The'Galin is absolutely no threat to it (there'd be almost nothing thats a threat to a being of that magnitude), it has no reason to fear him and hence no reason to interfered with another being carrying out its role in the cosmic play, and if its merely the personification of mortal death The'Galin dwarfs its power by orders of magnitude. Either way Death ain't helping you.

I seriously question that Kal. In fact I have very real reason to question that. Not only about the comparative level of Death but also about how he will interact with players. It is quite possible to have a universe where death does not exist. Death is an introduced force. If any force is primal it is Uncreation as death is merely the uncreation of life. Whereas uncreation can also uncreate matter, essence, existance, even time.

quote:

Dragonspawn? The Drakel are Dracomamalian. They are not Dragon "spawn" though they do share common ancestors with the dragons. They also share common ancestors with the Humans, Elves and Orcs.

quote:

The Amilani and the Silari are both Drakel Species. They merge with the primitive forest Drakel to become the Drakel of today. As for the Amilani being ancestors to the Aquatic elves this is likely metaphorical in the same way that the description of them being Giant Fish was metaphorical. It refers to the Drakel influence on their development.

quote:

The Elani (Elves) are actually a much younger race then the Drakel. Though compared to the humans they are an ancient Race. They were NOT by all apperances alive during the last coming of the Devourer however.

quote:

[19:43] <Elryn> I was not aware that Ryuuseihad been on Terra.
[19:43] <~Damsel> O_o
[19:43] <&Falerin> Oh yes... he lived there for most of his life
[19:44] <Elryn> He came there after VespiriaI resume?
[19:44] <~Damsel> hey if Shay can split thatmany times, I'm sure Ryuusei could pull it off once
[19:45] <&Falerin> The evidence that heactually ever resided on his home planet issomewhat scant actually
[19:45] <Elryn> Oh?
[19:45] <Elryn> Hmmm...
[19:45] <&Falerin> as near as can be toldRyuusei was raised on terra by the Twains
.
.
.
[19:54] <Elryn> But mainly, that what you said about Ryuusei.
[19:54] <&Falerin> Oh certainly thats readily said numerous places
[19:54] <&Falerin> including in game really

quote:

Kalanyr

Most Wizards and Mages don't manipulate raw mana, they manipulate mana that has been imbued with elemental energy *before* they manipulate it, most of the mana that is found on Lore is imbued with elemental energy (often times more than 1) from the action of Creation itself.

Manipulating Void energy is hard (though not impossible, Beleqwaya's magical area of focus is the manipulaton of mana particularly in its raw form), and a simple spell like Fireball does not use Void energy to Create Fire. Finding it isn't precisely easy either considering that when it interacts with Created things it tends to react with them in ways that covert a chunk of both what they reacted with and itself into something else.

Kalanyr -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 12:22:05)

Harm is energy without elemental alignment. Its usually a property of things that do not come from Lore, that aren't from a world with a compatible elemental structure (eg if a sword was aligned with Night energy and it came to Lore it would most likely end up as Darkness), and that don't obviously fall into a Lorian classification ( a sword of fire is a Fire weapon, a stone club is an earth weapon)*. Some specifically focused Lorian items deal harm damage by artificially inducing an "elemental" alignment with something outside of the element structure, eg becoming Anti-Zard element. Some Poisons deal harm damage by causing an internal breakdown in tissue rather than elemental interactions, these poisons actually occur relatively rarely in nature, but see fairly common use by sentients since poisons are generally only used when normal tactics prove ineffective.

Void energy is more complicated, its the raw stuff from which all things spring, its both elementally aligned to all elements, hostile to all elements, and unassociated with elements. Raw mana is void energy which is why it does void damage. Being able to make use of void damage safely usually implies some kind of exceptional power or careful focus (many trigger weapons make use of void damage safely by creating a reaction with something that essentially generates very small amounts of void energy). Manasplosion is a very unsafe use of Void energy, failing or badly damaging the caster if not carefully managed. Archmage Research is a more refined version which causes a smaller and more controlled amount of damage to the caster (it also doesn't consume all the mana available to the caster).

The reason why things that are resistant to Void are usually resistant to Harm is because things that are resistant to Void are usually resistant to everything to some extent (ie the resistant to Void and Harm both flow from some kind of generic resistance property), while there are exceptions it should be noted that most such creatures are usually strangely related to Lore's cosmology in their own right , Void Dragons are descended from Lorians dragons who natural possess high elemental affinity attuning to Void energy instead, which has had several strange effects on their physiology and their psychology.

*There are a few items and beings from other worlds that possess such exceptional power that would up being aligned to Void rather than Harm, but they are very very rare.

[Also from an meta perspective some things are currently immune to or heavily resistant to void and harm simply because we don't want you using flat %ile draining things which have a bajillion HP and are Level >You, strangely we feel that being really powerful shouldn't be a disadvantage to a monster. Several such creatures will lose their resistances once we've dealt with %ile effects (no we don't plan on killing all of them some of them will end up similar to Assassin's Creed or the Guardian Dragon where the %ile damage done is limited by a level comparison).

Very few things will resist Void (Void Dragons are pretty much the only thing I can think of off hand), but similarly there will be very few sources of Void damage, mainly from triggers on creatures that have a wide variety of elemental variants or from things that harm the user. More than that will resist Harm, although usually to a lesser extent than they resist elemental damage. ]


Jakau Ryuu -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 12:57:05)

@Kal: Now you've got me wondering something...
You said raw mana is void energy. Does that mean that, in theory, a conduit could be created between a particularly powerful mage's mana supply and the Void itself, allowing for a constant influx of mana? Granted, that would likely be extremely risky to the mage doing so, were it an option, but would it actually be possible?




________________________________________

Kalanyr -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 13:18:29)

Theoretically possible. On the other hand I'm unaware of a safe place to watch that from, so I'd really rather no one tried it.

Even in theory it probably wouldn't be good for the mage in question though, even the small controlled amount of raw mana generated and used in Archmage Research causes damage to the caster, dumping the entire void worth of magical energy into a mage's mana supply carries the further risks of doing the equivalent of dropping the Elemental Plane of Water into a 20 Litre tank.




________________________________________

Mordred -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 13:20:21)

So, doing such a thing would be worse than being hit with a sponge soaked in nitroglycerin?

So, how can we go from the Void to Uncreation? What defines Uncreation?




________________________________________

Kalanyr -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 13:31:21)

The same way you go from Void to Creation. Which in the case of most beings is not at all. It takes immense power to safely use Void energy as a weapon, using it directly for creation or uncreation is harder still.

I don't think I can answer the second part, defining Uncreation without reference to Creation is difficult, and describing it with reference to Creation is inherently circular. This is probably a poor explanation but Creation is making something from Void energy, Uncreation is returning the thing to Void energy. Even thats a poor version of a poor explanation since when you create something you also create its potential for interacting with other things (a potential for having a history if you will), when you Uncreate something you remove the thing and that potential (so the thing never existed). My apologies for the poor explanation.




________________________________________

Mordred -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 13:34:11)

It's not that bad. In fact, it was quite enlightening, if simple. It explains how The'Galin/Omega works about. It might have been explained earlier, and I might have missed it, but it gives me a more solid idea of how one could go about Uncreating.




________________________________________

ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 13:50:23)

But surely that isn't entirely accurate? There are different degrees of Uncreation, as Falerin Ardendor has said; there is the mere destruction of an object at one end and the complete eradication and removing the object and its potential at the other. How does this fit in? Merely returning part of the object's structure to the Void?

And, to address the original question, are there "elements" of Uncreation? And HOW is it that you cannot answer the second part? You are a Knight of Order! We contemplated going to you instead of Ryuusei in the Bizarre Flecks madness. :P




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Jakau Ryuu -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 14:01:28)

There's also the fact that Absolix was apparently Uncreated into existence - which rather goes against Uncreation's "erasing" effect, doesn't it? Your explanation covered the main portion of Uncreation, while explaining where exactly the Created matter goes... but there's clearly a "creating" aspect to Uncreation, just as there is a "destruction" aspect of Creation.

In regards to the "Void conduit" response - I figured as much. That would get messy, even if the mage attempting it managed to set specific conditions and limits on the conduit, such as refilling only on draining their natural mana reserves and only regenerating a certain amount - I imagine gaining mana in any way other than accelerated, natural regeneration (which I suspect is the process induced by both mana potions and moglin healing magic) would be, at the very least, excruciatingly painful.




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Kalanyr -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 14:17:17)

I sad it was a probably poor explanation. And yes that extension to the explanation is as correct as the explanation was.

And to address the original question, the best answer would be it depends on how you look at things, in one sense there are no elements of Uncreation (there isn't unFire), in another every element of Creation is equally an element of Uncreation, you Uncreate Fire as much as you Create it.

It's difficult to explain multi variable calculus to someone who only has the mathematical knowledge of a 5th grader. It doesn't help that even though I've studied the metaphysics of Lore on and of for several millennia that they do not come naturally to me. So add to that the problem of a native English Speaker, trying to teach the above to a Spanish person in Spanish. Also Uncreation and Creation have not been something that I've made a formal study of , my experience with such has usually been more practical in nature.




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Kalanyr -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 14:22:39)

It is worth noting that even Ryuusei considered Absolix as an experiment (if you can use creation to "destroy" things (see Fireball) then why can't you use Uncreation to uncreate the absence of something? ), and he's much more studied in Uncreation than I am. My explanation is certainly neither perfect nor complete.




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Jakau Ryuu -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 14:27:01)

No, the explanation worked quite well for the part of Uncreation it was describing. I'd actually been wondering where the matter went when Uncreated - now I know.

The only problem is that Uncreation itself seems to be a mystery for anyone not either a deity (or in Ryuusei's case, served as a vessel for the God of Uncreation, whilst serving him for a long time beforehand), or themselves born of it. And there's certainly no way we're getting definitive answers on Uncreation from Ryuusei - he's just as cryptic as Fal is.




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Lectrix -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/12/2010 15:03:28)

Simple: They absorb Elements instead of Creating them, and in the process, they produce the opposite Element. If you absorbed all the heat from something, it would turn to Ice; if you removed the Darkness from something, you would end up with Light.

Hmmm... my theory doesn't seem to work with Water/Energy or Earth/Wind though [8|]




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RedEyedDrake -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/13/2010 0:31:19)

Thank you for providing an explanation for how harm interacts with everything else, Kalanyr. You also brought up the point that beings that resist void also resist many other things and that beings come into being by having void undergo creation. Those two statements seem to support eachother. If they resist what "everything else" came from then it's reasonable to assume that they whould resist "everything else" aswell. However, there is evidence against the statement that beings come into beings by having void undergo creation. Cartwright stated that beings come into being by having primordial matter undergo creation. He also stated that Absolix came into being by having raw chaos undergo uncreation. Seeing as how Absolix ended up classified as void-powered whouldn't that mean that the void is actually the above mentioned raw chaos rather then the primordial matter? Also, all beings that come into existence in the void are created from the same raw chaos Absolix came from, right?
Also, you stated that every element of creation is equally an element of creation. But aren't the eight elements all merely shapes of the power of creation while the void is the power of uncreation? I whouldn't call the eight elements and the void compatible like that.




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Kalanyr -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/13/2010 7:00:40)

[ I admit to being confused by your post. To the best of my knowledge primordial matter = raw chaos = void energy. ]




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/13/2010 7:09:08)

Then The Deep is a reservoir of Void Energy and Void Elementals?




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Falerin -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/13/2010 7:23:09)

The Deep was described as a reservoir of primordial creation left over from the creation of Lore. That would suggest that it is in fact a rather chaotic mix of all sorts of energies likely both elemental and not including potentially Void as that is the raw stuff of the universe. However it is aligned for the purpose of creation so it is not pure void.




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RedEyedDrake -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/13/2010 10:30:05)

Kalanyr, if I may presnt you with a quote from "Absolix Rising":

???: Your plan will fail. Absolix was not designed to be your plaything. My son is more than that. He is uncreation perfected, creation not from the primal matter, but from very chaos itself.

So yeah, I admit I didn't remeber the exact terms but this makes it quite clear that primal matter and raw chaos are not the same. Wich brings up the question of wich one of those two is the void. There is evidence for both, as stated in my previous post. Said evidence for the former hypothesis (void=matter) comes from your deduction about void beings resisting many thing and by extention harm because they resist void while evidence for the latter hypothesis (void=chaos) comes from Absolix being a void creature while also being born from the above mentioned chaos.




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Kalanyr -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/13/2010 11:11:01)

[ I'll have to check with others (unless Fal wants to clear the matter up) but the only thing I can think of is that the primal matter thus referred to is the stuff now in the Deep (and in almost everything on Lore) which was used in the creation of Lore (and thus most Lorian beings came from that), and that Absolix is uncreated directly from Void energy/raw chaos. ]




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RedEyedDrake -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/13/2010 11:12:40)

Very well then. Thank you for your time, Kalanyr.




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Falerin -> RE: Elements of Uncreation (12/13/2010 11:19:50)

Kalanyr's understanding is as far as I know correct.

quote:

Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 9:54:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dwelling Dragonlord

@Mordred: Yeah, I blame Falerin personally. He said that we only saved Beleqwaya, because his wife would not have it that he passed away. We did not know that Maxwell got stuck in the Void, but well ... Falerin got omniscience! He should've known and told us, so we could've prevented this from happening.


Omniscience is not a property of Falerin nor of any Caelestian or Lorian deities. Omniscience negates free will.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 9:55:52)

The funny thing is, Loco had "Omniscience" as one of his powers.




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:00:36)

I can claim I have ultra toasted salt bagel powers.... but that claim by itself is not enough to actually open a deli.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:01:27)

It wasn't a claim. During the quest,
quote:

You have contained the Power of Omniscience!


Since the game itself told us...

Eh, whatever. We've misunderstood the game before.




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:01:48)

@Falerin: Thing is, Loco didn't claim anything. ^See above.^




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:09:26)

Ah that. Well things are relative. Limited omniscience is a property of many or most deities. True full omniscience however means you already know the outcome of every event that has happened and that will happen. If you already know all things no one can act in a manner contrary to that knowledge. That someone knows the outcome means you are forced to act in accordance with their knowledge. You can never truthfully be a free agent.
spoiler:

Tholeon Webb is a long enemy of Eldron in particular and of Falerin secondarily. He was one of the causative agents of the Farpoint's directives against chronomancy. During ... well the time frame is gray.... At some point in Caelestian History Webb appeared in Caelestia and familiarized himself with its mechanics. He then reappeared in the distant caelestian past and manipulated events and the heroes of Caelestia into altering the fabric of Caelestian time, the changed events prevented Eldron's mortal family from being formed as per normal and in effect both removed Eldron from his role and altered the events leading to one of the major gods wars, causing several deities changing portfolios and Falerin never leaving his old portfolio to become god of evil. This lead to a Caelestian future that was entirely post apocalyptic end; with most sentient beings dead and long gone. The heroes upon seeing this venture back into the past to undo the damage. Webb was defeated and history sent back on its prior course but in any case Dhows caused (and always had caused) several major events in the history of Caelestia. He is a pivotal figure. His arrival in fact is among the events that caused the Caelestian powers to pay more attention to their borders and start looking outward.

Eventually an abridged version of Dhows' Caelestian involvement will be placed in game in some form.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:11:44)

Besides, I would expect Falerin's ability to perceive to be limited on Lore...




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:15:47)

So Loco has limited omniscience like us?




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:24:24)

spoiler:

So Tholeon did a Tirlerion... The names are so similar. Tholeon/Therlion/Tirlerion/Telierion/Taleron...

If Webb's history will be in-game, will Eldron's, eventually? I think this is the second time I'm asking you, but I really want to see what Aslyn meant and how Mythron became Creator of Elves...


And the question is still "Is Dhows a deity or not?"




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xehanort -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:26:58)

Personally i take omniscience to mean that you know all that is happening in the present, AKA that if someone does something you will automatically know about it only moments after they do it.

Simply put, if you do something, the omniscient person WILL know about.
However, the future is out of their grasp, they only know everything that is happening NOW.

Say that you murder someone, even if the omniscient guy is halfways across the galaxy when it happens he will still know almost instantly that you just killed someone in cold blood, but he did not know you were going to do it before it happened.

That's how i perceive it anyway.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:28:18)

Absolute "omniscience" would be knowing everything. Knowing "everything" MEANS everything, including the future, past, the never-will-be's, the might-have-been's-- Everything.




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:30:52)

Define deity within strict parameters, and I might be able to answer; but if someone defined differently I may not be able to answer or the answer may completely reverse. In Caelestian, terms no. He has followers and emulators but not worshipers and his power is not at all related to such.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:33:54)

"Reverse." Teehee.

Strict parameters:

Hmm. This is a hard one.

Strict parameters (attempt two): Dhe Ehm, Extra Greater Power, Greater Power, Intermediate Power, Lesser Power, Demipower, Avatar/Semidemipower.

Is Dhows one of these?

Strict parameters (attempt three): Of the same class as Falerin, Lorithia, the Elemental Lords, etc.

Also... I believe you said that the HoC and the Epsilon were unrelated, but just for confirmation:

Is there a link between the Auric Key/Engine of Creation and the Alpha or Epsilon?




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xehanort -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:35:11)

Absolute omniscience yes, that is true.

Limited omniscience could very well mean exactly what i described though.


...Defining what a Deity is is easier said than done, what is the difference between a god and a mortal who just has enough power to match an actual god?
Where is the line between Deity and Really Flipping Powerful Mortal?
I for one would like to know where the line between the two goes.


Also, i think Semi-demipower is supposed to be Quasi-Deity...




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:36:25)

Hence we have the aforementioned labels for deities.




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:39:39)

In so far as it can be said that there is an absolute ceiling to the power a mortal being can have a demipower breaks that ceiling and a deity demolishes it. Many deities gain power from their worship. This is not universal but it is part of the definition that is central to a the system.


Orodalf the rankings you give are not terribly relevant as they are positional. To my knowledge no pantheon recognizes Dhows as a member.

Attempt 3 is meaningless. What defines the similarities between the listed entities can either be membership in a pantheon, level of power, level of authority, level of recognition, mutual agreement, or any combination of these.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:42:41)

Hmm. I thought as such.

Auric Key/Engine, though?

So the Caelestian definition is a being who gains power by worship and is officially recognized by the pantheon?




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:45:46)

Er... more or less. Foreign deities are a more complicated matter. Foreign detiies are recognized by their power and the recognition of their own pantheon if Caelestia recognizes that pantheon as valid (i.e. has diplomatic relations). Where no diplomatic relations or recognition of the beings claim exist a being that might from every other sign appear to be a deity will to the Caelestian pantheon be an usurper not a deity.

The references to "Hands" of Creation are not accidental but the relationship is not necessarily linear or straight forward. No further comment on the Engine of Creation will be forthcoming.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:49:02)

You're still dodging Auric Key/Engine of Creation. Hmm. We have yet to find out as to what's going to happen to said Engine...

So a being from within Caelestia that usurps a deity isn't a usurper (e.g., Falerin)?

What is the Lorian definition of a deity? Is it the same as the Caelestian one, albeit a little less strict in terms of usurping?

And is Dhows correct in believing that, without the Avatars' hold on Lore, the elemental boundaries will break?




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Phrixus -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:49:14)

Can anyone post or PM me an image of the Ghost knight House guard or perhaps just a Ghost Knight from the quest??

I'd be very grateful.

Edit: nevermind, its been added.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:50:20)

@Phrixus: http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6141/ghostknight.png

@Fal: Also, was the Lady in the Special Mission Lolth? (Just for confirmation purposes)

If we were to define a deity as something that exists outside of time, Dhows would pass... and It also passes as having a specific "portfolio" as the Master of the Shadowscythe. Hmph.




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:52:32)

The Avatars are Primal Representatives and avatars of the Elemental Lords. Dhows likely means that once they are killed off the lords have no choice but to respond... likely by direct manifestation, possibly of a direct Avatar possibly more... in either case such a thing is most likely to be destructive. It is however the elemental boundary collapse that he most intends to use. That is not directly caused by the avatar falling the avatars fall is just an agent of and part of the process. Falerin's reverse entities already demonstrate such things in action.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArchMagus Orodalf

So a being from within Caelestia that usurps a deity isn't a usurper


Falerin's portfolio is not the same... Dralen Ath was never ascended and the one Dralen Ath betrayed, and who Falerin eventually turned out of Caelestia too was not a Caelestian deity originally but a locally accepted and tolerated foreign interloper.

That said... even in simpler cases of usurping power and taking a portfolio directly... recognition is the key....

If accepted and victorious an usurper very quickly becomes a deity. If not... not.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 10:55:04)

Then the boundary collapse is caused by the direct manifestation? I thought you said such a happening would be able to be contained if all Eight were to manifest at once?

Define "Primal Representative."

"Not." Heheh. It works like it does here on our more Prime Terra, then. Official recognition is what clinches it.




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War- Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part XIX (4/20/2011 11:00:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArchMagus Orodalf

Then the boundary collapse is caused by the direct manifestation? I thought you said such a happening would be able to be contained if all Eight were to manifest at once?

Define "Primal Representative."


Theoretically in that instance such "MIGHT" be contained as they self balance. Emphasis is on simultaneously, theoretically, and might. How likely that simultaneous manifestation is or whether it would even be possible to orchestrate remains a very open question.

Primal Representative - 1) any form, object, being, device, sample or representation of a deities power directly and identifiably evident in the world; 2) (syn) Avatar

quote:

ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:01:53)

WOWOWOWOW Dhows tagged my thread. Creepy as anything, Fal.

@Fal: Am I correct in believing that Tjeli has been preserved in a pre-Reset state?




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Falerin -> RE: =AQ= Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:04:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedEyedDrake

So Edward becoming an avatar of Death had nothing to do with him being a child of Balius?


Of course it has something to do with him being a Child of Balius. That is how it got close to and selected Edward. It does however have nothing to do with Genetics. Same with it going from Edward to Cenara.




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Mordred -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:05:08)

@DD: Because Tumultu is not a hive-mind. He's not just physically separate from what he willingly and yet unknowingly gave up. He's spiritually and mentally separate from the other half of him. For all purposes, the other half has become a being of its own.




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Jamiie -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:05:37)

My heads hurting trying to keep up with reading this! Let alone posting my own questions. 0.o




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: =AQ= Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:05:49)

You mean specifically in Death's case that the Avatar's choices had nothing to do with genetics, yes? The Avatar does get passed, though, if the father/mother is Avatar at the time of conception/birth?




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The Balancer -> RE: =AQ= Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:08:02)

what! no rewards besides house items! what kinda crap is this!




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Rhowena -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:08:12)

Hmm.. if Dhows is capable of imitating the form of others, and apparently of doing decent impression, should we be getting paranoid?

There's also a bit of dialogue from Flecks I I've been wondering about... Could this become relevant to present events, or should I look elsewhere for things to nitpick?
quote:

Diviara: Don't mention it. Amilara and I know this Lore well enough. It was where my wife... where she...
Cartwright: ...Where she died. Yes, I remember. The Network found it easy to hide here, given the quantity of undead who reside here already.




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:10:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArchMagus Orodalf

WOWOWOWOW Dhows tagged my thread. Creepy as anything, Fal.

@Fal: Am I correct in believing that Tjeli has been preserved in a pre-Reset state?


Tis a question without any real or adequate answer. The capital of Tjeli remains as it was at the time of its casting into the sea. The rest of it is an ice wasteland. Events described happened more than 5000 years ago... which would antedate Mechquest but you will find no Tjeli on the Lore in MQ I suspect. How do you describe chronological events that occurred before a fixed point that itself altered its own past.... which is what the reset did? It is impossible to date them relative to an event that occured in their own future.. or is that did not occur.... but the future is not fixed...


@Rhowena: Oh its definitely relevant. It was a foreshadowing... but me thinks you can find even more compelling presages in Cartwright and Diviara's statement... very close to there... about sources of corruption being trapped.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArchMagus Orodalf

You mean specifically in Death's case that the Avatar's choices had nothing to do with genetics, yes? The Avatar does get passed, though, if the father/mother is Avatar at the time of conception/birth?





And the Avatar chose to go. Avatar can chose their host. They can certain chose whether or not to forsake them. It is a fact that other than truth there is no known fragmented insane Avatar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Balancer

what! no rewards besides house items! what kinda crap is this!



The cost of failure.




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megakyle777 -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:18:33)

quote:

Hmm.. if Dhows is capable of imitating the form of others, and apparently of doing decent impression, should we be getting paranoid?


Yes. Yes we should. Hopefully the inevitable bird puns will help clue us in though.[:D]

Unless... He's making the bird puns to make us think exactly that?[X(]




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Rhowena -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:18:35)

Mysterious dark presence = Dhows, yes. Would I be correct in guessing that it was specifically a trapped fragment that was absorbed by Dhows Prime at the end of Mostly Harmful?




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:21:20)

Would you like scones or some other pastry Rhowena my dear?




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RedEyedDrake -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:22:07)

.......*does the evil monkey point at Fal's pic*




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Mordred -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:22:31)

... Oh, may the Lords help us... We're sconed. :P Yes, that was an atrocious pun.




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:23:35)

@Falerin: How do the other Annunaki perceive Truth?

@megakyle777: Hey, you've missed it.




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Falerin -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:24:07)

I am sorry the pastry reference may be lost on the less initiated. I mean to say you are 100 percent spot on in your assessment on all counts.

@DD

As entirely insane... and somewhat dangerous.




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majesticstar3800 -> RE: Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:24:25)

Dhows has a forum?
Cool.




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Falerin -> RE: =AQ= Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:26:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mordred

@DD: Because Tumultu is not a hive-mind. He's not just physically separate from what he willingly and yet unknowingly gave up. He's spiritually and mentally separate from the other half of him. For all purposes, the other half has become a being of its own.


Making Tumultu and his other half more like Falerin and Ardendor than like Dhows.




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Mordred -> RE: =AQ= Bizarre Flecks Mega War - Mostly Harmful Conclusion! Part X (4/20/2011 15:27:38)

@Falerin(Dhows?): That would be the case with my L&L... Although, I've had the idea before Dhows(you?) killed you(Falerin?).

This conversation could get... difficult... Although, I have no idea why Mordred Tumultu came up in all of this...

I wonder, where did "E" take Ardendor?

quote:

AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> Artix Entertainment General Discussion



Message

ArchMagus Orodalf -> AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/13/2010 7:31:29)

DragonFable has recently released an "explanation of the Elemental Orbs' origins" quest. The problem is... it's confusing.

MQ vs. DF:

Kathool claims that the Orbs are the Dragonheart Shards from 5,000 years ago, prior to the Reset, but according to Lord Valorus, they were created only 1,000 years ago, in a time of elemental struggle, when the Shadowscythe threatened to cover "this land" with a corrupting darkness, possibly destroying Lore in the process. From where did they come?

AQ vs. DF:

While the history here gets... confusing, because the two games are on separate timelines, one can still draw usefulness here. The questions are... What happened to the Prime Orbs? According to AQ, the Towers were built to gather and keep safe the Prime Orbs, while in DF, they were for these Orbs coalesced only 1,000 years before. Furthermore, why is it that the two great wars in this region are set off by 100 years? Are they of any connection?

A final question... why does Valorus speak of the Avatars in DF as though they were the only ones?

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Avantir -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/13/2010 14:00:00)

The ShS came from the Darkness realm.

On the topic of the elemental orbs, I think the Dragon Heart Shards were turned into the Elemental Orbs by the Avatars. The Avatars are the Elemental Lords representatives I believe.

I think the differences of DF and AQ are separated by the Titans of Battleon. There may be some similarity, but not that we can speculate on.

And before anyone says anything, I believe that the Titans of Battleon did split the timelines. Cysero said it would, and since it involved the time traveling Phone Booth, could have caused the split before DF began.

MWhat really strikes me as curious is the fact that the war over the Elemental Orbs, the ShS invasion and all that happened 1000 years before DF. That's during the Reset. DF is supposed to begin just after the Reset ended. I don't get it.

One last thing, Kathool never said that the Dragon Heart Shards existed 5000 years ago. He just said that they became the Orbs.

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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/13/2010 14:17:04)

The ShadowScythe are not from the Realm of Darkness. The Lords are not at war and never were. That much, at least, is very clear.

The Dragon Heart Shards DID exist 5,000 years ago, as they are part of one of MechQuest's central storylines.

If the Shards were "turned into" the Orbs, then why did Valorus use the word "coalesce?"

quote:

co•a•lesce   
[koh-uh-les] Show IPA
verb, -lesced, -lesc•ing.
–verb (used without object)
1.
to grow together or into one body: The two lakes coalesced into one.
2.
to unite so as to form one mass, community, etc.: The various groups coalesced into a crowd.
3.
to blend or come together: Their ideas coalesced into one theory.
–verb (used with object)
4.
to cause to unite in one body or mass.


Yes, what happened in the quest "Titans of Battleon" DID split the timelines, but they were already separate prior to the quest. They had simply converged for a time; what happened with the Phone Booth simply split them again.

And where, pray tell, does it say that "DF begins just after the Reset ended"?
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Avantir -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/13/2010 23:09:43)

Ah... I see you have not purchased the MQ Artbook. No matter, here are some quotes.

quote:

3007 - MechQuest
? - The Celestia Incident
The Universe is 50% Reset.
Data Error
The Universe is 95% Reset
4995 Years Later - DragonFable
5 Years Later - AdventureQuest
Later - AdventureQuest Worlds
??? - StickQuest?


Pretty much confirms in my opinion that DF started right after the Reset.

And my bad, they're from the Plane of Darkness.

quote:

The Shadowscythe are ancient alien invaders from the plane of darkness.


That's a portion of a large paragraph.

Let's not get into a debate about the Titans of Battleon please. I was just saying my opinion. You don't have to believe it.

As for the coalesce...

Looking back over it, that makes more sense. They merged DragonHeart Shards with their own element to form the Elemental Orbs.

Also, I was pointing out that Kathool didn't know. He thought. I do play MQ and have obtained the Metal Element.

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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/14/2010 6:59:46)

The thing is, Titans of Battleon was more or less explained in the Codex of Deeper Mysteries.

Plane of Darkness =/= Realm of Darkness. The Lord of Darkness would not send his own against those of the other Lords. If they are traitors, then mayhap they are from the Realm of Darkness.

As for this one:

quote:

3007 - MechQuest
? - The Celestia Incident
The Universe is 50% Reset.
Data Error
The Universe is 95% Reset
4995 Years Later - DragonFable
5 Years Later - AdventureQuest
Later - AdventureQuest Worlds
??? - StickQuest?


It says that DragonFable takes place 4995 years after 95% Reset, no? 4995 is not "right after" in my book.

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Avantir -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/14/2010 15:01:39)

DF has been confirmed by staff to be 4995 years after MQ. The Celestia Incident, 50%, Data Error and 95% are all in between.

While this does not mean that DF is directly after the Reset, by the way that the book does not mention 100%, I can assume the Reset was cut off by something. What, I don not know. Perhaps DF, perhaps not.

And sorry for my mistake about the plane/realm of darkness.

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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/14/2010 18:14:55)

I realize that that has been confirmed. The things is, the book writes it oddly. Furthermore, it is possible that the Reset was never meant to be finished or never finished, hence little hiccups like Kathool and Kordana.

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Mordred -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/14/2010 18:39:02)

Let me dispel the dragonheart shards bit. Kathool knows them as dragonheart shards. They are the same as Prime Orbs, only in a different form. then we have the Reset, which was 5% incomplete. Kathool is part of that, wheras the shards were reset, or "un-made." 3995 years after the Reset is nearly completed, the Avatars coalesce the Orbs. 1000 years later, after Kathool awakes, he recognizes their power as those of the shards. All that's new is their form.

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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/14/2010 19:15:32)

They can't be the Prime Orbs, though. The Prime Orbs existed since the creation of Lore(on); they weren't made a thousand years ago.

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Avantir -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/14/2010 20:28:45)

Oh! Sepulchure said in the Spy quest chain that we had only found one of the real Orbs, and we left that one in the hands of a mercenary.

The DragonHeart Shards became the Orbs that we have found, but the Prime Orbs were created by the Avatars, as seen in the latest Stone/Nature Orbs Saga quest.

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Mordred -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 1:14:49)

@Arch: Are you sure? *scratches head* The latest quest in Willowshire would disagree.
@Avantir: No, not at all. He said we only actively searched for one Orb; the Light Orb. All the others, we've happened to find by chance. Seppy was merely saying that we aren't even acting like we're concerned, otherwise, we would have actually started looking.

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madman 13 -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 2:24:41)

Ok, anyone who played MQ's planet Yokai would know that a dragonheart shard is just that: a shard or fragment of a whole object of unknown description. Therefore the shards could be what the orbs were coalessed out of. Kahool in DF is somewhat reclusive, and only rose near the end of the chapter. Maybe he never saw the orb in the traditional sense, and merely sensed the pressence of the shards used in making it.

I find it interesting to note that Warlics super weapon and the orbs either have similar properties, or were made of the same thing

I would hypothesise that the super weapon in MQ is actually the elemental orbs in a different from, and that the reset partially cancels them out, whereby they were re made 1000 years before DF. This allows the orbs (as dragonheart shards) to be around when Kahool was still on the surface, but could be made thousands of years later as well.

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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 6:33:58)

@Mordred: The latest quest in Willowshire would agree. The Prime Orbs:

quote:

Now there were certain powerful objects held by the temples, which represented the power of the Gods encased in mortal form.

These pieces were considered primal remnants from when the elements were newly encased in enchanted gemstones, cut by the elemental lords themselves into spheres.

These gems were known as the Elemental Orbs, and while many lesser orbs were created to emulate their power, none rivaled the power of the original greater orbs.


The Prime Orbs have existed since the creation.

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Mordred -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 16:43:58)

That does not in any way say they've existed since creation. Also, the Willowshire Orbs are the Prime Orbs. See, it's conflicting...

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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 16:48:47)

When has it been SAID that they are the Prime Orbs?

The above passage STRONGLY implies that they have existed since the beginning. "These pieces were considered primal remnants from when the elements were newly encased in enchanted gemstones" - If they are remnants, they've existed since a certain time, which is stated to be when the elements were newly encased in enchanted gems. Furthermore, that passage tells of a time PRIOR to 1,000 years ago, meaning that the Primal Orbs have existed before 1,000 years ago.

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Mordred -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 18:24:55)

That does not imply since creation to me. 1,000 years is not shot down, either. It could go either way. Also, evidence suggests that they are the Prime Orbs, as when Warlic could no longer sense the Fire Orb, he said he'd have to ask fiamme to coalesce a new one. The Avatars don't go making inferior orbs, they make the real deal.

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stealthwings -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 18:28:52)

Where was it said that the avatars do not make non-prime orbs?

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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 18:30:40)

Evidence suggests that they aren't the Prime Orbs. As I said, the passage above tells of a time PRIOR to 1,000 years ago; it describes one of the first comings of the Devourer.

(Plus the above.)

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Mordred -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 18:32:13)

It would seem that we cannot reach an agreement. Maybe a staff member could enlighten us?

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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 18:33:30)

I doubt it. The staff are... reluctant to let things go. Heh.

I remember that Geno, however, believes that the Orbs in DF are not the Prime Orbs. Whether that opinion has changed, I don't know.

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Falerin -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/15/2010 22:35:03)

The Orbs seen in AQ and in DF are both very important and powerful artifacts after their own right.

I can also state that I was consulted on Kathool at some length and am familiar with the storyline there pretty well and think that is a cool one that leads to even cooler things down the line.

Beyond this I can confirm only that they are materially different (made of different matter). If I can travel between realities I might acquire both for instance.

I cannot and will not confirm if they are substantively different. There are clues and may be more. Certainly the story about the elemental avatars creating the orbs, or that they come from before this creation, are both nods to possibilities.

Though I would not put absolute fact statements on matters that go into areas even more grey then just faithfully recording history. These are issues of mythoi and faith as well. Different cultures and people record very similar, or even the exact same events, radically differently.

Heck, even very less complex and less controversial events such as accidents and crime scenes will have three people seeing the same events with each of the three recalling distinctly different happenings.

Evidence suggests that, generally, the truth will be at variance with all three of them, to a degree.

Worse where the timeline is not sacrosanct, this gets very difficult to the point of impossibility what is original has no meaning when time is fluid.

Which segues nicely into the second point...

As to the offered, somewhat offhand, opinion about Titan's I can provide enlightenment.

The divide was not created by Cysero but it was definitely effectively enforced by him. A moment of realities converging on each other and growing close enough for convergence had that closeness artificially amplified and then effectively eliminated by alterations to the time streams.

Pointing out that a time machine was involved so that the change could occur anywhere in time is an almost religious non sequitir. Such a belief cannot be falsified. You could argue that he traveled back before creation and even if the alteration that split the two occured there it could be argued they were still "originally" the same until something was done to split them. Time is not always linear either and that complicates thing immensely.

When time travel undoes the very foundations of the previous condition in paradox it more then stops being the original condition.
The very original condition was uncreated.

Opinion that is not dispelled by actual fact and which is prefaced by "lets not discuss this" on a discussion forum for speculation about just that sort of thing goes beyond opinion and strays close to either willful ignorance or fanaticism. Neither are very helpful to conversation here.

There is considerable evidence that the time lines of AQ and DF are fundamentally different, at their very core. It goes at least as far back as the reset... At least is relative though... time travel IS involved.

I could even see someone arguing, not without evidence, that DF is what the MQ universe looked like after the reset re-patterned it after a convergently and conveniently close universe...

I am not verifying that at all and I think other evidence suggests that is poor explanation including remnants of mecha and the ShS on AQ's version of Lore. Then again.... travel between worlds and places was not unknown to that universe.

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Mordred -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/16/2010 1:33:45)

Thank you, Falerin. This helps greatly. Until time passes, we cannot say for sure yet. We will have to wait and find out more about this matter through Sepulchure, I guess. But, fundamentally, it's possible that both sides of our discussion are true, thanks to time travel... At least, I think that's what you meant... Time travel is so confusing...

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MestreLipe -> RE: AQ, DF, MQ, STORY - What the devil is with Kathool? (11/16/2010 11:53:53)

I was kind of confused when I started reading Falerin's post. Maybe because I can't understand english so well at all (I'm brazilian), but I could understand that he says that when the universes got so close, the could be an event that was internalized in different ways by both sides, so that's why Kathool (that survived the Reset) and Valorus disagree about the Orbs.

Them too, are different, like I'm different from me-of-other-universe. Think that they are essentially the same, but different between them, and on the meaning that they represent for others.

~S.

quote:


Void Energy (Full Version)


All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [AdventureQuest] >> AdventureQuest General Discussion



Message

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Mordred -> Void Energy (3/19/2011 10:09:06)

I'm sure we've heard the term thrown around a bit here. We know that it's found in the Void, and that it yields to all Creation and Uncreation(making the Void the metaphorical "womb" of the multiverse, no?). But how does it go from pure energy(not Energy, the element) to Created and Uncreated matter? Is this a secret of the gods? Further still, can Void energy do other things besides being used to Create or Uncreate everything and to blast your opponents into oblivion?

Speculate and discuss!




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 10:12:47)

It can twist those who dwell for too long in it into grotesque forms, while also causing something I'd like to call "Void Madness"*.

So, my observations would say that it can deform reality and creation.


*See Pellow Village.




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Mordred -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 10:15:23)

Well, perhaps it's not that the energy actively corrupts and twists, but such creatures and organisms we've seen to come into contact with the Void are incapable of handling the Void energy, and their bodies and minds are twisted in an effort to cope. But yeah, guess Word of God would help. :P




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Vipm1 -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 10:20:18)

Possibly the gods created Void energy as a last resort against some unspeakable foe. A hail mary of sorts. But, eventually people found it and tried to use it for there own purposes.




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 10:20:24)

@Mordred: Of course they are. They meddle with the "Clay of the Gods", the "Clay of Creation" if you will.

Let's not forget that the Void also serves as a prison to the most dangerous of defeated monsters in all of creation though ....

Perhaps the Void Energy also cancels their powers to prevent them from fleeing that place?




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Mordred -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 10:26:27)

Yes, the Void is a prison of sorts, so either the Void energy prevents their escape, or it attempts to instill enough power into them over time to make them kersplode. The latter has mixed results, as can be seen with the super Void baddies, such as Shadow Mistress Elizabeth. :P

@Vipm1: Seeing as how Void energy is a direct tool of the gods to Create(and Uncreate), I doubt that.




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Vipm1 -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 10:28:55)

Well I would say lots of them have kersploded b/c of Zfraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag or whatever being the only one there. Also, what does the void look like? Zfraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag is on a beach so I have no idea.




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Mordred -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 10:33:22)

Well, actually, there were many monsters in the Void. However, they've been temporarily disabled to test some Champion Elite Bosses.

The Void in DF and AQW is all purply. However, in AQ, it seems to be compromised of various bits of Created and possibly Uncreated matter.




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 10:39:44)

Perhaps it's purple to reflect on it's chaotic nature? The Void could be considered to be raw chaos.
Chaos on itself is not chaotic, until you add it to order. Thus explaining why the Void tends to corrupt those who enter/tap into it's power.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 11:56:18)

Perhaps that's the secret of the Engine of Creation.




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Mordred -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 11:58:29)

Void Energy? Yes, it would be possible. Maybe the Engine transforms Void energy into the elements and workable material for the Avatars?




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 12:06:08)

Here:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalanyr

[You go from Void to Uncreation] the same way you go from Void to Creation. Which in the case of most beings is not at all. It takes immense power to safely use Void energy as a weapon, using it directly for creation or uncreation is harder still.


Using Void to Create/Uncreate is very difficult, Kal says. :P Perhaps it is the secret of the Engine, then. Mayhap we'll learn more next week, when the last Novus quest is released and The'Galin presumably gets the Engine.




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 12:12:08)

@ArchMagus Orodalf: Taking one of your quotes of Kalanyr.
quote:

Raw mana is void energy which is why it does void damage. Being able to make use of void damage safely usually implies some kind of exceptional power or careful focus.


So, in fact all what mages and wizards do is mimicking the elemental lords. "Creating" "Forming (existing) elements out of raw mana.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 12:13:33)

Well, no. The question was regarding the conversion of Energy to Matter. Magi and Wizards convert the Energy from one form to another, no? o.0




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 12:16:06)

Raw mana is void energy which is why it does void damage.

Oh, the'Galin + Engine of Creation = Creation of Uncreation = Black Hole = Dooming the universe




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 12:49:09)

Yes... and?

Also, The'Galin is a deity with only the universe's best interests at heart. There's nothing wrong with him getting the Engine. >>




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 12:51:05)

@ArchMagus Orodalf: I know that, it's just that they make it sound like it's a bad thing. Perhaps he's got fed up with all these new planets he has to monitor and has decided to put an end to creation (as in the creation of NEW planets).

Oh, about the mana. If raw mana is void energy it falls within the discussion of this thread.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 12:58:13)

Yes, but I'm bringing up the point that Magi and Wizards aren't using Void Energy to create Elemental Matter; they're merely aligning Mana (Void Energy) to an element, making it Elemental Energy (not Matter). The question that Mordred is trying to answer is in terms of changing Void Energy into Elemental Matter.




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 13:09:23)

quote:

But how does it go from pure energy(not Energy, the element) to Created and Uncreated matter? Is this a secret of the gods? Further still, can Void energy do other things besides being used to Create or Uncreate everything and to blast your opponents into oblivion?


Hm, would Absolix count as a (sort of) god being a being uncreated by the'Galin?

Oh, already changed that a while back.
quote:

So, in fact all what mages and wizards do is mimicking the elemental lords. "Creating" "Forming (existing) elements out of raw mana.




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Atomix -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 14:51:14)

Well some monsters get into there by Death stealing their soul maybe.

Or, the baddies get taken to the void as a punishment?




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black knight 1234567 -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 15:25:11)

Void is near impossible too capture. Too capture both uncreation and cretaion is near IMPOSSIBLE. Only person I cna think of the top of my head that can do that is Scor- oops, worn game :P I mean the Mysterious Stranger from what we saw he can do.




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Kalanyr -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 17:52:38)

Most Wizards and Mages don't manipulate raw mana, they manipulate mana that has been imbued with elemental energy *before* they manipulate it, most of the mana that is found on Lore is imbued with elemental energy (often times more than 1) from the action of Creation itself.

Manipulating Void energy is hard (though not impossible, Beleqwaya's magical area of focus is the manipulaton of mana particularly in its raw form), and a simple spell like Fireball does not use Void energy to Create Fire. Finding it isn't precisely easy either considering that when it interacts with Created things it tends to react with them in ways that covert a chunk of both what they reacted with and itself into something else.


Also many of the creatures and objects encountered in the Void are not imprisoned there, some are merely lost travellers, some are travellers on their way to elsewhere, the Void serves as both the gateway and pathway between worlds in many senses, some aren't real in the way you would understand it, they come from worlds that never existed, from times that have not yet been, or that no longer can be or that are long past.




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Jakau Ryuu -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 21:07:30)

Is it wrong of me to find the discussion of the Void & its energies to be so fascinating?

@Kalanyr: Would an extremely talented mage be able to "blend" elementally-aligned mana with unaligned mana/Void energies? If so, would it simply be a multi-"elemental" spell with a non-elemental component, or would the Void energy have odd effects on the elemental portion of the spell? (Or, is this an actual mechanic of metamagic - infusing the spell with Void-energy in a controlled manner to increase or alter its capabilities?)

It kind of surprises me that we haven't seen anyone try, as one would think that even that simple fireball would be a lot more devastating if the caster had partially drawn on Void-energy to cast it - either due to having that same energy provide a second layer of damage, or said energy having some sort of indirect effect on the fire. That said, the infused-fireball would probably be exponentially harder to perform than the unaltered form, even if itwere to be done, but it seems to be the sort of thing that would have been at least attempted at some point.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 21:26:58)

Hmm. So, if Wizards and Magi use Mana in that way, why is a nearby planet with a magical core needed?

@Above: Consider the fact that most Magic-users can't even combine the elements in a single spell. Forget about trying to use Void and an element. :P




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Jakau Ryuu -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 21:58:28)

@ArchMagus Orodalf: Indeed, it would be quite the task, but I can't help but think that someone would have attempted it at some point. If can occur to one person, after all, it can occur to others, and wizards & magi are often portrayed as an inherently curious lot.

Regarding your question, my own guess would be that the core is needed to help hold on to ambient, elementally-aligned mana, otherwise it would disperse and/or decay. Mana seems to be a finicky, unstable substance from what we know of it, so it's possible that it can only hold together in meaningful quantities when relatively near other samples of itself, and even then the large quantities may need to be contained, i.e., Lore's (usually) sealed core. In that respect, mana almost seems to be a hybrid of gas and energy (as science defines it).




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Mordred -> RE: Void Energy (3/19/2011 22:34:35)

Actually, I suspect in appearance and its effect on matter would be like that of plasma.




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Kalanyr -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 3:57:09)

A Mana Core is not strictly speaking necessary for performing magic it just makes thing many many times easier, for many magic is either impossible or significantly reduced in the effects it can achieve without a mana core.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 7:13:53)

Yes, there was talk of Magic being severely inefficient without one; but how does it make it things easier? And is it necessary for the core to be Elemental, as Lore's is?




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Kalanyr -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 7:22:24)

A Mana Core provides large amounts of mana in a small area, in space mana is much more thinly spread (and frequently more raw, though there's still some elemental alignment going on from various effects) which makes it harder to gather and use.

As to the second, I have no idea but I suspect so, outside of the Lorian Cosmological setup the concept of a Mana Core is meaningless, and within it its unlikely you're going to find anyone or anything with both with the capability of creating a non-elemental mana core and the world view necessary to even conceptualize a non-elemental mana core, so for practical purpose the answer is probably yes all Mana Cores are elemental.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 7:27:06)

So is that how Vanatia's Staff or the Unaga Staves work? Do they carry around compressed Mana Cores? o.0 And how is the Unified Electromagnetic-Gravitational Force related to magic, and why may it be used to its full efficiency without such a Core? How is it related to Void Energy, and what is the difference between Void Matter and Void Energy?




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Kalanyr -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 7:45:59)

Only in the sense that a Lantern is a compressed Sun. Thats not something I've studied. That either, though my tentative theory is that its essentially magic aligned with Energy from various cosmic forces and that its not used to full efficiency , it seems limited in its capabilities compared to the magic that is available to a Lorian Wizard , nothing/everything/perception/random fluctuations in the probability field of something that is both potentially everything and the negation of everything.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 7:57:17)

What a jumbled response. :P So the difference between Void Matter and Energy can be between everything and nothing. Heh.

Yeah, UniForce seems to be technomagic...

So, how do Kalanyr's magics function, since he's not from Lore? We've never seen him in combat; would his magic show up as Elemental or Void/Harm?




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Kalanyr -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 8:18:38)

He usually uses Lorian magic on Lore.

His native magic (both the stuff innate to him as a member of his race and the stuff he uses more like a Mage) is largely elemental in nature and maps well enough to some of the Lorian elements (and not exactly elements) that it would show up that way.




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Leon~o -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 8:33:28)

Wait...mana seems be like pure energy and it is considered Void energy in it's untainted form

So why does the Void Dragon (Ugly ones) who are supposedly immersed in Void energy a abomination that sucks in matter?

Maybe Void is separated similarly like Matter and Anti-matter

Would explain why there is Harm and Void (Opposite matter cancels each other out so I guess that's why Void attacks hurts so much)




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BlacKitten25 -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 8:58:54)

Harm is simply damage that is not aligned with any element while Void is, something like the energy and essence of creation itself; pure chaos.

So that's why just a single ArchMage is said to be capable of turning the tides of the battle. Channeling pure, raw mana and blasting it at opponents. I'm excited for the ArchMage class.




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Leon~o -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 9:38:01)

@BlacKitten25: Then what is Harm?

Everything we've seen so far bar Void has had a elemental affinity, and note, ArchMage Research does Harm damage, not void.

Well, Harm aside, what do you think of the Anti-matter theory? The Void Dragons does have max weakness to everything so I guess we are it's equivalent of what Void is to us?




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Mordred -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 9:42:08)

ArchMage Research does Harm damage because you don't want Void damage. In most cases, it has to be severely penalized, whereas Harm is not penalized as much.

I'll say my theory again: Void <insert creature here>s live in the Void, and have direct exposure to Void energy. I think that they absorb it slowly, and their bodies change in order to try to accommodate the chaos within them. Their bodies reflect the energies they now have at their disposal. So, Void energy does not inherently twist things into looking grotesque, but the creatures naturally try to change.




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Kalanyr -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 9:51:51)

Dragons are great big elemental energy capacitators Void energy is .... not exactly elemental energy ... filling a dragon up with it has some ... strange... effects.




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Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 10:08:08)

@Kalanyr: What of "Void Madness"*?

Oh, would Vartai also qualify as big elemental energy capacitators?


*See Pellow Village.




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Leon~o -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 10:14:39)

@Mordred: Harm is a 100% modifier to everything, Void is a 200% modifier to everything bar a few exception

A Void spell at half the power of a Harm one would do the same damage...so what is Harm? Why have 2 neutral elements?

Kalanyr's vague answer is....vague xD

@Dwelling Dragonlord: Oh right, Pellow Village's inhabitants had their emotions separated from them, I guess the Void gave them shape to exist independently?

Speaking of DF, The Creatioux and the Decadere is where I got my theory of Anti-matter analogue from




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Jakau Ryuu -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 11:04:52)

@Dwelling Dragonlord: Two things:
-First, I'm not so sure that Kal' can account for DF's Void as well as he can for AQ's variant.
-Second, I'd hazard the guess that the Vartai would also qualify, but to a lesser extent than would full dragons.

Regarding your "Void Madness" question... my own theory takes Mordred's into account and expands on it a little. I suspect that their bodies aren't the only things reshaping themselves to account for the unbridled chaos - the mind as-is can't handle being in an environment like the Void for too long. So, in its attempts to shift to better grasp and function in the twisted surroundings, it changes to a point where the being would be considered "insane" by normal standards... but for a being with long-term, nigh-unbroken exposure to the Void, it's perfectly normal, as what works on Lore, doesn't necessarily apply in the Void.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 11:55:13)

Hmm...
quote:

in space mana is much more thinly spread (and frequently more raw, though there's still some elemental alignment going on from various effects)


So does that mean that outer space is much like the Void? If so, that explains why Alien Zards look so much like Void Dragons. :P

Leon, Kal already explained the difference between Harm and Void for us.
quote:

Harm is energy without elemental alignment. Its usually a property of things that do not come from Lore, that aren't from a world with a compatible elemental structure (eg if a sword was aligned with Night energy and it came to Lore it would most likely end up as Darkness), and that don't obviously fall into a Lorian classification ( a sword of fire is a Fire weapon, a stone club is an earth weapon)*. Some specifically focused Lorian items deal harm damage by artificially inducing an "elemental" alignment with something outside of the element structure, eg becoming Anti-Zard element. Some Poisons deal harm damage by causing an internal breakdown in tissue rather than elemental interactions, these poisons actually occur relatively rarely in nature, but see fairly common use by sentients since poisons are generally only used when normal tactics prove ineffective.

Void energy is more complicated, its the raw stuff from which all things spring, its both elementally aligned to all elements, hostile to all elements, and unassociated with elements. Raw mana is void energy which is why it does void damage. Being able to make use of void damage safely usually implies some kind of exceptional power or careful focus (many trigger weapons make use of void damage safely by creating a reaction with something that essentially generates very small amounts of void energy). Manasplosion is a very unsafe use of Void energy, failing or badly damaging the caster if not carefully managed. Archmage Research is a more refined version which causes a smaller and more controlled amount of damage to the caster (it also doesn't consume all the mana available to the caster).

The reason why things that are resistant to Void are usually resistant to Harm is because things that are resistant to Void are usually resistant to everything to some extent (ie the resistant to Void and Harm both flow from some kind of generic resistance property), while there are exceptions it should be noted that most such creatures are usually strangely related to Lore's cosmology in their own right , Void Dragons are descended from Lorians dragons who natural possess high elemental affinity attuning to Void energy instead, which has had several strange effects on their physiology and their psychology.

*There are a few items and beings from other worlds that possess such exceptional power that would up being aligned to Void rather than Harm, but they are very very rare.

[Also from an meta perspective some things are currently immune to or heavily resistant to void and harm simply because we don't want you using flat %ile draining things which have a bajillion HP and are Level >You, strangely we feel that being really powerful shouldn't be a disadvantage to a monster. Several such creatures will lose their resistances once we've dealt with %ile effects (no we don't plan on killing all of them some of them will end up similar to Assassin's Creed or the Guardian Dragon where the %ile damage done is limited by a level comparison).

Very few things will resist Void (Void Dragons are pretty much the only thing I can think of off hand), but similarly there will be very few sources of Void damage, mainly from triggers on creatures that have a wide variety of elemental variants or from things that harm the user. More than that will resist Harm, although usually to a lesser extent than they resist elemental damage. ]




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Leon~o -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 13:00:40)

@ArchMagus Orodalf: Yay for huge explaining text :D

Last thing before I go to sleep, if space is similar to the void than how do we cast magic effectively in the void?

Do you mean it lacks mana or the mana exists in raw form? (Both are bad for casting magic right?)




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 13:02:02)

You can't cast magic effectively in space (or, at least, Lorians haven't figured out how to, though the Unaga apparently have). That's the whole reason why the WarpForce has to rely on Technology more than anything else.

I believe Kal said that it mainly exists in a spread out, raw form above.




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Leon~o -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 13:06:28)

@ArchMagus Orodalf: Oops, I meant how do we cast effective in Void, I messed up the wording xD

I was referring to how you were saying space and the void were similar




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Kalanyr -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 13:24:48)

The areas of the Void you fight in are usually not the true Void, they are little areas that are stabilized for various purposes. The time you actually went into an area of the true void in pursuit of Beleqwaya, you had help.




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Leon~o -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 13:27:47)

@Kalanyr: I was wondering why the Restoration journey needed special protection xD




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 20:03:36)

So... how does the Ethereal Realm factor into magic?




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alexcyr115 -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 22:36:47)

What makes divine magic different from other magic?




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Mordred -> RE: Void Energy (3/20/2011 22:56:45)

What? What do you mean by divine magic?



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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/21/2011 6:33:14)

Falerin once said that there are several types of magic: Non-elemental, Elemental, Metamagic, and Divine Magic. I don't have teh quote, and teh thread went teh kaput. =.=

But the difference is presumably that there's a God behind Divine Magic. :P




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Mordred -> RE: Void Energy (3/21/2011 6:36:41)

No quote is necessary. I figured it just meant that a god was behind it, but wanted confirmation. Thanks!

No, I doubt that Divine Magic solely deals with Void energy. I think that if the Lords cast some magic, it would be considered Divine. Void energy probably is much easier for a god to use in magic than for a mortal, I suspect.




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black knight 1234567 -> RE: Void Energy (3/21/2011 6:53:31)

Jakau's arguement is VERY intresting.
But blending elemntal mana + Void would probably end up un-creating th elemental magic possibly leaving un-stable Void.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/21/2011 7:05:53)

Speaking of which, a few more questions:

Why does the Reaper (Lorian) claim that the Void is HIS Realm? And why is combining the elements in magic so difficult that only Tralin can do it?




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Kalanyr -> RE: Void Energy (3/21/2011 7:40:08)

Because the little area you're playing around in *is* his realm. If I built up a tower and set up shop in it and claimed all the ground in a kingdom sized area around it, I could call it my realm without implying I owned all of Lore or all of the Multiverse.

*eyebrow raise* I think you may need to state what you mean by "combining" the elements since I can think of several spells that are within the realm of a mage who hasn't even mastered his art that have more than one element in them.




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black knight 1234567 -> RE: Void Energy (3/21/2011 8:25:22)

He means void + element, I highly doubt its possible.




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/21/2011 15:08:41)

No, I mean what Tralin does.
quote:

Tralin was something of a wonder in the school of thought, a generalist of the highest caliber, his specialty lay in heretofore unique and fascinating combinations of spheres. Tralin was said to be able to even combine elements that normally opposed in his complex magical rituals.


Oddly enough, this makes it seem unusual that Tralin can accomplish such a feat.

One more question:

BACON.

What is Bacon? It plays less of a role in AQ than DF, but it still exists. In AQ, we have Bacon Spellcraft, which deals Void damage. In general, though, what is the nature of Bacon, and what has it to do with Void?

In a DF thread, we were talking about why Void "Elementals" in DF were weak against the "element" created by the supposed "Chickencow God." My hypothesis was that Bacon is merely a type of Void Energy primed for Creation, like the stuff in the Deep. Is this correct?




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alexcyr115 -> RE: Void Energy (3/21/2011 19:30:07)

It sounds like Divine Magic is spells cast by gods, but why would the nature of the caster change the nature of the spell?




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ArchMagus Orodalf -> RE: Void Energy (3/23/2011 20:42:29)

One more, Kal: How is the Moon connected to the Void? o.0