Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (Full Version)

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Sylvir -> Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (8/26/2011 23:24:33)

Hello. I'm Sylvir, an artist "from" AdventureQuest forums. I started my art career here many years ago, roughly 2003-2004. I was a frequent poster of the then titled "AQDAAS (Adventure Quest Digital Arts and Signatures" thread, as well as one of the many blooming artists willing to call it home. After a massive 3 year break, I've come back to see massive changes to the forums. I was here for the beginning of the more strict reforms placed upon the "Creative Arts" section of the forums, such as the approved artist ideal, but never saw it through to the end. I'm glad to call this forum home, but in it's current state, it doesn't foster proper creativity and is restrictive as opposed to helpful to any prospective poster. The fact that it takes two threads, one of which is entirely pointless, to have a proper gallery on the section, is sort of redundant. A discussion thread is unneeded, as discussion can and should take place in the forum. (Which is, essentially, the point of posting in the forum at all.) It's a massive inconvenience for any "regulars" we still have to post a comment on a gallery. It requires multiple tabs, jumping around on the forums, all to properly assess and comment on someone's artwork.

Additionally, the format of the Creative Arts section of the forums is, in my opinion, all wrong. It should be divided into three to four subforums. Essentially, it should follow this architecture.

Creative Arts
-Digital Arts & Signatures (Contains ONE[1] thread per person for galleries, where comments remain attached. This is convenient for moderators, posters, and original thread starters alike. It alleviates the thread spam, and condenses the forum. Additionally, galleries that are inactive will be kicked to the back where they belong, regardless how good your art is, if you're not updating it, you don't deserve to be on the front page.)
--Battle (Contains the "Signature/Art" battle thread.)
-Flash
-Drawing
-Resources (Contains Help, Stock Packs, etc.)

This would help condense the art forums into an easier to read format, while helping to maintain a constant base of posters. The layout just doesn't make sense in a forum, where the entire purpose is to discuss the original post. (And any relevant posts after that.) This also allows more decisive moderating. Moderators interested in posting and maintaining resources for the Digital Art community would be in the Resources, as opposed to just Creative Art, etc.
Ideally, I'd like to see AQDAAS or "Creative Art" back to it's former glory, a founding place, a stepping stone for budding artists, as it was for so many of us already.

I'd gladly help any admins think this out or set this up. The Creative Arts section should foster creativity, not stifle it, in it's current state.

I appreciate the opportunity to post this and hope it's not falling on deaf ears. Thank you.



Smalls -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (8/26/2011 23:29:40)

I do agree with Sylvir
The CA section is a mess, and nobody comments on anything.
There needs to be an approved artist system again. That way people have to know something about art and how to constructive criticize. When I joined it was still The Gallery, and you had to pass a C/C test to be able to get it. People would get good C/C back then and it would help them improve.
Now the CA is dead and nobody can get help from anyone else because most the posts seem to be "That's really cool!"
That helps nobody improve. Not only would the C/C help the artists. It would also help the poster, it would help them find out how to review art and think about the art. Rather than taking one glance at it and saying that they like it.



Solar Boy -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (8/27/2011 1:42:30)

I agree that the Creative Arts section could use an(other) overhaul. One thing that I'm less keen on is the idea of segregating artists by their medium. This was helpful back in the day since the AE art community was much larger and one section simply wouldn't be able to contain everything sufficiently, however that's no longer the case. Additionally, I think it's nice to get opinions on your work from artists who work in a different media. I know I for one learned a lot about color schemes and composition from you GFX guys. :p

A while back I created a mock-up of what I thought would be a nice layout for the gallery area out of a mashup of screenshots of the galleries of past and present. I figure it seems worth sharing here. [linky] <.>



Sylvir -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (8/27/2011 2:00:14)

Ideally, I'd like to see it back the way it was. It fostered great creativity, there was nothing obviously "wrong" or "flawed" with the forums. It was a massive creative outlet that we all enjoyed. What's so wrong with that?



Dracelix -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (8/27/2011 17:49:42)

yep, totally agree, i started as a basic pixel and sprite artist in 2008 and the way the art section was back then was really helpful and encouraging and id even say vastly more friendly and more like a community.
then slowly people i knew wondered away one by one as new younger an more naive artists came by due to the changes, which made me leave the forum for a year or two.
im back now and quite a good artist, but when i first took a look at the new system i was just O.o
i have tried to work my way into the new system, but it just doesnt feel right, the way that the galleries are just an archive of threads in alphabetical order and the comments in a whole new section.



Arch Fiend -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (8/29/2011 15:01:17)

i agree though i only skemmed your statment. ive been here those 3 years you left and i everything but gave up on my gallery because no one would post. i hope to see changes though i really do, the place is importent to me and for the time being i give it my best.



flamingknight11 -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (8/29/2011 20:02:34)

I agree with the post that something needs to be changed to promote more CC and discussions among the artists. Requiring artists to take the CC test might be a good start since it means that at least the other artists would be able to help each other sharpen their skills and improve.
But re-seperating the galleries might not work as well as it used to. Alot of artists left the galleries and quite a few aren't very active. Seperating the galleries more would make each section be very empty and isolated. As well, like what Solar Boy said, having a look at and giving CC to other artists would help understand the basis of art (ie: colour, design, composition, etc) and help introduce artists to other forms of art. An idea would be that artists are asked/required to label what each gallery focuses on. Hand Drawn, Digital, Flash, etc. That way people know what the gallery is about just like what seperating the galleries would do while helping us stay closer as a community.



Sylvir -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/2/2011 16:23:23)

I honestly just want to see things back "the way they were".



Zyrain -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/2/2011 18:05:50)

I completely agree with this suggestion. Ever since the Approved Artists system was removed and the boards were redesigned, I haven't participated in the arts nor have I been part of the amazing CA community.

I would love for CA to be how it was in the good old days. When I first started doing art in CA, after being invited by a friendly artist, I was poor but there was constantly people who would help me and inspire me to keep trying and eventually get better. I miss it.

Using ideas from the current CA board, the old CA board, and the suggestions provided; I have come up with my own suggestion on how I, personally, would prefer CA to appear. Yes; it is very, very similar to how the old CA worked.

    Creative Arts

  • The Exhibit Hall
    • The Showcase *
    • Showcase Showdown!
    • The Cafe

  • Resource Room
    • Artistic Requests
    • Help & Support
    • Guides & Tutorials

Key:
Red Boards - Only Approved Artists are able to create threads and post replies in that board.
Plain Boards - Everyone is free to create threads and post replies in that board.
* - Instead of having an Artistic Responses board, people can comment on the actual art threads.



Everest -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/3/2011 12:56:26)

I can definitively tell you things won't simply go back to the way they used to be. Most notably the Approved Artists group will not be re-implemented. These forums are designed to promote easy interaction between everyone interested, not to create divisions between members and removing capabilities that should be open for everyone.

However, the setup of the forum itself is something we could take a look at. Unfortunately our head moderator for that section resigned a few days ago. I did manage to catch up with him and he and I spoke about potential improvements that could possibly be made. All this is secondary to finding a new head of that forum at this point in time, so I'd ask you to bear with us while we're in flux. When things are more settled we will be looking more closely at that forum to see if there are any improvements or changes we can make which will benefit the CA board.

I'll leave the thread open if you would like to throw ideas around together, though they shouldn't be regarding Approved Artists or any type of separation. That particular issue is not open for discussion. I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread to write down some possibilities.



Smalls -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/3/2011 13:59:44)

Well
Here's an idea I have if you're going to keep the gallery and reply threads separate
If you notice there has been a lack of joint galleries when, I believe, it was one of the better things that the forum had before
If you're going to keep gallery and reply threads separate I think you should implement a joint gallery forum so people can have those again as it really helped community interaction, I know I loved it. It's a great way for a lot of different artists to join together and everything
And I do believe there should be an area for C/C, not just one thread. Like people could have a Gallery, a Reply thread, and a C/C area just so they could, well, get C/C



Zyrain -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/3/2011 14:09:51)

Everest: I understand. Your reasoning for removing the Approved Artist system is greater than my reasons for keeping it.

I think Smalls has a really good suggestion about joint galleries there, because I certainly feel they are missed. Artists who weren't so confident with their pieces would feel more comfortable in a joint gallery, I was very much so one of those people.

However, if nothing else changes to the Creative Arts forum, I at least hope that comments/etc. are posted on the art threads, instead of having two separate threads per gallery for art and comments.



Sylvir -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/3/2011 17:12:45)

quote:

Creative Arts


  • The Exhibit Hall

The Showcase *
Showcase Showdown!
The Cafe


  • Resource Room

Artistic Requests
Help & Support
Guides & Tutorials


Then why don't we organize it that way without the Approved Artist feature. That layout is excellent, easy to navigate, and convenient. This seems to be what everyone is requesting, and I can't imagine it'd be that difficult to implement.



Sylvir -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/12/2011 21:56:23)

I think I'm going to give this a slight poke. Any update in status on the head mod from the admin team? We Gallery lurkers are curious. ^^ <3



[Aegis] -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/12/2011 22:31:17)

Even though there is no chance of the Approved Artists group coming back, there still needs to be a way to express how important crucial giving Constructive Criticism is. The greatest part about the approval of an artist was that they got to learn the most basic part about making the CA section thrive; good CnC. Now, whether it be that those newer to the CA section are not comfortable enough to give CnC to another artist, or if they're just not aware of its importance, (or even existance) we are losing that most basic fundamental. Though this thread explains how to give good CnC, nowhere does it explain the importance of giving it in order to allow the community to come together and grow together. We need to figure out a way to express the absolute dire necessity of giving CnC the CA section without the use of the Approved Artist group. Even if everything else stays the same, this has to be the one thing that we fix.



Everest -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/12/2011 23:51:33)

I agree with that assessment, [Aegis]. Fortunately there are ways to do so without restricting posting access. On the moderation end we can more strictly monitor the constructiveness of a reply, for instance, if deemed necessary.

I welcome any suggestions regarding ways constructive replies can be increased in number and usefulness. Though please do suggest within the boundaries that have been set as a part of forum policy. I like your suggestion to add onto that thread, it's a good start - though objectively a member likely to have the desire to read through that thread may not be the type of member who would require such a message. The lay member is more the target audience here. So in what ways can these more casual members improve their critique?


And to be blunt, Sylvir, appointing a new section head is not simple nor is it quick. I assure you the matter has not been forgotten.



[Aegis] -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/13/2011 21:31:55)

Monitoring the constructiveness of posts will do us no good. If we bring to someone's attention that they're posts are not constructive enough, that will merely discourage them from posting CnC at all. We need a way to encourage CnC and learning how to grow in giving CnC. The best I could come up with so far is that we have a thread where you must read a post about how to give CnC and the importance of giving it. In that thread, everyone must post saying that they read the entire thing. To ensure that everyone has read the entire thing there should be periodic commands within the guide saying how to make your post of saying that you read the guide. For example, one command would say that your post must begin with # of characters in your forum name. The one major flaw I see with this is the thread would be difficult to upkeep with keeping track of who replied to the thread correctly, allowing them to "legally" (for lack of a better word) make a gallery.



Everest -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/13/2011 23:54:10)

What will do us no good is to offhandedly dismiss something. Discourteously, no less. I am glad to see input in this thread, but there are better and more constructive ways to disagree with someone.

I assure you I am quite experienced in the area of forum moderation. It would be good if you would treat my suggestions with respect like I am treating yours.



[Aegis] -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/14/2011 15:52:25)

I treat every suggestion (including my own) equally, putting no idea over another without carefully weighing each one's pros and cons. I admit that I did appear disrespectful, and I apologize for that, but I did not intend for it to come across that way.

I believe that the issue over encouraging CnC is not an issue that requires moderation. The problem lies in the fact that no one (or most people) want(s) to give CnC anymore because they don't fully recognize the importance of it, or, they may know that it's good for helping people grow in their abilities (not just artistically) but they still won't give CnC because they were never taught how to (this is a theory that I've been thinking about for a couple months now). How I read your post was that people giving CnC not deemed constructive enough would be informed of it and asked to give more helpful CnC (rather than just "Oh, that looks cool. Nice job."). Though I was completely fine with the idea of bringing to the attention of any forum-goer that they may need to improve on their CnC, I felt that it would go against the idea of giving CnC through the kindness of your heart. I know the two topics seem a bit off from each other, but let me explain. Currently, we have an open system where anyone (knowledgeable in CnC or not) can come into the CA section and create their own gallery. People in the section give CnC whenever they want to, and take their own time out of the day to do so. Though it is encouraged, no one has to give CnC. If we try to correct someone's CnC, it would more than likely be discouraged from giving further CnC because we would be trying to "correct" something that the person took time out of their day to write. In the old system, it was required that a person was at least slightly knowledgeable in CnC to pass the CnC test and be accepted into the Accepted Artists group. If they failed the test, they were corrected on their "mistakes" (They weren't really mistakes, but things that could be improved upon). What kept them coming back to try again though was the reward of becoming an Approved Artist if they passed the next time. So we need a system that mimics the results of the CnC test, but does so without the use of the Approved Artists group. I am frequently trying to come up with a system that does so, but have yet to construct without fatal flaws.
Again, that is my theory on the current standings of the CA section. I'm sure others believe differently.

As I said before, my idea of a thread where you must read what good CnC is and the importance of it would not work because of the heavy moderation of keeping track of who has not replied correctly to the thread and making sure that they have done so before creating a gallery.



Jecht Dracopyre -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/14/2011 20:11:32)

I've been here since the Signature and Avatar makers Association, I got to be apart of its rise and I've watched it's decline so in an effort to improve conditions I may as well add my two cents. I for one am glad that the Approved Artist Group is gone never to return...when I first came to these forums it was to ask a question about AQ that was it I was going to log out never to return again but I stumbled upon clans and that led me to the SaAmA. I had no idea of the power of Photoshop, no idea what Flash even was, (it was the shockwave player back then lol) no concept of general art principals, and if that approved artist group had been implemented back then I never would have found what I wanted to do with my life.

I've seen a bit about CnC and in my opinion I'm going to have to politely disagree, while CnC is important I don't think that it's crucial to an artists development it's geared more toward a piece's development. TS1 in a post located here linked an excellent video that says to close the gap of where your work is and where you want it to be is to create large volumes of work...practice. I remember way back when StevenUchiha and I won the debate club avatar contest and got our galleries sticky'd for a week I was so excited for seven days I was pushing out 12-15 tags a day (that was alot back then) and I probably got 5 CnC posts altogether. What I did notice is that tags that used to take me 3hrs I was knocking out in an hour other artists around the forums were taking interest in me and giving advice on how to improve my style I felt more comfortable with my work. CnC only helps you point out your flaws not fix them. I can say "Great concept the colors work well the convey the message of your piece but the composition is off." of course I could go into great detail about what in your composition is off and how to fix it but that would be a tutorial..right? and if you don't understand the rules of composition and why yours if off then your just going to make the same mistakes with your next piece and you'll need another CnC/tutorial to fix that and so on. I think that making CnC crucial would turn this place into one of those hardcore "GFX" communities that you can find thousands of on the web...and as we all know those die quickly and suddenly. The success of those communities depend on the gap and growth between the best and worst there, as long as your rapidly improving there's no problem but what happens when your good but not great, when less CnC can be given b/c your better than most there and the best has no more secrets left to share..whats to keep you there so you leave. I don't think any of us want that for The Gallery.

So on to my point, what do I feel the gallery needs to improve..the organization I don't think is a major issue (aside from the 2 galleries thing) and I think monitoring post for constructiveness will greatly increase the quality of the posts, but drastically decrease the amount of posts. Normally that's a good thing but the activity is almost dead now and that may finish the job. I'm suggesting kinda the opposite, that there actually be some added "wiggle" room to what is considered to be a constructive post. I mean we all know that talk like "hey bro how are the kids, and I got a new car" should be taken to the pm's but the way it is now, a few people myself included feel like if you can't make a post directly and majorly art/artwork related then you can't post. I have a saying "Admire an artists work and you learn the techniques behind the work...Admire the artist and you learn the concepts behind the techniques." when someone says that's cool how did you make that I'll probably say Photoshop and Illustrator(or whatever the case) and that will be it. But if someone says hey man I like your style its futuristic how do you come up with this stuff I'm inclined to give more away I'm going to offer techniques help put them into the mindset I was in help them understand why I did things this way and not another way. If you can engage me on more than my techniques I'm happy to share all my knowledge. And I think that people don't do that anymore because there worried about their post being so constructive, the gallery needs that sense of community/family back. The ability to communicate and delve into other artist processes, to build that trust, friendship, admiration, and inspiration between artists that pushes everyone to that next level. Of course I'm biased but I think we have/had some of the best AK/Mods on the boards often b/c their artists themselves so I don't think something like this could ever become a spamfest like in the pre Dadric and Grafh days.

Speaking to the Artist of The Gallery out there, in the SaAma everything was separated and all you could do was open a one person gallery, start a shop or tag battle..that's it. We as a community raised the standard of the kind of art we produced, we as a community raised the standard of friendship and competitive rivalry, and what did we get...we got the walls broken down the separation between flash, photoshop, hand drawn, and 3d started to go away. We got Sotw, Iotw, Aotm, we got The Black Rose Cafe to discuss artistic topics that weren't tag of flash or 3d related. We turned a flash heavy forum into a home for all artists no matter the medium. And that's what we'll need to improve the condition of the gallery now..we had an artist from this forum that was in SlashThree one of the top Art Collectives in the world there's no question about the talent pool here I would go as far as to say AE is lucky to have us. We are passionate and loyal to this place till the end..this whole thing started with someone from the old days that was that bothered by the condition of this place now.

A suggestion to Aegis, why not get together with a few artist and create an extensive CnC breakdown create a thread in which you give visual and written examples of what's good CnC but give non-artistic folk the tools they need to better articulate what their eyes know is wrong. Explain Gestalts theory of implied motion, explain the Golden Ratio and Rule of Thirds and how following one leads to a more interesting composition, explain color theory and how color affects mood. Go into detail about space, shape, balance, scale, unity and other design principals so that people who want to give good CnC have the tools necessary to do so. Or create a workshop a place where maybe once a week people can submit something there working on and get specialized attention. A panel of more experienced artist can point out not just whats missing in that piece but in their progression as an artist. Where they can say your lighting isn't quite right you've made that mistake a few times and point them in the direction of real world lighting articles and information.

Forgive for the long post but as I said people tend to get very passionate about this place. And if there is one sentence in this whole thing that helps the gallery in one small way, I'll consider it mission complete. These are just my opinions and aren't meant to step on any toes so thanks for taking the time to read this.



Everest -> RE: Creative Art Section - Direly Needs an Overhaul (9/14/2011 21:01:34)

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm cherry-picking since I want to focus on only a small part of your post, but I think this sentence has a lot of truth:

quote:

I think that making CnC crucial would turn this place into one of those hardcore "GFX" communities that you can find thousands of on the web...


I do not say the following to belittle the importance of our CA forums, but what should be remembered is that this particular sub-forum is incorporated and integrated into a larger set of forums with many divergent purposes. Our forum-wide policies are designed to fit all of these purposes as well as they are able. This, I suspect, is part of the disconnect here - the CA, nor any other forum for that matter, does not have complete freedom. It's a price to pay for the benefit of being part of a larger community that has the potential to draw in many different types of people who signed up for this community for entirely different purposes.

Anyway, I don't mean this to discourage anyone. But I think it is necessary to explicitly state this, since I from what I've seen this disconnect is likely tied into some of the dissatisfaction among CA members I've seen here.



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