RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (Full Version)

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edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 16:40:54)

IMO it should have increased with every 11 support or something, they slaughtered the build again and how come blood lust didn't get a super high requirement to compensate for hybrid's 45


lol fail how did i get 45



Ashari -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 17:21:39)

quote:

Why have a balance team when you do nothing that helps, sorry for being so negative, but this is really becoming a farce. I expected a lot of changes from you guys and you have let me down. I am stunned that there has been no changes to the Tactical Mercenary skill tree. This is heal loop mages all over again, your punters are treated very poorly at times and when you look at the retention rate it is obvious that the developers and balance team are totally out of touch with the community in general!

We are planning both a rearrangement of the Tactical Mercenary Skill tree as well as several new skills including new ultimate skills for each of the evolved classes. However creating new skills means both coding effects and creating new animations so they take up a lot more resources than just changing a few numbers. You can expect the Tactical Mercenary skill tree to be re-arranged with the next release, however the new skills will take a bit longer to finish.

Believe me, trying to balance a class like TLM with its current skill tree is not something that's an easy task. I'll be honest, even with our current changes, I expect Tactical Mercs to still outperform some classes, although to a lesser degree than before. We do have plans to switch several skills out of the Tactical Mercenary tree for the new skills I mentioned, but something like that may be a few releases off. Art and animations fall on Nightwraith, so that's not something the balance team can push to happen any faster.

quote:

I don't get this, you have 6 classes they all have different skills, but yet all the statistics improve at the same rate for each class.

Well part of the next phase of balance will be to equalize the stats and then eventually skills. The Field Medic change was the first part of bringing Support in-line with the other stats. Things like the amount of block, stun, or deflect chance gotten from skills will probably all be adjusted in the near future. Making each class progress down a single (or 3 stats in your suggestion) would really be limiting the types of builds every class can use.


@edwardvulture: Hybrid will require 42 Dex at level 10, not 45. That's inline with the other passives. It simply starts at a lower number because we can't have a starting skill be unusable at level 1.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 18:14:40)

@Shari i understand your difficulty weakening the power of TLM i have made a multitude of re-arrenged Skill teams for TLM the core power skills can still be reached in combination with the highest success of removing two levels from the tree so i can't wait to see what magic you guys pull



Shadronica -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 18:24:18)

Thanks for your explanation Ashari.
I am glad that someone is not confused by forumites requests/complaints. It really is only a matter of common sense to filter the mud from the clay.

I like Goony's suggestion to make each class unique. Independent of the other classes. Different strengths and weaknesses is what is required to bring balance.

Other main battle factors like rage, deflects, blocks etc. should be minimalised especially at the levels we currently are. Down the road as we get to higher levels we will be better equipped to handle such factors without them determining the outcome of the battle.

Ideally this is the direction that EpicDuel should be taking IMO.

Currently it just appears to be so stagnant hence the frustration of many.



Midnightsoul -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 18:29:29)

@ashari
oh...so there WILLbe new moves for the evolved classes as the game goes through? so like, cyber hunter would be the cyber hunter we somewhat expect right now in the future as right now compared to just old moves. am i correct? oh, u just excited me even more. also, wat will field medic be like after the balance update?



Digital X -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 18:31:12)

I like the idea of new Ultimate Moves, a lot ^_^



PumKing -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 18:32:03)

@Ashari, i know you are not really at fault here with the whole Opedness of the TLMs and there obscenely powerful skill tree, but how do you expect anyone to take you seriously when the devs put the smackdown on so many other problems in OPedness in every other class quicker than the TLM class. One particularly good example being Shadow Arts, when it first came out it increased chance to connect, block, and chance to stun and crit, then a couple days later it was nerfed because that was simply too powerful, many people complained on the forums, and having actually looked up many of the names, it turns out more than half of the complainers were mercs, then after another couple of days the skill was nerfed to what it is now Another great example is artilary strike, a move that up until recently was a physical multi with the ability to ignore a percentage of def, many people complained, and proved how it was a very Oped ability, the classic bunker artillary combo which mercs still use, luckily with less effectiveness but it was never abolished in the ability to ignore def until the tlms came out, the devs finally made the merc class balanced, only to open the door for the tactcle merc to come in, because it would be far too obvious if the TLMs had a physical multi that ignored def when they have the ability smoke screen right above it, people would leave the game in bigger droves than they are now

the devs even nerfed some of the tlms abilites like poison grenade as well as hybrid armor, but a month later it was abolished and put back to where it was, but let's not forget one of the biggest things that people have a problem with, hybrid armor, all the other class power-ups all gave up the passive ability that really made their class, CH gave up blood lust, BMs game up reroute, but the TLM class kept it, the devs continued inability to establish balance is, for lack of a better word, obscene.

all in all, please quit telling us that the devs care, the community will not give you the credit you deserve because of the track record the devs work so hard to lower, until they actually get there stuff together and make actual balance in the game, no one will take you seriously



Eternal Dreams -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 18:37:27)

Maybe there will be something like Super Fireball for Blood Mage lol =P



Digital X -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 18:39:13)

If that's the case, i shudder thinking of Super Massacre [:D]



Wootz -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 18:55:17)

Super Massacre all the way?
Or better yet! TRIPLE MASSACRE!



Midnightsoul -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 19:04:08)

@pumking
thats why BM and CH basically switched. XD
the other stuff, u are correct except shadow arts. SA only increased deflect, stun, and block. when support mercs said it was too OP'ed, the deflect was removed. SA never increased connect, crit, etc.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 19:34:15)

@Pumking pretty much all other major balance calls where made before a balance team and thus the ED team fell into the Balancing by ear trap alot of game makers know about but still fall into.

Old system was a quicker fix but not as much of a balance as taking a sledgehammer to ones knee
New system takes longer but the results tend to be more fair then the sledgehammer to ones knee



Ashari -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 20:11:53)

@One Winged Angel1357: Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself. :D

I understand the frustration that this is taking a while, and yes we could just nerf TLMs by removing something like Reroute, but that would hardly be achieving balance, more like taking a sledgehammer to their knees (thanks OWA :P). One thing I don't want is to have to backtrack on rushed, poorly made balance changes.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 20:12:02)

I think I'm going to have to agree to someone who posted that we need 5 kinds of stats. Strength, Dexterity, Technology, Support and Luck. Besides, since field medic doesn't level up anymore, why not place an extra stat and that everytime you level up, you gain 5 stat points and 1 skill point.



PumKing -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 20:22:26)

I want to make it clear that I do not simply want to "take a sledgehammer" to the tlm skill tree, I'm not saying that I want a gaping hole in the tlm skill tree, I want balance, and while it is all well and good to say that there is a new system being put in place, it is still very hard to believe it. People have been giving wonderful and educated critism on how to balance out the TLM class, my problem is that nothing has been done about it period (that's right I say nothing because the hybrid and poison were returned. and on that note, I thought that it was rather unfair of the devs to make it so that that mercenaries got their hybrid armor lowered with the TLMs hybrid armor) Just small things like varying percentages is all I'm saying, or is it really that hard to only effect one class?

edited bit- want to mention that the last sentence above is a rehtorical question, it is not hard, they are in different sets of information, it does not take much effort to singularize them, in fact it takes more effort to have information classes put into a group, because otherwise you can simply coppy and paste into a new data file



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 20:37:00)

PumKing, a new stat would also mean having its own stat progression and when it comes down to determining luck factors, it would require some math equation to know its chance of happening.



Goony -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 20:45:38)

quote:

Making each class progress down a single (or 3 stats in your suggestion) would really be limiting the types of builds every class can use.


No, you fail to see what I was suggesting! Each class starts with different statistics, I'll stay on the theme of using a mercenary to discuss this...

Base Statistics for Mercenary Class
Health: 49
Energy: 41
Strength: 23
Dexterity: 19
Technology: 18
Support: 20

Within 3 levels of training those initial differences can be erased, therefore making all classes even in relation to statistics! There is no advantage or disadvantage associated to the statistics and then the defining difference becomes the skill tree... The current Tactical Mercenary skill tree highlights this, it has the best skill tree and has an obvious advantage!

When you say that it would really limit the types of build every class can use, umm, doh... It is really limited now!... I don't see that my suggestion is limiting build options, it's about balance! Forget balancing the statistics in relation to the random effects, you need to find a way to balance the classes...

Back in early Beta, before the influx of all the weapons and enhancements, people were able to use the statistical differences in weapons to create unique builds. Now, with the enhancements, it is really just a case of buying the best gear and class changing to the class with the most effective skill tree.

Let's say that Mercenaries got a modifier of 1.2 on strength, 1 on dexterity and support, and 0.8 on technology. Keep the minimum requirements, but have them for all skills. This gives each class a relative strength and weakness. If a class was too strong then the modifier could be adjusted or requirements lifted on a skill...

You dismiss peoples suggestions too quickly, I don't know if this is a lack of interpretation or straight up arrogance, but it gets up my nose sometimes!

I keep hearing complaints from Cinderella and Wiseman about how hard it is to address the community in general. Well I will tell you why it's so hard and I'll use a quote "If it hurts you are doing it the wrong way". Some people in this community know that I have a teaching background and I'll give you the basics about classroom control.

Use this method to express what you want to explain:

Who is it about?
What happened?
Where did it take place?
When did it take place?
Why did it happen?
How did it happen?

It creates clarity and understanding and therefore by using a strong basis to express what the goals or outcomes are eliminates the controversy. Communication is key and that is something that has often been lacking around here!



Lectrix -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 20:52:30)

The upcoming changes will be interesting, to say the least. I'll wait to see how everything turns out before I make my thoughts public. I will say this, though: while the changes may not be perfect, we're definitely taking a step in the right direction.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/8/2011 20:52:39)

@Shari i knew it would be a good day when i reread that line before posting i mean what is more fun then that comparison it paints an amazing mental picture. If that doesnt paint a good picture look at HLTM we got a sledgehammer to our knee and the Devs even admitted once it was a somewhat sloppy fix

@Pumking i dont think anyone in their right mind wants to see a class get messed up that bad and if it seemed like i was saying you wanted that to happen im sorry i wasnt but misunderstanding happen so whatever, we live we die we move on.

@Goony the mathematical system for classes would be great and i think the one you suggested 1.2x str 1x Dex .8x tech sums up some Merc builds pretty well



Laces -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/9/2011 2:25:01)

I like Goony's suggestion. Very interesting. However, it would take more than 2 months of balance testing before we could even consider getting it in.



Goony -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/9/2011 2:51:44)

Just had a healthy chat with one member of the balance team and I just want to apologise for the potshot about being letdown. Sorry!
Apparently there is a fairly comprehensive list of changes that have been proposed to be implemented...
Some of these should be discussed here with the community, but that is not my role and I will let the team discuss what they feel is relevant.

@Laces, there is really no easy fix. But the main issues I see are energy regeneration, the way the passives work, the way rage works, the crossover in skills between classes and not having any way to manipulate the effectiveness of an individual class easily... I could go further into writing up how the statistic modifiers for classes could work, but I have done that before and it is a total waste of time the developers will take the game where they want to go when they want to for whatever reason they see fit [8D]



T.600 -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/9/2011 4:23:36)

@Cindy You said that bugs were the cause of the update's delay, I wonder why there are no previews of the weapons that Nightwraith made?



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/9/2011 7:14:17)

@Ashari

Str TLM really doesnt require nerf , im losing against some str BHs and BMs , the requirements is enough , if you remove skills or etc. you will make TLM uped

Note:Im not saying this to protect TLM if you guys make it uped it will only cost me 900 varium to change class :P , even im very bored from it



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/9/2011 8:31:56)

"We are planning both a rearrangement of the Tactical Mercenary Skill tree as well as several new skills including new ultimate skills for each of the evolved classes."

So can this be, the new classes will have unlinked skills from the old classes so they can make adjustment to each of the new classes without affecting the other classes, which should have happen from the beginning.



Matgon -> RE: =ED= New DN 05/10/2011 (10/9/2011 8:47:23)

@above: Aren't the ultimate skills Massacre, Supercharge and Surgical Strike?

If yes then the new classes would still have the same passives and some skills from the other classes..



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