TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (Full Version)

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frogbones -> TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 13:00:39)

With the recent nerf to support TLMs, we have seen the rise of Strength mercs. Since their inception, tac mercs have always been both the easiest to play and get wins. Because of their skil-tree layout, making a build requires little thought, yet win percentages are often in the 90%s.

What do you think? Is it too "easy" to spam Strength and get wins as a Tac Merc? Do the other classes require more thought to play, yet get a lower win percentage?



PivotalDisorder -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 13:04:23)

Tactical mercs are having their entire skill tree overhauled, as well as a 42 dex requirement on Hybrid [might be in effect if it is just a typo] so no point judging them just yet.

[Update might be friday or the following massive harvest update]



Calogero -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 13:06:46)

Str can be easier to counter than Support builds so in that subject I think they made an improvement
I only see 1 more thing that needs some kind of a fix and that is ' Poison Grenade '.
Unlike Poison Strike, the Grenade has no requirement + higher DOT than the Poison strike.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 13:21:59)

I think Str TLM and Str BH require alot more strategy than the other builds , the ones just do smoke - strike-strike etc. they got like 80-85% the ones that use strategy have like +91-93%

I think thats why the other classes seem more bad than tlm , lets compare old supp TM(which most ppl think they are very strategic) and Str BH

Supp TM can do , Malf - Heal - Defense Matrix , spam gun and aux

Str BH can do , Smoke-Strike-Strike-Massacre , Smoke-Cheapshot-...-2nd Smoke , Reflex-Smoke-Massacre , Reflex-Smoke-Cheapshot , Strike-Strike-Strike-Massacre-Rage Smoke(best strategy against low def TM) also there is Emp-Smoke-Cheapshot => you can do all of these with 1 build which is very strategic i think

Also Str TLM uses Atom-Maul-Double Strike-Smoke-Frenzy with reroute it enables alot combinations

I find this thread also very funny , if str TLM dont use strategy you should win them with using strategy if you lose that means you also not strategic and spaming attacks.

And humiliating TLMs will not bring you any benefit if MODs nerf it another class will have more strategic build than others so its better for you to adapt it.



sylar67 -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 14:11:57)

^ ya but str bhz get owned by str tacts :) unless they get a lot of blocks from shadow arts witch is not happening at all even though bhz with high dex they get blocked and the low dex tact merc blocks doesnt get a block smoked and with shadow arts



frogbones -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 14:26:22)

You bring up some valid points, Turk. But have you faced some of the "new breed" Str TLMs? They have 140-155 Health and 100+ Strength. If they go first, the only chance you have to win is if you're a BH wtih tons of dex, SA, and you smoke them, and thus block most of their attacks.

For me, even with 96 dex and DM of +24, they still hit in the 20s. And trust me, yesterday I went through at least 5 builds trying to counter them as a CH. I have a decent record (14k : 4k) and have been here since beta. So trust me when I say, it has nothing to do with being outstrategized.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 14:33:54)

^

if a TLM do 140-155 hp and +100 str that means they should have low Def/Res and after hybrid typo is gone they will not able to reach 42 dex req to Max Hybrid , Low def also means low Dex that means with 96 dex you should do block i suggest you to use assault bot or Reflexboost(for BM and BH) to keep dex advantage



frogbones -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 14:46:46)

So what you're saying is that I need to get lucky (block) to win. But because the chance to block cannot be over 40%, the majority of the time I will not block.

Somehow I just don't think that in order to win I need to get lucky is balanced ....



sylar67 -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 14:59:24)

nice one turkish :) saying that the game is balanced when you say you need luck to win a class -.-



TurkishIncubus -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 15:05:05)

@Both above

First i didnt said you need luck to win , i said "low def also means less dex which means with 96 dex you should block"
Well i will explain it like im speaking with 3 year old ppl so you can understand better
Main idea of TLM weakness that frog talked about : "TLM do 140-155 hp and +100 str that means they should have low Def/Res and after hybrid typo is gone they will not able to reach 42 dex req to Max Hybrid"
And there is also other things that gives you advantage : "low def also means less dex which means with 96 dex you should block"

Luck is a part of ED , there is a reason that luck factors increase with some stats , its because of enable us to use strategies on them , i didnt suprised you lost against str TLM if you keep separating luck from strategy its normal that you have hard battles with str TLMs

I want to give an example , before new classes i was a BH and there was Str Mercs that do Stun + Zerker(with energy primary - Cyber Shillelagh) with loads of str that can 2 hit me , to beat them i was using Reflex boost , they had energy primary but still i was using reflex because Shadow arts + Smoke + reflex gives lots of blocking advantage and they have to use 90% primary attacks
I think it also a good example of how luck can be used as strategy.

@sylar67

i didnt said game is balanced , i think field medic nerfed too much.



frogbones -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 15:15:39)

Again, Turk, I understand what you're saying, but there are several flaws with it:

1) Only BHs have the Smoke, Reflex, Shadow Arts combo. So that only applies to 1/6 of the classes.

2) The max chance to block is 40%. That means that the chances of not blocking are higher than the chances of blocking.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 15:18:01)

quote:

First i didnt said you need luck to win , i said "low def also means less dex which means with 96 dex you should block"
Well i will explain it like im speaking with 3 year old ppl so you can understand better
Main idea of TLM weakness that frog talked about : "TLM do 140-155 hp and +100 str that means they should have low Def/Res and after hybrid typo is gone they will not able to reach 42 dex req to Max Hybrid"
And there is also other things that gives you advantage : "low def also means less dex which means with 96 dex you should block"


EDIT

Also i want to mention some more points , I think everybody know that this is a human made game , there is not godly forces that balance the game so

There is 6 classes with different skill combinations , its imposible to do that all classes have equal conditions against each other , its imposible in Technically - Mathematicly - Theoretically ... etc. :P

did you guys ever played as str TLM? if no than change to str TLM and see how other ppl beat them so you can return to your original class and beat them with same strategy.



InceptionAE -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 15:38:48)

Well, let me just start by saying, ED should STOP NERFING and just BUFF THE OTHER CLASSES. If ED were to buff the other classes, TLM's wouldn't have ever made 90% win rates since inception. It would've been more difficult. Also I heard ED will redo the TLM class. But keeping hybrid and reroute. =/

Anyways, basically the classes need a buff so they can match up to TLM's. In order to gain % by skill, not by luck or an OP class/build.



frogbones -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 15:42:51)

Good golly, Turk. It's not that difficult to understand:

quote:

low def also means less dex which means with 96 dex you should block


If the max chance I have to block is 40%, that means on any given turn I shouldn't block!

C'mon, man!



Wootz -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 15:49:30)

Shadow arts add aditional 10% to it. So it's 50%.



frogbones -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 15:55:22)

^

Even if that is true, which I'm not sure it is, all that means is there's ONE very particular class and build out of six classes and dozens of builds that has a 50% chance to block.

What exactly does that prove?



Wraith -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 16:01:51)

Umm Cyber has shadow arts.

Frankly mage is best made for tlms, they can simply toss up defense matrix and deflect the energy guns.



Wootz -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 16:06:26)

But, yeah. If you want a 50% block chance then ya' need a pretty good Smoke Screen, Maxxed Shadow Arts, and a huge dex advantage over you opponent.



Emptiness -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 16:10:50)

Well i think you are referring to my 155 health build, that build took a lot of trial and error to make, it may look like a smoke, double strike build, frenzy build, but it actually has a lot of strategy involved. It derived from my old build before the balance update, just with less strength and more dex/tech. my build surprisingly doesn't revolve around smoke, not just any player can just copy every build. For example someone copies my build, keep in mind they have the best weps, but if they don't know the strategy involved then the build is an utter failure. After this update tlms require more strategy then just clumping a build together at the last minute of course some more blancing is required since this game is still in the testing phase. You just can't win every battle maybe ch aren't the best against tlms, the games revolves around yin and yang or in other words every class is weak against another class, chs may not be the best against tlms but may be best suited to other classes.



Wootz -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 16:14:09)

Emptiness,
CH's are awesome!
And from the 155 HP builds I've countered or the builds with the HP around it, I dealt normal attack of 51.
CH's are awesome :D



goldslayer1 -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 17:09:37)

quote:

I find this thread also very funny , if str TLM dont use strategy you should win them with using strategy if you lose that means you also not strategic and spaming attacks.

i have to agree
alot of people say there are OP, but its just like the old merc stories
all talk but no one would go to the merc side to try out the builds and see how they loose.

other classes have been able to beat me.
heck even a lvl 30 CH beat me, and he wasn't lucky
i under estimated his strategy
but with all these complainers around ED im only under estimating about 3%-5% of the ED population



PumKing -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 17:20:41)

I don't know goldslayer, I've played aginst some srt TLMs that had 60+ dex, before any extra to be counted on the stat bonus from weps, unless you are sporting full on only energy weps all with high damage you get screwed pretty quickly, that hybrid armor only hinder your efforts, and they usually have there armor to add to res, it is pretty daunting, and the triple digit health is imposing as well, not to mention that they never worries about FM to begin with as they usually stick with frenzy



goldslayer1 -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 17:23:53)

@pumking
frenzy can be blocked
and it now requires support (aside from requiring a maul)
the build i had before this update is exactly the one i have now, however my frenzy was lowered by 4 lvls because of the support requirement
i usually used lvl 6 (as to me it seemed the best)
now its lvl 2.

and frenzy isn't exactly a stable skill
if u have tons of defense (a pop up def matrix by mage?) ur attack wont be high, and neither will the heal conversion.



nico0las -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 19:54:09)

Tact mercs aren't that Op. I beat them, usually, 70-80% of the time. Yes, maybe the support build was good, but it wasn't THAT bad.
What I fail to understand, and as Nightangel pointed out in one of his videos, is that they put a dex requirement on a physical defensive system. I want to see how it turns out, but it seems like...an interesting choice on the balance team's part.



rej -> RE: TLMs: Still the Beginner Class? (10/13/2011 19:55:53)

Its just as easy for bm's, bh's, and normal mercenaries to mindlessly spam strengh. the only difference is, they have inferior skills to choose from.



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