Healing debuff (Full Version)

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OverweightMan -> Healing debuff (10/15/2011 23:31:53)

Now that field medic doesnt improve with support, what do you think would happen to support builds, heal looping and anything else. I mean, this new update is messed up.



Angels Holocaust -> RE: Healing debuff (10/15/2011 23:36:29)

For once this game did something right. Field medic shouldn't be able to heal 67 with just 17 energy. This was a problem that plagued us since the beginning. Now that it's fixed this is one slow step towards redemption for this game, don't get me wrong there's still plenty of stuff that's wrong. This is just 1 solution to the many problems that it has.



AQWPlayer -> RE: Healing debuff (10/15/2011 23:42:01)

@Angels Holocaust
The problem was not the skill, it was the arrangement of the TLM skill tree. Healing wouldn't be a problem if TLMs didn't have hybrid armor+reroute.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Healing debuff (10/15/2011 23:43:25)

@aqw
whats that got to do with people abusing 130+ support?



Bunshichi -> RE: Healing debuff (10/15/2011 23:44:15)

I've still never liked that a lvl 30 with varium can heal up to 60 with a lvl 1 heal.



endtime -> RE: Healing debuff (10/15/2011 23:53:27)

Support is now totally useless, thus making strength builds the only viable build. It is ridiculous that strength builds can now heal as much as any other build. To revive the stat and create balance, ED should do is make guns improve with support. What the heck does strength have to do with the power of one's gun? Lightly pulling a trigger is just as effective as pulling a trigger really hard--in fact, lightly pulling the trigger would probably be better since pulling a trigger with excessive strength might jam/break the gun.



ngshuyi94 -> RE: Healing debuff (10/15/2011 23:55:22)

^ U make sense, if gun improves with support things wouldnt be so bad, lol. Because u can use ur strength every turn by striking while support, once every 3 turns.



AQWPlayer -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 0:03:15)

quote:

@aqw
whats that got to do with people abusing 130+ support?

WHen a TLM has insane support combined with reroute to let them heal loop and hybrid armor to protect them while they wait for the 4 turn heal, it becomes a problem.



BlueKatz -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 0:07:41)

The Support build still work and it's not bad at all. Mer and TM still use Sup. You just can't spam tons of Support anymore that's the point but you can use it on other thing

The only Problem is STR spam...again



ND Mallet -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 0:14:30)

@endtime Support useless? Even without Field Medic, you still have faster rage, aux damage, deflections, higher crit rates and not to mention several great skills that go great with support(Malf, Artillery, Defense Matrix). If one skill is the only reason a stat is good then something is terribly wrong with the balance of that stat. Support already does enough. It increases damage, increases the chance to deal extra damage, increases the chance to reduce 50% of a gun or aux attack and increases several skills all at the same time.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 0:20:48)

quote:

WHen a TLM has insane support combined with reroute to let them heal loop and hybrid armor to protect them while they wait for the 4 turn heal, it becomes a problem.

so? tech mage and ch can heal loop too.
except tac merc cant put out as much offense as tech mage unless they want to spend more energy.
which they dont get that much because of tanking.
and if they used it for example on artillery while smoke, the chances of him having energy for a heal after that is slim.
and if they had that much support only the aux and artillery is good for offense.
and artillery requires huge energy.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 0:56:58)

what exactly are you trying to say Goldslayer1? mages rated down in 5th place while tac mercs rated at no1.


ON TOPIC
support build isn't dead just the same as mages weren't dead when they nerfed heal loop. people like to compare how easy it was before to how it
is now and say it must be dead cause it isn't as powerful. or they judge it by the latest OP build's standard, which is as equally confounding.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 1:03:01)

quote:

what exactly are you trying to say Goldslayer1? mages rated down in 5th place while tac mercs rated at no1.

im saying that techmage is a much better heal loop than tac merc BEFORE the heal nerf.



PivotalDisorder -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 1:16:53)

can you elaborate on this statement then

quote:

except tac merc cant put out as much offense as tech mage unless they want to spend more energy.

seems to me tac merc has more cheap options to win than tech mage AND has frenzy for an additional heal.
if you are getting less energy than the mage, you must be doing more damage than you are taking so it balances out.
if mages had hybrid armour and mercs didn't then I would agree completely.



ND Mallet -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 1:17:42)

Mages lacked the ability to last long enough to heal multiple times. With Hybrid Armor, TLMs lasted longer thus getting more chances to heal. If someone hits that TLM for 50 damage then the TLM gets 15 energy. A TLM who plans on heal looping will not use any energy more than necessary. And just to let you know, Smokescreen and Artillery is a very powerful combo with high support. I can hit around 30-40 with just Fireball with my BM build and I doubt I have strength to compare to the average support of a Support TLM before the nerf.



BlueKatz -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 1:21:49)

TLM heal loop as good as Mage, maybe even better. People misunderstand the situation, it's tankier doesn't mean it regen less MP, it's the same. With HA TLM can last longer and wait for the cooldown



PivotalDisorder -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 1:31:13)

Goldslayer1 will defend tactical mercs to the death :) although he doesn't say they are balanced as much as he used to <3



goldslayer1 -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 1:31:49)

quote:

seems to me tac merc has more cheap options to win than tech mage AND has frenzy for an additional heal.
if you are getting less energy than the mage, you must be doing more damage than you are taking so it balances out.
if mages had hybrid armour and mercs didn't then I would agree completely.

well we're assuming the tac merc has 130+ support
if he does then he will most likely not have any str higher than 24
so his strike and gun will be weak.

then there is smokescreen, which runs on tech. not support.
malfunction runs on support thats why a tech mage with lvl 1-3 malf with 130+ support can malf 40 tech easily
ur not smoking 40s with smokescreen with that amount of tech at lvl 1-7 (probably not even maxxed with all that support)

also tech progression is lower than dex, so a 40 malf would reduce more resiatance than what a 40 dex would reduce to defense.
allowing more damage thru energy attacks than physical ones.

artillery to be at its best must be around lvl 8-10
that requires huge energy which could be used for healing.
now if u combine that with smokescreen and ur basically zapped out of energy with the base energy u started with.

tac merc might survive longer than mage, however they wont put up much offense if they plan on surviving longer rather than taking opponent out.

Deadly aim, it increase a tech mage energy gun, which combined with malf deals huge damage. mostly around 40-50 per gun attack.
it has less cooldown than the aux, and it costs no energy unlike artillery.

malf also reduces the smokescreen and robot damage, aswell as certain skills.
so a tac merc smokescreen would be reduce by malf.

tac merc heal loop might have frenzy however it will be a weak heal and a waste of energy.
with the ammount of str it has , and the maul requirements (btw there aren't very good mauls that dont give str and give tech dex and support only that are physical)

if tac merc were to have a good field medic, max hybrid
and a good reroute
it would have almost no points left for artillery.
unless u cut down ur artillery lvl, and cut down ur reroute lvl, ur field medic wont go passed lvl 2-3.
and u want to use smokescreen right? so ill assume a lvl 3-4 is good enough.

so yeah tac merc wont put out as much offense as tech mage.


quote:

Goldslayer1 will defend tactical mercs to the death :) although he doesn't say they are balanced as much as he used to <3

i dont defend the class to death, im just stating facts.
too many people here complain and complain but dont bother to go ingame and try making a build.

quote:

TLM heal loop as good as Mage, maybe even better. People misunderstand the situation, it's tankier doesn't mean it regen less MP, it's the same. With HA TLM can last longer and wait for the cooldown


read what i replied to psib


EDIT:
also tech mage has defense matrix which at lvl 1 can easily double the tac mercs defenses.
so tech mage only really needs energy for healing, malf, and sometimes defense matrix
now lets add that up, a lvl 5 field medic is 25 energy,
a lvl 3 malf is 18 energy, and a lvl 1 defense matrix is 10 energy
total is 53

now lets add up the tac mercs energy requirements.
lvl 3 field medic?
21 energy for field medic, max artillery 32 and a lvl 4 smoke for decent smokescreen (hardly goes over 30) 19 energy
= 72 energy total
now if u compare that with the amount of energy they get because of tanking (which is actually less)
tac merc requires more and gets less energy than heal loop tech mage.
altho if u focused on only healing then yes it will survive longer than tech mage.
but it wont put up more offense



BlueKatz -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 1:55:40)

Eh I will just make it this short.
Support Build. Still work (not common) just like old Sup Mer, old Sup Mer don't need Heal that often. 75 damage shot is enough, they don't use MP much so a decent lv 4 or 5 Heal is enough. They still have enough MP

STR Build. Can perfectly heal loop (there's even a thread about that) with 35+ Def and Technical to fill Res, do mass Heal and 32+32 weapon damage (saw it with my own eyes)

And frenzy is not even that necessary to Heal loop

Smoke reduce as much as Maf, just the base Tech is higher than Dex. You don't need a lot of Skill Point on Smoke and FM anyways as you can last enough. Even you get mafed enemy still waste 1 Turn (~11 damage down to 22 damage plus no rage and waste MP)

A full Sup Mage can do only 3 damaging hit and it has low def, TLM with Sup build can do only 2 but with double Def (not mentioned Technical) and have 40 more stats than Mage to do better Sup or high STR or just simple more Res

Anyways about the "Mage deal more damage" it will just depend on build, Sup have many builds anyways. But the fact that TLM deal good damage while can do Heal loop better (commonly STR Tank Heal Loop with 26+32 or 32+32, Sup are rarer but far better than Mage in 2vs2).



PivotalDisorder -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 1:59:49)

A mage with 130 support would be cannon fodder for a TLM with the same support. why would they have more strength if they not only have equal support but need to sink
more points into dex or tech for defences. TLM can switch hybrid armour, use technician and assault bot debuff to deal with malfunction. mages can only do defence matrix
or assault bot to deal with smoke screen. how is artillery a lot of energy when plasma bolt costs 1 more, overload costs the same and only AS actually scales with support.

if you want deadly aim I would be happy to swap for hybrid armour, so far DA is the only legit skill to back your argument up IMO.

quote:

malf also reduces the smokescreen and robot damage, aswell as certain skills. so a tac merc smokescreen would be reduce by malf.

you can boost smoke with technician [and counter malfunction] but you cannot improve malfunction with any skills. smoke lowers dex which helps you connect more and
helps you to block melee attacks, like robot for example.

If you want more skill points, why not bother with HA at all? making a successful build without HA would also be proof you are truely as great a mind as you like to point out.
but of course you won't, you hide behind HA with a heal loop build every chance you get. if using the most obvious OP build which has most chance to heal loop is classed as
great build making, you sir are the greatest. considering the state of mercs pre delta and of tac mercs now does not really prove that any of them were/are good players.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 2:12:50)

@blue

quote:

Support Build. Still work (not common) just like old Sup Mer, old Sup Mer don't need Heal that often. 75 damage shot is enough, they don't use MP much so a decent lv 4 or 5 Heal is enough. They still have enough MP

if their heal is lvl 5 their reroute is lowered therefor gaining less energy.
then if u want good offense u need a good smoke and artillery which already requires alot of energy.

quote:

Smoke reduce as much as Maf, just the base Tech is higher than Dex. You don't need a lot of Skill Point on Smoke and FM anyways as you can last enough. Even you get mafed enemy still waste 1 Turn (~11 damage down to 22 damage plus no rage and waste MP)

no it doesn't
make a heal loop build for tac merc and tech mage both with 130+ support and smoke screen wont even come close to debuffing as much as a lvl 1-3 malf.

quote:

STR Build. Can perfectly heal loop (there's even a thread about that) with 35+ Def and Technical to fill Res, do mass Heal and 32+32 weapon damage (saw it with my own eyes)

it can but not as good as a full on heal loop build.

check out one my builds, its tank, str, and heal loop.
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=19696605

quote:

A full Sup Mage can do only 3 damaging hit and it has low def, TLM with Sup build can do only 2 but with double Def (not mentioned Technical) and have 40 more stats than Mage to do better Sup or high STR or just simple more Res

a tech mage with 10 energy and that much support can double the defense the tac merc has instantly.

quote:

A mage with 130 support would be cannon fodder for a TLM with the same support. why would they have more strength if they not only have equal support but need to sink
more points into dex or tech for defences. TLM can switch hybrid armour, use technician and assault bot debuff to deal with malfunction. mages can only do defence matrix
or assault bot to deal with smoke screen. how is artillery a lot of energy when plasma bolt costs 1 more, overload costs the same and only AS actually scales with support.
thats not making much sense
a decent 21-26 for tech mage is enough while having a defense matrix that gives them 33-35 defense at lvl 1and no tech needed.

and ur talking about technician, and switching hybrid around and using assault bot as if its much arguement.
if u wanna do that to counter malf, go ahead. ur only going to see how its waste of turns and only giving mage more advantage and rage.

ur also leaving urself opened for a physical sword that the mage can have (or staff) and a bludgeon rage.

quote:

if you want deadly aim I would be happy to swap for hybrid armour, so far DA is the only legit skill to back your argument up IMO.
if DA is my only argument then i guess u need glasses to read right.

quote:

you can boost smoke with technician [and counter malfunction] but you cannot improve malfunction with any skills. smoke lowers dex which helps you connect more and
helps you to block melee attacks, like robot for example.


so what if u cant improve malf? ur smoke wont do more than 40s after lvl 4 even with technician.
and if u wanna connect go ahead, with 18-24 str ur primary wont be doing much. specially if i have defense matrix on


quote:

If you want more skill points, why not bother with HA at all? making a successful build without HA would also be proof you are truely as great a mind as you like to point out.
but of course you won't, you hide behind HA with a heal loop build every chance you get. if using the most obvious OP build which has most chance to heal loop is classed as
great build making, you sir are the greatest. considering the state of mercs pre delta and of tac mercs now does not really prove that any of them were/are good players.
hybrid is a tier 1 skill it will always be there.
u want me to make a good build without hybrid? ok how about Bh makes a good build without bloodlust?
or tech mage make a good build without reroute?
hybrid is a necessity to the merc class just like bloodlust, and reroute are to the BH and tech mage class.

to even say im not good because i use hybrid is stupid because im sure ur tech mage build has reroute just like mines has hybrid.


so far ur only argument was basically calling me noob, and making combos for buffing ur smoke and debuffing my malf. which are all waste of turns if u actually play against someone who knows what they are doing.

quote:

considering the state of mercs pre delta

let me guess ur one of those guys that said str merc (pre delta) is OP?
do i have to give another lecture on that too?



BlueKatz -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 2:28:56)

@gold I don't want to compare much about Sup Loop build of Mage and TLM because it depend on Build. However in 2vs2 Sup TLM is a lot more damaging.
And DM is not that effective because most of the time people will use other Attack type, it has like only 1/3 in real battle. HA is still way too good. TLM have Technical, oddly people didn't start using it.

quote:

if their heal is lvl 5 their reroute is lowered therefor gaining less energy.
then if u want good offense u need a good smoke and artillery which already requires alot of energy.

What do you mean? You just need lv 6 ReRound at max, 5 FM, 10 Multi, 10 HA and 2 Smoke (or 1 Smoke for RR). Smoke is not that important in Sup build, low level smoke save MP and make Enemy suffer by get damaged or skip turn to defend.

And STR Heal Loop is very effective in both offense and Looping actually. I wish I can remember his build. High Str, high Def/res, ave Sup, average HP low smoke and average FM with Frenzy and Atom



goldslayer1 -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 2:35:11)

quote:

What do you mean? You just need lv 6 ReRound at max, 5 FM, 10 Multi, 10 HA and 2 Smoke (or 1 Smoke for RR). Smoke is not that important in Sup build, low level smoke save MP and make Enemy suffer by get damaged or skip turn to defend.

then ur smoke is only around 20-25 dex debuff
which isn't that much for artillery and a waste since ur only using it for 1 attack.
still in the end ur still using way more energy than what tech mage uses. and tech mage can put out just as much (if not more) offense as tac merc while spending less energy which is then there for the healing.

quote:

And STR Heal Loop is very effective in both offense and Looping actually. I wish I can remember his build. High Str, high Def/res, ave Sup, average HP low smoke and average FM with Frenzy and Atom

so its like that build i showed u? or with more str?


@below drinda
that still requires alot more energy than ur heal does.



drinde -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 2:35:43)

@Bluekatz
Or 1 Surgical instead of 2 smoke for a handy 50% Rage reduce and life steal.

@Gold
You forgot to mention that TM's have to make enough for Defense and Resistance, even with armor, it only covers up 1 side.



BlueKatz -> RE: Healing debuff (10/16/2011 2:52:35)

quote:

then ur smoke is only around 20-25 dex debuff
which isn't that much for artillery and a waste since ur only using it for 1 attack.


Low Smoke is not bad at all. Your math still rely too much on Cost than Turn. Wasting a turn or not still damaging.
And you can use it for Gun or Primal (if your Aux is Energy than commonly Primal is) so not bad. Plus Robot, they have good damage for Sup build since Robot have more 14 damage than other base.

quote:

still in the end ur still using way more energy than what tech mage uses. and tech mage can put out just as much (if not more) offense as tac merc while spending less energy which is then there for the healing.

With HA you can save like 40-60 stat so Energy is not a big deal. But yes Mage use less. However TLM still have upper hand.

quote:

so its like that build i showed u? or with more str?

More STR, a little more Sup, a lot less HP, A lot less Dex but still good (guess Def around 28 29) low Resistant but use Energy Armor and he use Technical a lot (his Technical is not high but enough to negative the debuff)



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