RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (Full Version)

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Aere -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/23/2011 17:00:07)

I have way, way too many problems with this thread.

Non-Variums should not even be remotely close to Varium players. I'm not talking skill-wise, I'm talking equipment-wise. I know people who have dropped THOUSANDS of dollars to maintain a solid, overpowering advantage. And it should stay that way. There are non-varium players (Syfy as of about a year ago come to mind) who were even EMPEROR, with 80% win rates. Is that the best win rate? Would a varium player want that win rate? No. That's the price a non varium player must pay. While varium players pay with money, non-varium players pay with lower win rates and an increased reliance on skill.

Second of all, your worm/bird analogy is incorrect. Somewhere in there (Your posts are REALLY too long, don't spill your argument in a single post) you mentioned how without the worms who are non-varium, the birds will starve. Funny, I recall defeating a solid number of Varium players last time I played. Varium Players don't need non-varium players to fight against. I also know MANY varium players who would rather play against fellow Varium-ers, because it gives more of a challenge.

Third of all, these so-called 'worms' have been growing stronger and stronger. I have heard (I am retired now) that non-variums stand a much higher chance against varium players then they did last year. They can even change class now, which costs a varium player almost $10 in varium.

I'll stop here, I'd like to see what is said back. And how it is said.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/23/2011 18:44:11)

@Aere

First off, I like to say that you addressed some very unique and interesting rebuttals to my analogy. I'm happy to provide you with my feedback with your posts regarding such an issue and also clarify and articulate on important points that surfaced in my analogy and rationale.

To challenge your first contention:

Are you suggesting that nonvariums should be given a larger stat difference (equipment-wise)? I also like to point out that skill has lesser value in comparison to varium. Pair up a strategically well-rounded nonvarium player with a varium player with 40+ stats. Who will win the majority of times if they battled against each other? In this scenario, the likelihood for both the different candidates will likely favoured the varium player. That I'm okay with. But on average, winning against a nonvarium player shouldn't be 10 out of 10 times. That in my perspective is unfair. And of course nonvarium are underpowered: in this context they are severely underpowered. Nonvarium paid the sacrifice but such a sacrifice should never be in vain. We should not be penalized as users whether or not we want to pay or not.

To challenge you 2nd contention:


quote:

Varium Players don't need non-varium players to fight against. I also know MANY varium players who would rather play against fellow Varium-ers, because it gives more of a challenge.


The worm and bird analogy stands valid. As I like to point out, you are certainly correct with the idea that varium users do not need nonvarium users. However, it is important to understand that we indirectly need each other's presence to directly grow as a community of players. Simply, we're bonded contractually and ecologically. The bird needs the worm and the worm needs the bird. Consider another example: flies and humans. Humans need the flies as the flies need the humans. And why is this the case? Now, you may argue that my comparison is bulimic and it doesn't make any sense. Why do humans need flies? Do humans have use of flies and if so, what is it? And how does this correlation with flies and insects work out?

The reality is it paints a larger canvass that illustrates ED's history of pvp battling. Although the relationship derived from the fly and the human may not be noticeably, the fact of the matter is there exist a finite and delicate relationship between the two: they are both bonded contractually in an ecology that pressures them to become predator rather than prey organisms within an ecology for competition. You're right, humans in this example don't need flies directly (similar to varium users not needing nonvarium users) but also acknowledge the fact that they need them indirectly. Understand that this indirect relationship is stemming; flies are eaten by larger insects which are eaten by birds which are eaten by humans. In a sense , this could work out reciprocally: humans are needed to control the population of third and second order consumers which result into lesser flies being eaten by higher-tier consumers.

If the population of flies dwindles, the population of second and third order consumers in this relationship will dwindle resulting into less food for humans (in the form of birds) to eat. How then, I ask you will the ecology sustain itself?

The fact of the matter is we belong in a greater pyramid of organisms that interrelates all the members of the ecology. In a natural ecology, there exist more prey than predators and the balance as well as competition is fair among the two (not equal). Flip the pyramid up-side-down and this is the current situation of ED but far worse. Not only are we seeing more varium users but unhealthy competing between highly buffed users. This explains the source of all imbalance in builds such as support and strength abusers resulting into imbalance in the game in general.

If all the worms disappeared and are extinct remnants of imbalance, what then is the purpose of purchasing varium when everyone else is on the same playing field? If everyone else is a barium user, what's the point of purchasing varium in the first place?

Which brings me onto another point, this argument could also go in favour to why ED's player base is minuscule and hasn't grown in terms of population over time. After more than 2 years ( I stress 2 years) of marketing the ED franchise, implementing balance formulas, cool weekly updates, creating more modes and introducing whole variety of features such as warkills etc, why hasn't the amount of users increased proportional to ED's growth as a game? Why aren't the servers full? Also, I'm not arguing about the development of specifically nonvariums in the ED platform; I'm arguing for the development of the game and the community of ED. Essentially as I stated before, it is a wasteland for any new players to compete and come in resulting into withdrawal, boredom, and also inactivity from the game.

To answer your third statement:

If you've played ED since the beginning of Beta likewise myself, it is hard to say that we as a community have been growing stronger. Of course there may have been some ups and downs but arguable, we're still far behind in terms of stats compared to varium users. Also, to say that we have the ability of change classes and such is an argument one a different tangent of thinking. Of course, we have the ability to do those things but how many have us done that? Also consider that 50k credits is pretty expensive for the average nonvarium user. And we haven't even factored in enhancement costs and whatnot.



AQWPlayer -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/23/2011 19:10:55)

quote:

If everyone else is a barium user, what's the point of purchasing varium in the first place?

[:D]
@Aere
quote:

Third of all, these so-called 'worms' have been growing stronger and stronger. I have heard (I am retired now) that non-variums stand a much higher chance against varium players then they did last year. They can even change class now, which costs a varium player almost $10 in varium.

First, you said yourself that you have HEARD that we non variums are better than before, but that is just a subjective argument from some random varium dude :P
Second, even if I had 50k credits, I would NOT change class. People should change classes to try out other possibilities and have fun, not to be overpowered.
Third, If we changed classes, we would need to abandon all the weapons and armors we have bought, which also means abandoning the enhancements we had on them. Supposing I had 3 staffs and 2 enhancements on each, that would be...let's see...(14000+7000)*3=63000 credits. That is the money we would have wasted for changing classes, without counting in the armors and the enhancements we got on them. After that, we would have to buy a new armor and new weapons for that class, and then enhance them to be competitive, which again takes away thousands of credits. By the way, did I mention how hard it is for non variums to win battles and earn credits?



Aere -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/23/2011 19:39:55)

I'm not going to directly quote, because I think the feature is a bit sloppy. I'll just use the @ sign.

@AQWPlayer, looking at stats of recent non-varium weapons, they're far from terrible. And, people change classes more and more to win rather than have fun, because they have that luxury. I'm not sure if non-variums have a class changing armor (If they don't, I'd think they soon will), but I know for a fact that swords are usable by all classes. When you change classes, you can also sell your previous class's weapons, because unless one has a spare 50k credits (which is hard to get, as you say, for a non-varium), they probably won't be changing back any time soon.

@OmegaFaust, I'm saying if a player must play for free, they should increase their skill to allow them to compete. Not have that 'skill' just given to them. If you take a look at the better non-varium players of our time/past time, they all had more-then-decent ratios. The non-varium player shouldn't just be 'average' to beat a varium player; They should have the skill that enables them to beat the elites of the game. A dagger in the hand of a master is worth more then a sword in the hand of the apprentice. Those non-varium greats didn't lose 10 out of 10 times, nowhere near. Non-variumers of these times should seek to emulate that.

Onto the analogy, the fly/human relationship isn't quite accurate. In your situation, the eradication of flies would lead to the extinction of humans (More or less). But, if varium players ONLY fought against other varium players, there would be little to few problems.

Say this game became P2P, via varium. 25$ a month (Which is a REASONABLE price as of now to stay competitive, a 10k package every 2 months) to buy whatever weapons are currently out, and enhance them as you please. Sure, there would be the imbalance with Strength abusers, but game developers would update accordingly.

Epicduel's player base is miniscule because Varium costs FARRRRR too much. Which is why non-varium players should not be able to win, even more then 3/10 of the time. A 10k package, 50$, Can buy and enhance less than 3 weapons. 50$, of REAL WORLD MONEY.


Onto point three, non-varium users have gotten much more... competitive... compared to varium users over the years. Back in Dec '10, Non-Variumers wouldn't even stand a chance. Now, there is SOME amount of leeway.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/23/2011 20:38:55)

@Aere

Also consider that not everyone can emulate the success of another individual. You're looking at the breadwinners and not the community as an entirety. The average nonvarium player should at least compete fairly with the average varium player (notice I used "average" as a qualifier for both). Moreover, your arguing tentatively on a minority of users over a majority. Don't you find it disheartening when for say you find your teacher in a class room says to all his/her students "Look a so-and-so, why can't you study like him/her, why don't you understand this concept like him/her?" etc. Perhaps you had this experience; being compared indirectly to a superior whom you have no interests of emulating. This is my argument against your claim.

I'm going to bring the another comparison: A highly skilled nonvarium user vs. a varium stat abuser. Even though the nonvarium player may hone the necessary knowledge and skills to beat a stat abusing build, the chances are he/she will lose a majority of the time. In this scenario, builds and expertise don't matter; the amount of stats quantitively indicates whether such are successful or not.

To polish up your proverb, it is the wielder of the weapon and not the weapon itself that makes one a formidable foe. The apprentice can, over time and experience, rival his abilities to that of the master. But this experience is cumulative and doesn't happen overnight; rather this process of gaining experience may take an individual a very long one. But once you get obtain varium, you're instantly overpowering. Should experience be gratified and rewarded to a player who faithfully adapts within the pvp interface or not?

The human to fly analogy wasn't meant to be accurate- It was a mere conjecture to oversimplify the state of ED's imbalance. Of course, the elimination of flies won't result in the extinction of humans but by impairing the ecology by distancing the two on larger intervals overtime, you're destroying and also hindering the naturally ability for players to compete. Rather to compete, one must purchase varium. And this should never be the case: the experience should never be forced, rather it should be created within the already established pvp interface.

Also, I'm not quite sure whether to agree or disagree to your last statement:

quote:

But, if varium players ONLY fought against other varium players, there would be little to few problems.


This is why the ED player base hasn't expanded. Additionally, I have to say this statement is invalid. This is pretty straightforward; of course this is not a problem now but long term, it will be. Let's just say there's no nonvarium players, varium users are battling varium users everyday. People over time will feel that purchasing varium is unnecessary and thus may become withdrawn or inactive because to play a game the enjoy, they must pay more and more money to compete with users on the same level. What's the distinction of purchasing varium if you know you're gonna be battling against people the same level as yourself. Wasn't varium supposed to preside as an advantage over nonvarium users not varium users?

Let me defer you to another contention with your argument that ED costs too much. Consider World of Warcraft; better and much more tantalizing graphics at a similar price in comparison to ED. Only difference is that there are a greater amount of players in World of Warcraft than ED. Funny how you put it. As you stated, there would be an imbalance with strength abusers as an example, but it is the same imbalance that has hindered the game's development. How many updates focus on rectifying balance issues? I don't recall this during Alpha or Beta. Rather after the introduction of stats

To testify, as a nonvarium player myself, I have many memorable losses (at one time, I was giving out free wins just because there was no hope in my build). And most of the time, I'm NPC battling just cause I know I'm going to be a rag doll in 1v1. Even when I do get lucky, I'm called a noob. What does this say about our community?

[EDIT]

quote:

Onto point three, non-varium users have gotten much more... competitive... compared to varium users over the years. Back in Dec '10, Non-Variumers wouldn't even stand a chance. Now, there is SOME amount of leeway.


Could the same thing be said also with varium users? Look at them before and after; they became outrageously overpowering in comparison to what they were during the previous stages of beta and alpha. In comparison to the nonvarium evolution argument, I have to say that this reasoning is flawed. Variums have evolved much more quicker, rapidly and also unfairly in contrast with the development of nonvarium users.



AQWPlayer -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/23/2011 22:31:46)

If we could put this situation as an equation, it would be something like...
x=time
y=power
Variums: y=4^1.5x
Non variums: y=2*3x
Which one do you think is more powerful after two years, Aere?



DeathGuard -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/23/2011 22:48:17)

Great post buddy, if we were in Gamma Phase I would agree but certainly, we aren't in that phase, also I reached warlord as a nonvarium in gamma phase, it was hard, reall yhard for me to achieve but my ratio wasn't bad at all, I must say, since I did my own builds and use my strategy tips for competing against full variums, and I won many times. Also a proof nonvariums aren't that underpowered is my alt Dyssidia, his ratio is good and his equipment is also for his lvl, npcs? nope, just around 100 wins were of npcs no more, you must understand nonvariums can do it, also new nonvariums items already outpassed last varium premium weps, Jelly staff outdate my serpent warder, Headhunter outpassed my plasma acp. The reality is the gap is becoming less each balance update, you gotta keep on man, try new builds, do power hours and all that stuff that can help you and the basic thing is to think wisely, I know you're way to intelligent than me since you made really long posts that made sense in every word and I know you can do it way better than me so try!



Midnightsoul -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/24/2011 1:09:48)

@omega
perhaps u should work for a newspaper company or help make ed storylines. :D



Aere -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/24/2011 18:39:10)

@ Faust, I'm not saying that each and every non-varium player must become copy/pasters of the non-varium greats. There are more then one ways to skin a cat (Forgive the expression), even if you're using the same knife. If I saw a fellow classmate studying the same subject as I, but in a different way, I wouldn't necessarily jump to his style. But, if he consistently gets higher grades each test, I may have to think twice about it.

When you said the average non-varium player should compete fairly with the average varium player, I find that to be completely false. What would be the point of having varium if there was no real advantage to it? Varium players should win FAR more then half the time, when compared to a player of equal skill. That's why we spend the excessive amounts of money in the first place. If you averaged all players together, into varium and non-varium groups, are you saying that each group should have an equal chance against the other? Because that's completely unfair to the Varium players.

For the master/apprentice proverb, Varium is the sword in the hands of the apprentice. The master did not become a master overnight; He fought for months, even years, suffering many losses. That's the price to pay if you must stay non-varium. Those who pay will, and should, always have a significant advantage over those who do not. The apprentice with the sword will manage to kill the so-called master if he hasn't figured out how to deal with the weapon yet.

If there were only Varium players, purchasing Varium would NOT be an issue. Highly competitive players purchase varium ALL THE TIME. I remember back in mid-beta, players purchased a 10k pack the day of an update and would gladly do it again next week. It's not smart to compare WoW to ED: Epicduel not only costs more then WoW, which is a P2P game, WoW is better in graphics, content, player-base, update frequency, and arguably every quality a video game possesses. Funny how that could happen in an only P2P game?

To your last point, Varium users are also increasing, but the gap gets smaller and smaller. Of course they won't be equal, but non-variums have a stronger and stronger chance as the game progresses.

@AQW Player, your equations are flawed. That portrays non-variums getting INCREDIBLY weaker as time goes on, simply by year 2 they would have nearly a 0% chance of success. Which is not true.



AQWPlayer -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/24/2011 18:47:47)

quote:

@AQW Player, your equations are flawed. That portrays non-variums getting INCREDIBLY weaker as time goes on, simply by year 2 they would have nearly a 0% chance of success. Which is not true.

Of course my equations were flawed, cause I didn't even put much thought into it. But the chance for a non varium to win now is indeed about 0% for noobs and about 20-30% for experts.
quote:

Varium players should win FAR more then half the time, when compared to a player of equal skill. That's why we spend the excessive amounts of money in the first place.

The price you guys pay for your varium is none of my business. What's important is the balance. Also, variums can win battles unfairly by purchasing one varium pack, which is enough to purchase many weapons AND fully enhance them without spending time on the computer to earn credits or the overpriced credit enhancement system.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/24/2011 23:23:59)

gr8 post will read it soon and post more comments on it currently reading it. Ok luna moonfang 13 here yes i m the 2nd non var to make it to the all times 2v2. Basically i played as a non var merc from the start (well not actually i started as a bh then made a mage file then i made a merc file). here are some of my opinion.

Focus

when focus increased your atk dmg non var had a reason to have at least 3 focus or maybe more but since they changed that basically most non var do not bother bout focus and do not need focus. most non var turned to abusing stat abusing a stat is the only way a non var could survive in ed(well npc helps but not many people know wth is npcs as there is no tutorial). The devs are trying to stop the varium from abusing stats by putting requirements here and there yet the devs do not know they are killing non variums in that process of destroying abusing stat builds. chance of a non var getting a robot form arcade is well random. There no all credit robots available in game so focus is a useless stat for non variums.

Varium non varium gap

Well the gap is not that big well in 1v1 but for 2v2 well that is hard to say because 2v2 is too random. In jug most non vars without robot can’t do much(unless u are a bh or tlm with full enh). varium players are supposed to have the edge but not to the extend they can trash almost every non var. most non var do not have full enh and that is the main problem. Enhancements are the major cause of this non var-varium unfairness.

Enhancements

Enhancements ya people said it helped ed progress but i say it made things worse. Enhancements are basically a must have if u want to do well in ed as a non varium. the problem here is the enhancements cost huge amounts of credits. it take a long long time to farm credits a non varium. yes u can argue there is power hour an there is npcs a.k.a free 15 kills= free at least 500 credits per hour but varium farm that even faster because the can like 3 turn most npc and take just hmm 15 mins or lesser to finish all 15 npcs. Note most non var do not know wat is a npc and the fastest i got when i used my lvl 33 bh was 14 mins yes less than 15 mins but she has almost full enhancements so that technically does not count. Most non var do not have full enhancements or any enhancements at all.

Mistakes made at low lvls

Well mistakes made at low lvl will result in wastage of credits. Wastage of credits will result in not being able to get good weps. This is the main problem of most non variums. Most low lvls are non variums as it is a waste to buy varium at low lvls. Most non varium payers turn into varium because they did a serious mistake when they were low lvl. This is good for epicduel because they gain more money but it is not the right way to gain money. Makes me thing that the reason y they do not bother to make a tutorial in the first place.

No tutorial

Ed has basically no tutorials at all. -_- yeah no tutorial when I first played Ed which was round dec 09 I did not know what a npc until I reached lvl 23. It took ages to lvl up as I keep on getting trashed as I spammed energy thinking it was good I finally gave up trying to fix my bh file and made a new 1. Most new players which enter ed are clueless and will still feel clueless as there is no tutorial wat so ever. As said above it make me think that the devs are purposely not making any tutorial to just gain more money.

In all I think that there are things which can be improved on to make the gap between non var and varium better. Making enhancements static once it goes above 6 slots will help. A tutorial will not hurt and a non var all credit robot will be gr8 and ballyhoo when the hell are they making her come to Ed.



Minus123 -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/24/2011 23:41:54)

^
Agreed, there needs to be a tutorial. I actually didn't find out about npc's until I was lvl 28, and it was a little too late because I had to go in 2 vs 2 with outdated weapons. (Cept for mjolnir)

And I had no clue what's what all the way to lvl 15 or 20, where I just relied on str and double strike.

And ya, focus, basically useless to non var's. Even most who have a bot don't bother with focus.



AQWPlayer -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/24/2011 23:50:14)

@luna
Just to add, 50 varium is NOT equal to 3500 credits. And 900 varium is not equal to 50k credits either. With the enhancement system, 1 var=70 credits, which is more than two wins for just 1/50 of one enhancement slot. And with the class change system (I don't really have a problem with it as I never change classes), 9 var=500 credits, which is still unreasonable.
P.S. Again, the varium price is NOT my concern. It is you who decide wether to buy varium or not. If you decide to purchase varium, you do so to support the game, not to break it by driving non vars away.



ur going to fail -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 0:27:18)

I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to read your posts for I truly don't have the time right now, I will eventually read itl I am no child, but from my point view: Non variums have about 91 points (stat mods) for them to use in total if you add it all up with enhancements. Variums on the other hand have about 119 points total. Note that these #'s were made for non-var's: cyber cutlass, head hunter SMG, carrierzooka, new city guard. var's: delta destroyer, kurz elite, eggzooka, founder armor. A 28 point advantage.. Hmm... does it sound fair to you? It varies on many levels.. My opinion: I have met many really good f2p's and I seriously think that if they even a 10 point advantage over me, that they would win by a landslide (I have varium) but in the end.. Profit wise.. I don't think it should because not every varium player has up-to-date items and not everyone is fully equipped. For example our dear friend plasma ACP (total: 22 points) recently got out done by head hunter SMG (total: 22 points) .. Come on people. Yes I know plasma ACP is a level 31 weapon, but look at if you were making the game.. Why would you pay more for less? I'm sorry, but I have to stop here. Later on I'll help you guys out.



PD -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 0:40:00)

I didn't have to read any (Read it anyways, but that's besides the point) of the post to know that none of what you said are the source of the actual problems. The Source of the problems comes from the Stat inflation and Stat values (The science of how they work with each other are the stat values) as well as stat amounts. No skill is actually good without the stat points behind them that make them good.

As I've said countless times, because money is fiat, there is no actual value and therefore you can't actually call non-variums underpowered in relation to Variums (And vice versa with overpoweredness).

You have to take the problem HOLISTICALLY and not as SEPARATES. Why do you think there is a gap? It's the stat points. Why are the stat amounts that are offered obscene? It's the math and synergy that has to be looked at.

A Better question to ask is, "Do any of you people ever look further into something than what is the physical symptoms of something?"

No. None of you have. If anyone did we won't be in this mess.



xxomegafaustxx -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 3:41:00)

@Aere

You're confusing personal aspiration to individual potential. Of course if one chooses to emulate the success of the individual that is up to him/her. But as I like to point out, everyone has a different standard of success whether it is not losing once, twice or perhaps 10 times consecutively during pvping. As time goes by, people may have different goals than prior but the fact is they still have the ability to change their destiny. I don't need to become like him/her to become successful. Rather, I become my own-self, I recognize my potential as an individual, and make my dreams and goals happen. In a classroom, you have the tools to become successful. In order to become successful, one does not need to emulate. To the nonvarium greats as you say: who did they emulate to become successful? Who did the first one emulate? No one.

I would have to disagree with you once more. I'll say this with once more; proverbially, it should be the wielder of the weapon and not the weapon itself that makes a player a formidable foe in a game. I could have a spoon or sandwich against your taser for all I care but the skill I've acquired through personal experience, hardship and also personal endeavour allows me develop and evolve the skills necessary to hone and master a range of versatile and unique weapons. In the hands of the master, anything is deadly, even my sandwich so to say. Yes in time, the so called "apprentice" who holds the sword may learn how to use it better, but this should in no shape or form discredit the master's strategies, skills and expertise who have developed and honed with patience, experience and above all an open mind to adaptability. Say a varium "noob" (amateur) decides to use (with no knowledge of the pvp interface) a strength abusing build against a nonvarium user who acknowledges this weakness (who has experienced and dealt with such builds) and uses the appropriate build to combat that.

I ask you who should win? The one that paid or the one that used a better build?

The reality of this is both should have fair chances of winning (noticed I used fair as a qualifier); it is because paying should preside to at least some advantage whereas one's strategies should also be formulated in the success of a character. But in this example, the varium user is not as knowledgeable and lacks the proper skills and understanding of builds whereas the nonvarium competitor doesn't. Strategy should have at least some value if we're talking pvp. This encourages people to create different builds because ultimately it is one's strategy that champions over the opponents. This is like chess except the varium user is given an extra knight to employ. The advantage at the start of the game does no manifest victory over the one who didn't but rather creates an atmosphere that is challenging to both the players.

Now consider the second senario but lets say the varium user got a 40+ buff in strength. Can the nonvarium player who has close to none of these enhancements compete against that? Here strategy is rendered useless; because the amount of stat abuse over piled by the varium user has an overpowering. It doesn't matter if the nonvarium utilizes the proper build because it'll always succumb to the far-more-enhanced oped build. This is like chess on steroids; the varium user is given an three extra Queens which is more than enough to win the game.

Conclusively, the player who uses the strength abusing build will find prove victorious and will continue to adopt it whilst the nonvarium player will find his build strategies to be futile. This is were imbalance is derived; the GAP encourages monkey-see-monkey-doo builds, less variety of unique builds as we seen b4 in alpha and beta forcing nonvariums which much compromised builds hindering creativity and strategy. ED as I see it is fostering a "spend more to win" it game not a "pvp strategy platform".

To digress momentarily from this subject, in regards to your first point, notice I stated "compete fairly" which does not necessarily imply the fact that varium players will lose to nonvarium users all the time. Of course, they should obtain an advantage but that advantage should never be too large. Varium now has a inflated and pronounced effect on a user (you can tell clearly by the distinction) because of the amount of stats allocated by the user can be used indefinitely and freely without penalty or abuse (encourages oped builds). And it is because of this, varium users have a way easier than the average nonvarium user who must farm for many intensive months just to compete.

I'll ask you again now that you put it into context; Should the master in the scenario you described be penalized for choosing a path that he finds to be more challenging or more difficult? As you spoken previously in one of your posts I quote:

quote:

I also know MANY varium players who would rather play against fellow Varium-ers, because it gives more of a challenge.


Have you considered playing as a nonvarium user as a challenge? Have you considered playing for 2years or so as a nonvarium lvl 34 user? Funny how someone asked for a "real" challenge.

Additionally let me defer you to another contention: What is the point of purchasing varium if the varium you purchased is used to compete against varium users? Don't you find this reasoning flawed? You're paying a game just to compete with others who have paid. Similarly this may be analogous to purchasing airplane tickets. A man pays more money (or so he thought) than the average joe just to get on the plane first on onto your destination. The airplane company has promised you the first class seats, personal luxury, and also tasty food accompanying your purchase. He thinks wow, that's a great deal! So off he go, walking heartily with a big smile and big bobby eyes.

But dishearteningly, he sees that others have done the same so in a sense, he has embroiled in a much greater conflict of higher competition than he has ever expected. Where initially he thought he would had a "clear slice of the pie" deal, he finds out he needs to pay more money to exercise the luxury he was promised before hand and to "distinguish" himself as a more credible candidate to get the deal. This is the argument I'm voicing: the man in this scenario should not be cheated where his initial intent or thought was to obtain a leverage with the average joe. Rather, he must compete with the elitist group who he'll find to be much harder: Either he conforms with the situation and prepares to make a expensive sacrifice or if he chooses not to exercise an expensive deal and goes to another airplane offer.

This is how I see it now; varium users are trying harder and harder to compete against varium users resulting into incredulous spending. And I'm also speaking for the behalf of varium users; they're working way to hard to compete in the PvP interface; nobody should pay more than $30 weekly just to play a laggy flash game with constant patches, bugs, and questionably performance.

And to support my rebuttal I quote:

quote:

If there were only Varium players, purchasing Varium would NOT be an issue. Highly competitive players purchase varium ALL THE TIME.


But how many players are willing to spend such sums of money? WoW is comparable because I know the money I purchase will sustain itself over a period of time (whence I get to indulge in the features and the game experience) whereas ED I don't. I don't need to play WoW but the comparison is resolute. As you used in Beta and Alpha, was that varium purchased the sustainable up until now? Look at previous examples, like Zeuszooka, Nautical Sharkzooka, Lightning Rod, etc. Where did that varium go, down the drain?

Of course the game cultivates an elitist feel but again you're focused tentatively less than a quartile percent of users who embrace this. To correct your fallacy, not many people play competitively, some play for fun. Who wants to pay to remain in that top percentile? A few can actually commit to that level because some of us play ED for leisure time, for socialization, release stress, etc. AND not many can support this lifestyle? I can personally testify to this as many of my close friends and varium buddies stepped down once they saw that the promos were getting too expensive, lame, and a "rip-off" to their original purchases.

I'm not going to write more since I literally fried my brain on this subject. I hope you will at least take some of what I said into consideration.




Aere -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 19:55:02)

Primarily going to reply to AQW's post here, because Faust's posts require a longer thought process, which I do not have time for at the moment.

You're pulling statistics out of thin air man :P Syfy won over 80% of the time, if I remember correctly. JariTheMighty has probably a similar (Maybe 50-60?) ratio.

$50 dollars = 1 10k package.

Let's check out the Harvest Reaper, a good in game item, but not even the most expensive. 1,200 varium off the base, +9 enhancement slots. Total of a bit less then 3k varium. To put that into monetary terms, that's around 17 dollars for a SINGLE WEAPON. I'm completely ignoring the credits the come along with the package, and which are needed for the weapon. The weapon is not even that great, and will become obsolete by the next month.

Balance will never occur without Varium prices becoming less steep, which has been argued for since early Beta. Otherwise, it's just not fair.



nico0las -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 20:01:24)

Like omegafaust said, it's like a bird and a worm. We need each other to survive, but that doesn't mean that the worm is torn apart every single time, it simply means that, 60% of the time, the worm isn't so lucky, but there are exceptions.
To say non-variums are weak is a sickening lie. Doctus, for example, is almost a Grand Emperor non varium, who has been seen on the daily leaderboards several times with a 100% win rate, at 260-270 wins. New hope as well is the all time 2v2 champ, and I don't think she spent a cent on this game.

Should non variums be able to compete? Yes. The question is if they're smart enough to do so.
Many non variums lose because their builds make no sense. Imbalance is ultimately the majority of players who simply can't come up with a build to beat the oppression, in this case the TLMs. What's the difference between the players mentioned earlier and the masses? The ability to build and succeed.

This dispute between variums and non variums comes down to how hard it is for someone to come up with a successful build. Unfortunately, that build is proven successful, abused, deemed OP, and destroyed. Is a varium player REALLY better than a non-varium? Does the advantage in gear make you better?

I just hope you all understand there's a difference between being good and having the best gear.
A professional soccer player wears the best gear, clothes, and cleats. Now, just because they look good and are famous does NOT make them good. I'll bet there are kids in A Rochina (the largest favela in Brazil, where my family originated from) that could destroy these so-called "world champion soccer players" in a match.

To summarize this text above into two points, I say the following:
1: Non variums are perfectly able to compete. Whether they're smart enough to do it is another story.
2: Varium does not make you good. I doubt comical, or fay, or any other player on the leaderboards (1v1, 2v2, and juggernaut alike) got there using only varium. There's a skill factor involved.



AQWPlayer -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 20:16:26)

@Aere
Actually, the weapon only costs 1200 varium. The 9 enhancement slots are just an extra, but many variums decide to pay that extra to be OP and use it as an argument that they pay thousands of dollars int his game :S
About this:
quote:

Balance will never occur without Varium prices becoming less steep, which has been argued for since early Beta. Otherwise, it's just not fair.

I completely agree.
@nico0las
I'm not sure about what you're saying, but whatever build I make, regardless if it is nooby or awesome, it has no chance to compete against full varium TLMs with all those enhancements and stuff. Reason is, I can't abuse enhancements as they do (didn't have any enhancements before, now I have 2), which renders strategy and build almost useless.



DeathGuard -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 20:23:24)

@AQWPlayer: Check my char page and my equipped items, just my armor is varium, then all of my weps are credits(nonvarium) and I can compete against full variums and win them, I got enchancements by just using credits, around 3/4 enchancements on my weps and I go on, also most of my varium items becamed outdated and have to change it for the new nonvarium weps. It is possible to compete being nonvarium



AQWPlayer -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 20:46:12)

@cyberbakio ryugan (I still like your old name :P)
Well you got 3/4 enhancements, and I got only 2 in total :S
And I compete as well, but the problem is the chance to win. When I face a strength TLM, I lose regardless of who goes first, and my only hope of winning is to pray that it is either not a full varium or a low level. (or not a strength build, cause I still have a chance against poison builds)



igfod13 -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 21:06:00)

The gap is not the problem. The gap, IMO, is actually fine between non-var and var.
As a fully enhanced non-var mage, I assure you that most battles are win-able. Is luck needed? Sometimes. (Which is why it ticks me off when people complain about luck. It's just probability, not anything special.)
The problem is really enhancements, and the lack of non-variums that fully enhance. Enhancements are what create the real gap. Even is someone does become fully enhanced, its still incredibly hard to change to new weapons. (No credit enhancement sellback).

-okdude



Jatar The Legend -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/25/2011 21:16:12)

With the last update, I thought that the dev's did well in terms of providing new weaponry/equipment for the non-varium players. I think that we are progressing towards more of a credit friendly world (Because of things like credit enhancements, credit class changes, etc.), but varium should still somewhat reign.
People who spend money for a game like this SHOULD have an advantage. However, how much of an advantage continues to still be a problem that I believe the staff of EpicDuel is continuing to work on.

Very long, but well written and put post.

Jatar

@OK dude: It is my belief that enhancements were A) an expensive way to make your character better (Ripping of players everywhere to stay competitive) and B) One of the worst Ideas ever to come to ED. To buy and enhance one varium weapon at a high level, you must pay roughly 2,500 varium (TWENTY Dollars), for a graphic that in a couple of months will soon become obsolete. That is my problem with ED.



Deimos... -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/26/2011 0:14:37)

You guys should probably read it because in the middle it tells a story about flowers and tells why it's hard to close the gap. Also he changed it from worms n birds to flowers lol but I liked the story it was cool took me a long time to read = good I need to burn time and omfg tell me about it. When I was non var I didn't even know about npcs until I joined legit! Then I got var and started owning. I 2 hit all non vars except for some but I'm still a noob it's just cuz I have str build. I'm emperor now but bad wl cuz no npcs and i still don't farm. Actually i don't even play anymore i just read Ed forums when I'm waitin on my other game



zion -> RE: Flowers among the thorns (Nonvariums Underpowered). Are you a flower? (10/26/2011 5:53:37)

Enhancement prices should be slashed in half at least. Active Varium users should be spending ONLY CRREDITS on enhancements. Varium should only be for the really lazy/rich players, who want to have OP chars with no effort.

And when people calculate the power difference between var and non-var, they are leaving out two very important factors:

1) A Varium armor doesn't just provide more stats. It provide +2-3 def/res as well.
-To make up this difference you need 10-15 more stat points.
-So even a fully enhanced non-Var (which is only a few elite players) is really >40 stat points behind which is a full 10 levels - this is unacceptable.

2) Robots are Varium only (THE CHANCE TO WIN A BOT IN THE ARCADE IS NEAR-IMPOSSIBLE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SKILL IN ED) - and create two huge advantages:
-The ability to use a focus build.
-The ability to somewhat-nullify a debuff without the need for defensive skills.

To succeed in PVP Varium players can FOR ANY CLASS:
1) Use a 5 focus build
2) Use a support build
3) Use a strength build

Non-Vars can only:
1) Smoke Str build for 1v1 using BH or TLM (if you have 50K credits lying around)
2) Support abuse TLM (if you have 50K credits lying around) for 2v2
AND ONLY IF YOU ARE FULLY ENHANCED

Otherwise, all a high level f2p can do is NPCs.

The only opinion here is the enhancement pricing, everything else here are laid-out facts based on a ton of experience and knowledge of the game.



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