Charisma as an ED Stat (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 21:01:54)

I was thinking, if we could cut away from ridiculous numbers of stat points, after revamping the stat point distribution layout whether it be by fixing enhancements or stat limits themselves... could we introduce charisma as a stat in EpicDuel? I do not want people supporting me or not as this is a DISCUSSION.

In my opinion, charisma could be used to divide robots/pets from technology and affect different skills. In this way, technology can be fixed as I see very few professional players conceding technology as their trump-card. The stat itself mainly helps tlms endanger their smokescreen or something weak like EMP (take it from me, EMP barely irritates me, whether I was a mercenary or blood mage). In serious cases, technology can be used for ridiculous mage strikes or surgical strikes. But aside from power abuse, technology isn't really wanted.

Again, I think charisma would be an appropriate path to unscramble the confusion which is stats like technology or support that are loaded with perks but not much base to it. Divide and conquer or distribute to ease would be appropriate phrases for adding charisma as a stat to this game.



Chosen 0ne -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 21:03:12)

It would be hard to get focus, lol.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 21:10:58)

Disagree. Another stat would be very difficult and complicated. Besides having a balanced build would be way to hard if not impossible.



Stabilis -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 21:13:48)

Focus is an expensive stat, a minimum of 100 stats required in total, and a maximum of 180 stats required in total for level 5 focus. Not to mention how it standardized stat use and seized up health totals.

Isaiah, did you know that everytime you level up you get 4 stat points to use, and guess how many stats there are? If we added another stat type, we would still do reasonably well with 4 or 5 stat points each level up.



ND Mallet -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 21:16:50)

They can't just add a new stat because it would require them to rework the entire game. They would have to recode Bots, and each and every single item that gives stat boosts. Plus they would have to spend several weeks testing it out to make sure it didn't break Bots and make them OPd or UPd.



Stabilis -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 21:21:15)

That is true, and is why ED simply put is destitute for more coders.



ND Mallet -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 21:33:59)

@green First off, it's probably very unlikely that there are enough coders that actually need jobs to be able to fill in the holes needed for coding a new stat in game. Few people ever learn coding anyways. Second, they would all need to be trained first off before they could just jump in and code a game. Coding languages are different from game to game. They could have the same coding language but both scripts be vastly different. And third, even with all these people now helping code it would still take a long time because they would have to test and set standards(which are already underway of being set) to incorporate the new stat. Even if they had thousands of coders, it would still take a long time. Too many coders would cause arguments as well because some will want it done this way and others will think that maybe this amount of Charisma is too much or some other opinion they can debate over.



Retrosaur -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 21:38:10)

I can't see Charisma going hand in hand with robots. Charisma...with robots? Makes sense with pets, but not robots. Possibly making "Focus" a stat within itself.

@ND
With thousands of programmers, you could get it done relatively quickly. The thing is, teaching the programmers the syntax, the variables, the methods, everything that goes into a game takes a while to do. Everyone's style of programming is different, and coders have been trying for years to make code more easier to recognize and decode. JAVA, for example, is a very user-friendly programming language, and it's very easy to understand it. But understanding what someone else writes may be different. Maybe how they code a stat for example, "Technology", they may write technology as "var techo = 1", and no one can understand what it means.



Stabilis -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 21:56:28)

And EpicDuel would be difficult for people to code because?? When I was looking at Hudelf's training timeline, it took him approximately one month or less before starting to work. "Too many coders would cause arguments" I think you should look at WoW's staff. And besides, they would have someone helpful like Titan or Nightwraith for advice, I'm sure it would run smoothly. The boss gets to tell what the coder's task is, unlike being a project manager.



ND Mallet -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 22:06:26)

"Too many good cooks spoiled the goolash." We could everybody in the whole world trained and coding this and it would still take several weeks to happen. Those new people hired wouldn't be able to test out balance because they have no idea what would be balanced. And you still have to train them, organize them and work out just what they need to fix and add to. They can't help with statting weapons aside from putting them on the weapons after it's been decided. Just because WoW has a large staff that doesn't argue doesn't mean everyone can have a large staff that doesn't argue. Opinions are different from person to person, and when people start stating them, people start opposing them with their own. It's bound to happen with a large group. And not everyone gets along with everyone else either. Personalities clash all the time. I'm not saying large groups of people can't get along, I'm saying that it's possible for things to get out of hand with a large group.



rej -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 22:19:00)

Doesn't this belong is the suggestions topic?



Retrosaur -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 22:23:04)

I have to agree with ND Mallet:

This is taken from Notch (Minecraft founder)'s tumblr:
quote:

Some people have asked me why we don’t hire a lot more programmers to work on Minecraft. The answer is that I think that would be an incredibly bad thing to do.. or at least that it WOULD have been an incredibly bad thing to do. One reason why Minecraft has managed to get as much personality as it does it that it’s only been a couple of fairly nerdy game developers working on it.

At first, it was just me, and the game really represented what I thought was fun. Later on, Jens joined in and added his own personality to the game in a way that fit really well with what I had done. Naturally, we took in a lot of external input (especially from players, thank you all so much!), but the end result was still filtered through us, making sure it was personal.

I guess in some sense, this is a big reason of why I like “indie games”. Or games made by small teams, rather. I’m growing more wary of using the term “indie games”, as there are too many definitions of what that means… to me it means a game made for the sake of exploring some game idea, made by a small team that wants to express themselves.. But I digress..

On one hand, I could see how Minecraft has at this point grown to a level where it could use some extra hands to work on it. There’s a lot of infrastructure that needs to be done, and a lot of the tone for the game is already set. On the other, I worry that having too many developers on it could water it down. On the third, it could also mean less “quirks” (bugs).. on the fourth, some of these quirks are what give the game a personality. Score: &e0. And so on.

I could argue back and forth forever, but what I really want to do as a developer, is to work on games in tiny, tiny teams. It means less compromise when it comes to design. It means more freedom when it comes to implementation.



Stabilis -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 23:07:16)

^ That guy sounds pretty self-centered when he's not being arbitrary if you ask me.



BlueKatz -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/19/2012 23:42:17)

Actually coding, especially in Flash doesn't work that way. From what you guys post I think you kinda image coding like making a ship or something, but it's not. Coding is just stupidly hard (I know very little about Flash) and from my experience, if you work on some code, you must go on with it, you can't let other help you with that coding because there's no way, no way you or other staffs can find that track again. If you let 2 staff do that, the result would be like 0.75 instead of 2.
If you come down to ED developing, coding wise, there aren't much thing to code separately actually (I think). As an example Titan can work at the main code like stat, balancing, new feature etc... while Hudelf can only work at new feature (like the new Stat training thing - which won't relate to main system) and easy stuff like quest, NPC, Challenge. It takes time for Hudelf to learn the system so it's just risky to let him work at deeper project (I personally think the NPC bug is because of Hudelf because he's new at that - I don't blame him just to point out how risky coding can be, the forum was on fire back there).
Now hiring new staff. First, what for? A new staff will be better at new feature and slowly study the old one. I don't think ED has any plan for new feature. If he work for such feature you asked for, we have to wait like 3 months to let him learn that, 3 months which does not much, also as the very first point of my post, too many coders can't make a coding line run faster, also you have to pay him, and teach him. Also talk about teach him, like if Titan teach him, he must stand always from computer, stop working for ED and face to face teach him ED system - that's a lot of time, maybe 3 days, I see most people on forum can't even stand 3 days delays already...
Also, most of what you asked for is about the basic of the game (class, stat, balance...) which I think only Titan can work best at it. Hiring new staffs doesn't really help that much. There's no way to make a 10 day coding down to 7 days. I think the main issue that we can't really do 1 week release. I think making 2 week release would be a lot better, and when we have time (like having a big room for people to run around) we can actually hire a new staffs to work on new feature only.
And I think ED should hire an animator, not a coder, we need to buy more time for Titan to fix this horrible Game base. An animator can do art, items, NPC, storyline, cutscene... I think that will do a lot more than a coder now.



Remorse -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/20/2012 1:05:14)

I think they should make dex improve ur side arm but then make high str decrease the chance of getting blocked while dex does gun and increase block chance it woulld certainly make more sence. How does str make a gun more powerful..
it would also slow some oped str build while reducing the frusterating blocks from people witwh decent str.



Lycus -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/20/2012 2:22:58)

I see where you're coming from, but as it's been mentioned already multiple times, this could cause more problems balance wise. We're already in the process of looking in to balance and how we can improve the issues that have been raised, and we are discovering using the Balance tracker - If we added another stat now, it would pretty much mean we'd have to throw all we've done so far looking in to it etc. out of the window, and start again. For that reason, I feel at this time, it is not an option we can really take.



Stabilis -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/20/2012 7:52:41)

I'm not sure why a few people won't talk about the main topic.



Remorse -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/20/2012 8:59:30)

^ Well you said it was a discussion, So we are discussing possible diffrent stats to change/add.
If this was just a discussion of you idea then it should not be in the GD rather the sugestions page.



Oba -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/20/2012 9:56:56)

Agility and focus is already tooooooo much. A BIG NOOOOOOOO for this suggestion.!



Lord Nub -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/20/2012 10:37:33)

quote:

I think they should make dex improve ur side arm


I've seen posts like this a lot. It does make absolutely no sense whatsoever for Str to increase Sidearm damage.

I don't think increasing it with Dex is a good idea though since Dex is already a major factor in a match with blocks and hit chance.

I've seen it suggested with Sup also which also not a great one because of all the things already increased with Sup.

What about Tech though? Would it not make sense that a players Technology would increase the components of the sidearm therefore, increasing it's damage?

Tech doesn't do much for all the classes in general other than bot damage which requires all stats to be spread throughout every stat anyway making Tech not really as useful as its counterparts.

Any thoughts?



Stabilis -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/20/2012 11:35:04)

@playarn,

I think focus is a bit too much as well. Focus isn't so much a stat as it is a perk. It mutually grows with 4 other stats besides just one. There can develop an issue here, over time. What happens everytime our level cap rises? +4 stat points (also skills)... can focus grow at the same rate as player development? Quite possibly not. At first, focus robots were amazingly strong, but then again you could manipulate robots without ever needing other weapons (the first gamma bot model). The next level focus (focus level 6), will require 50 stats on each stat. I'm quite certain that health will never rise above 95. Focus + agility is a very limiting to choice as you can see. So playarn does make a good point.

But do not fret, I am not proposing or suggesting something to harass your freedom more, but showing you an idea that may possibly free players from such restrictions. Charisma as it's own stat can help by giving a structured base to robot development unique from a very levelled use between 4 different stat types.

@Remorse,
I know that we forum discussers are free to chat and argue different points... but I would say that it gets out of hand when the topic changes are we start discussing the employment processes and financial or fiscal influence.

@Lordnub,
I read your post, I think that technology as a weapon catalyst is a very good idea besides its use in res. and power skills. If most things were balanced, res. wouldn't improve so hastily and technology skills wouldn't hit too high. That is, after robots are fixed yet again to compromise technology effectiveness to avoid the OP label.



Oba -> RE: Charisma as an ED Stat (1/20/2012 12:06:29)

quote:

I think focus is a bit too much as well. Focus isn't so much a stat as it is a perk. It mutually grows with 4 other stats besides just one. There can develop an issue here, over time. What happens everytime our level cap rises? +4 stat points (also skills)... can focus grow at the same rate as player development? Quite possibly not. At first, focus robots were amazingly strong, but then again you could manipulate robots without ever needing other weapons (the first gamma bot model). The next level focus (focus level 6), will require 50 stats on each stat. I'm quite certain that health will never rise above 95. Focus + agility is a very limiting to choice as you can see. So playarn does make a good point.


Exactly. I didnt get time to write why I dont want anymore of the stat-thingys. The creation of builds is dead. 70% of all players use a 5 focus build, 20% str and 10% support. (As you may understand aint this any real numbers, just made them up of the the battles I do, it feels like this atleast.

Since noone want to get -res/def most players get 95 hp or less, and that does work perfectly with 5 focus which also give you another decent skill (robot). This is a good build, but it is getting abused. As I have said in most suggestion threads about new stat etc.; back in beta you could see any kind of builds. And in my opinion there always was a strenght and a weakness in them, which lead on to my next question; Why did 5 focus and agility come? I for one think it ruined more then it fixed. Surely it made heal loopers and other abusers disappear, but now 70% of the game abuse the same kind of build!
It may seem more balanced, yet I dont think it is, mercs get quite a buff in this build due their passive sheild. Just as CH now. Not to mention how boring it gets. I feel suicidal after played 30 min of ED. I miss this opportunity to make any build you wanted. Ofcourse you still can create any build you want (almost, since the skill req's is also getting to high*) but if so, you dont really stand a chance against these 5 focus'ers.

* While I was writting that about skill req's. Many skill req's is getting quite high as you may see youself. This also leads many players to use a 5 focus build. The high skill req's (mostly thinking of the passive sheilds for Merc/TLM/CH) that is above 40 is really high. Obviously it is good to kill str abusers etc. But if it continue as this it will be a focus game to 100%. As it is now is it only the passive sheilds, as I mentioned earlier, that have a req above 40. But if it do continue, each skill will have like 35-40 req, well then its impossible to create any other build than 5 focus. I hope this will stop since the high req's is quite high as it is now.

And it is a good point that about how will focus evolve?

- I reserve for some spelling mistakes, me isch tired today :3



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