RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (Full Version)

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goldslayer1 -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:21:24)

quote:

I just wanna say: AQW is NOT a PvP game. It has the feature but is not a PvP game. <_>

so? this is a pvp game, yet it has missions and a storyline.

anyway, aqw pvp is somewhat more successful in the sense that it doesn't keep records of wins and losses.
thats why it doesn't matter much if cysero keeps making insanely OP classes.



Ranloth -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:22:54)

My bad gold again, it was aimed at dracule's reply, not overall.



Prime Assassin -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:30:46)

^ to be honest aqw can be classed as a pvp game.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:33:13)

@dracule AQW isn't a pvp-based game. Also Trans and Remorse aren't trollers.



Ranloth -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:33:29)

PvP in AQW is only in few areas, it's not a main feature of the game unlike ED. So no it cannot.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:35:55)

@Trans Exactly. Just because it has PvP doesn't make it a PvP game. As ED is soley based around PvP AQW isn't. Therefore it is not a PvP game people need to stop comparing AQW to ED. They are completely different.



goldslayer1 -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:40:41)

quote:

^ to be honest aqw can be classed as a pvp game.

there are people who only played nothing but PVP. i use to be one of them back when pvp was good in ptr, and darkovia brawl.

it can be considered a pvp game.
just that people that dont play call it a dress up game, and over estimate its pvp.
in ptr and darkovia brawl pvp was at its best. and yeah it is somewhat a PVP game because they actually have real staff who balance out the classes so it can be balanced in pvp.
however word has it that cysero has been recently releasing OP classes causing a buying rush over these said classes. which most are promos from heromart items, or AC classes. with a non mem counterpart that takes like 3 months of farming to get.


quote:

Exactly. Just because it has PvP doesn't make it a PvP game. As ED is soley based around PvP AQW isn't. Therefore it is not a PvP game people need to stop comparing AQW to ED. They are completely different.

its not a pvp game, yet it has a PvP balancing staff. while ED doesn't.



Prime Assassin -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:43:03)

aqw may not directly be pvp but it does have it and in aqw. soloing bosses remindes me of 2 vs 2 u need alot of tactics. (i mean soloing bosses without the op classes.) aqw is half pvp in my opinion. and ed has many of the same features as aqw.



ND Mallet -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:46:38)

@gold The word is right. You can buy several OPd classes in-game by using ACs instead of waiting to earn them(VoT, Necromancer). If AQW has a Balance Team then they're not doing a good job at it. I won't even respond to your claim that ED has no balancing team.



goldslayer1 -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:54:27)

quote:

The word is right. You can buy several OPd classes in-game by using ACs instead of waiting to earn them(VoT, Necromancer). If AQW has a Balance Team then they're not doing a good job at it. I won't even respond to your claim that ED has no balancing team.

@mallet
i said balancing staff. not volunteers testers like we have in ED.
the balance developer for AQW actually was hired by artix. (also does balancing for HS i believe)

anyway according to some friends of mine, cysero pulls OP classes, charges ACs, people rush to buy them. then they nerf it saying its OP. and release a new one a couple months after. (i guess they picked that trick up from another game?)

either way u cant compare ED pvp to AQW pvp.
AQW pvp is more advanced in the sense that its real time, and no one really goes first, and luck doesn't play a huge role like it does here.

theres also player skills, for example sliding. it is a movement tactic that can be used by the player to avoid the enemy's hit while hitting the enemy. (idk if u ever played like this, pvp is more balanced this way)

i myself was the best ninja in ptr and darkovia brawl in our small pvp community we had back then.
idk about the pvp of today (since i no longer play actively), but ptr and darkovia was very balanced and took alot of skills to play on the pro lvl.

in the ptr, it took timed assaults on enemy side, (and alot of teamwork)

and the same can be said for class changes here. instead of earning the 50k credits to change people buy a class change with varium to go the the strongest class during that time.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:56:17)

@gold Yes but it isn't purely pvp. The game doesn't revovle around PvP. ED does. SO I don't see how AQW can be considered such a thing. Besides ED does have a balance team how could you not know that?



goldslayer1 -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 16:57:55)

quote:

Besides ED does have a balance team how could you not know that?

dude read. i said balancing STAFF. as in a developer. or game admin. not volunteers like we have in ED.
the guy that does balancing for the classes in aqw also does the coding. and he was actually hired by artix to do that.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 17:13:10)

@ Goldslayer this quote is just for you.

quote:

Hudelf also invests a very large amount of time in to Balance


That comes from this link and to be really exact it comes from Lycus's post

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hudelf is a hired by Artix and he codes for Epicduel so that fits boht of your statements right.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 17:33:07)

@gold OWA took the words right out of my mouth.



goldslayer1 -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 17:38:50)

@owa
post also says


quote:

If you want the list of the official teams that we have listed as staff, showing the Balance Team, here you go:
Co-Leaders -
Ashari
Wiseman (Has retired on the forums, but is still helping us with these things)
Balancers -
Illuminator
Omni (When availble, since he's been very busy)
Khimera
hudelf is the coder. obviously someone has to do the coding. however that doesn't mean he makes the balance decisions. like what skills goes to what class. what to nerf and by how much. (im sure u get what i mean)



anyway can we get on the original topic?


the idea of removing win loss records sounds very good.
leaving the battles to show how many battles were done, but no wins or losses.

i have seen alot of players quit because they have bad records, and get called noobs or they think they are bad at the game.

alot of people who care about high % could also be relieved of not having to worry so much and constantly using the stronger thing out there.

and would allow for players to use creative builds, which may be under performing, without fear of having a bad record.



Ashari -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 17:51:48)

@goldslayer1: RabbleFroth (he changed his name, so lets call him that) does do coding (not only balance-related, but he's there for whenever we need a new skill or mechanic coded), but he also contributes to our balance discussions and decisions, so he's definitely part of the balance team.

Back to the original topic, I don't see how covering up balance problems solves anything. 1v1 records are already already inflated by NPC battles and I still see complaints about 1v1 balance, so having a bad record isn't what gets players mad. It's having little or no chance at winning against an overpowered class or build that discourages and frustrates players. When you're losing 9 out of 10 battles due to a balance issue, you're still bummed even if your battle record doesn't reflect your losses.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 17:52:41)

If you removed win/loss ratio then you wouldn't know how many wins you have gotten or loses. And you couldn't tell players apart from bad players. Or who's been playing longer. I would hate to see my over 3000 wins just vanish so I don't agree.



ND Mallet -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 17:55:02)

@isaiah If you lose all the time you will know, you don't go in a stupor every time you battle and then have to look at your record to see if you win or lost do you?



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 18:05:40)

How to solve people complaining about OP'ed builds.

Well as Ashari said hiding it doesn't solve much because if you have a pro record and make a silly mistake it is fine but if you have a noob record and make a silly mistake your an idiot so if you hide the record people will most likely assume your a noob unless your name is up on the All-time or on the Daily a lot.

A thing that I do is I set up 100 fights before and after every Retrain where I see what classes tactics beat me and how they beat me as well is what tactics I use to beat some builds so when I retrain I can try and improve my build so I have less openings to get beat with while at the same time taking full advantage of the openings I have on other builds. This tactic is also known as adapt and overcome or as you guys call it Evolve or Die.

To put this is simple terms if you know why you lose and you know why you win you can make it so you win more and lose less so you wont complain about the OP'ed classes because less builds will be OP'ed to you. Best part is if everyone uses this tactic there will pretty much always be a cycle of new builds popping up but this is only a theory that is yet to be tested in EpicDuel.



goldslayer1 -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 18:10:08)

quote:

Back to the original topic, I don't see how covering up balance problems solves anything. 1v1 records are already already inflated by NPC battles and I still see complaints about 1v1 balance, so having a bad record isn't what gets players mad. It's having little or no chance at winning against an overpowered class or build that discourages and frustrates players. When you're losing 9 out of 10 battles due to a balance issue, you're still bummed even if your battle record doesn't reflect your losses.


my overall % use to be 93.3 at one point.

i had a really unlucky 2 weeks and that % went down to 92.6

it really irritated me.
but i still think no win loss records is a better system than the current one.

because for example, i would to be using all kinds of builds in pvp.
like the old str merc.
however i would get irritated by the fact that after playing a couple of hours, the build stacks about 10-15 losses an hour.

and getting 50+-80+ losses a day isn't something i plan on doing.
thats why i have to stick to whatever is the strongest, to keep up with current speed, and standard.
and if win/losses didn't count. i wouldn't get so irritated and post on forums about the really bad luck streaks that i get.
because in the end, those matches didn't count.

so i hope the staff atleast consider the idea.


quote:

To put this is simple terms if you know why you lose and you know why you win you can make it so you win more and lose less so you wont complain about the OP'ed classes because less builds will be OP'ed to you. Best part is if everyone uses this tactic there will pretty much always be a cycle of new builds popping up but this is only a theory that is yet to be tested in EpicDuel.

does this apply when u outclass ur enemy in dex, support, and tech. yet he still does the constant deflect, blocking and critting?



Nub Apocalypse -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 23:29:44)

This thread is just arguing the impossible. A PvP game with no win/loss ratio? No way.



Lord Nub -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 23:37:10)

Oh that's cool just take everything that lil ol' ManThong has worked so hard on.

I'm near 86% in 2v2 and I've got the same luck as everyone else. I've played every player on the 2v2 board many many many MANY times and the key between us? Many of them rush their matches and make HUGE mistakes. Taking what little skill away from this game that there is now is not a solution.

Making the luck factors controllable by the players decision about stat placement however is but apparently 0% minimums would mean this would be a "strategic" turn based mmo as advertised and that's not what Titan wants.



PD -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/4/2012 23:48:07)

I don't see how pretending the problem doesn't exist will make the problem go away.



Prime Assassin -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/5/2012 3:20:28)

someone can lock this thread i feel it has gone offtopic. what i meant by this idea was everyone to enjoy this game without worrying about their win%s.so they can use the old builds they love. for example i would of used the 5 focus bh if this happened becuase it was my favourite build thats even been in this game. but now i am forced into "power" build. but this thead has gone off topic in my opinion and some people dont seem to understand the meaning of this thread so anyone can lock it. thanks.



Stabilis -> RE: how to solve everyone moaning about op classes without having to nerf. (3/5/2012 8:01:49)

The win % or recent win % is very important, for one, battle tracker would use it to determine the player group with the highest advantage, and overall judge the the capacity of a player to strategize. We calculate the # of kills, so the likelihood of kills is also helpful, maybe even more.



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