RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 10:41:11)

^Better :)


But It kind of already does,

I supose an option would be to increase the diminishing returns factor further.





drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 10:43:58)

I meant as in if you strike once, your next strike does 80% DMG, then 65%, then back to 100%.

This is in game?　:ｏ



Sipping Cider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 10:45:58)

I got an idea that should help ballance and get rid stat regression which needs to be changed anyways as the level cap raises.

Ok, so we all know that most OPness comes from piling stats into one stat category, such as streangth and technology. Currently, stat diminishing exists in a few spots: above 50 and above 85. Every biuld goes over one of these markers, even focus biulds, meaning it only slightly punishes the single stat abusers more than spread out stat users.

So, my idea is to change stat diminishing to compare to your lowest stat! So a strength blood mage with only 25 support and 100 streangth will have 75 of the streangth stats diminished, meaning it takes an extra stat point to get the same effect. This goes for a techmage with 100 tech and 18 streangth, meaning less resistance and spell damage. In the meantime, ballanced biulds with 65 in each stat will recieve no stat diminishing since no stat goes above the lowest stat.


This is basically a change to stat diminishing, but the idea is to punish stat abusers more than ballanced biulds.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 10:49:00)

@drinde
Wont really help that much plus it would be anoying for low levels.


The reason why, is most STR builds use strike /blockables as least as possible. Well the smart ones do anyway.



Persoanly I think rage needs to be changed to not give powerbuilds as much as an adavtge, That means players can use decent sheilds without being raged every 2 turns.
This would be a start IMO.

Go back one or two pages if you wont to see the details of how I think rage should be changed. :)

@ Sun,

I like that idea,

But I think we should keep the exact same dimishing returns that there is now AND add you idea On top!!!

That means oveall dimishing returns would be increased for powerbuilds and kept the same for average builds.


Awsome idea.



zion -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 10:49:18)

Since mid-level weapons have been given power boosts, balance has taken a SIGNIFICANT hit.
For example:
A level 24 TM with non-var weapons and with no enhancements could conceivably have (from manually updated compendium):

Name Enh. Slots Level Type Dmg Def Res Stat Modifiers Requirements
Cadenīs Wrath 7 28 28 Energy 28 (-4) 0 0 24 0 37 31 0 0
Ion Blaster 4 20 20 Energy 20 0 0 9 0 0 25 35 0
Lectrooka 4 26 32 Energy 32 (-2) 0 0 6 3 0 36 40 0
Seraph Armor P M 5 28 6 Phys 6 (-4) 0 0 6 5 Male TM (Tech Mage)

Which could result in a crazy OP caster build like:

Level Health Energy Str Dex Tech Sup

24 70 80 37 36 97 25
Stats 0 0 45 8
Base 37 36 52 17

With the skill tree something like:


1 Field Medic 1 Defense Matrix 10 Plasma Bolt

Technician 1 Bludgeon 1 Overload

Malfunction 2 Reroute 10 Plasma Rain

Assimilation Super Charge Deadly Aim

This gives:

70 damage Plasma bolt
60 damage Plasma rain
42 bludgeon damage
and some reroute (enough energy for 3 plasmas)
poor defense for level but great resistance all
for middle of the road non-var weapons!

I'm sure someone could come up with an even better build, but what do you think - has the game taken a (few) step(s) backwards?
Goodbye Juggernaut!

--Noiz



ambien -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 14:48:33)

ok they have nerf classes all the time how about nerfing the cheap bms build nerf their there str. like they nerf the mercs at 1 time. a bm is a very cheap build yes very cheap.

let see fire ball a swing att and then oh yea fire ball dnt take much to do that does it


always the SySy[sm=zorb_smilie.gif]



Ez_Ease -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 15:43:29)

I think the best way to balance is at the selection stage. What I mean for almost every build there is a counter to it.
If a person has high dex then pair them up against a person with high smoke screen, or with high technology against
a person with malfunction and so on, then they would go up againts a person designed specifically for that build, then it would
come down to how one adapts to the fight.

I personally dont mind when I run into those who have abusive stats it their choice not mine, my job is to use my brain to figure
them out, right now the ones I have the hardest time beating are the strength build and my two TLM both have a good and balance
defense in physical (25-30) and technology (26-32), againt the other types I can hold my own. Now if I had intimidate
like the regular mercs they would be very easy to kill.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 16:59:11)

As I've stated before, rather than nerf the op classes, they need to buff the up ones. That way instead of making those with a good class unhappy, you make it so those with the weaker class can compete again. [8D]



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 21:55:45)

@Sungardian, that's pretty good and would work ;)

Maybe, they could use a calculation of difference between highest to lowest statistic that could be applied to reduce the values of the skill tree. Bit hard to explain, but lets say the difference was 75 between high and low stat training. If we modified that value by dividing it by 10 it would give us a value of 7.5 rounded up would be 8. So all skills would be reduced in effectiveness by 8 points. So, for example, instead of a max plasma bolt doing say 94 damage, it would do 86 and a level 1 heal would be reduced from 33 to 25. The modifying factor could be tinkered with as this is juat an idea to help with the stat spamming!

Just to toss in a few more ideas about dealing with OPness that comes from piling stats into one stat category.

With non variums being disadvantaged by quite a lot (I went and bought a full non varium set) Would it be better if skills improved on base stats alone, instead of base stats + enhancements. With skills improving on base stats the ability to create these builds that stack points into a stat by using enhancements would be diminished greatly. The skills may have to be buffed a bit to compensate and the melee skill would need to be switched to strength instead of weapon damage.

Another option could be to have the requirements of a skill modified by the skill damage, so if you stacked all your points into one skill and statistic and the particular skills damage went above a threshold based on character level the requirement would be lifted by 1 point and as the damage increased the requirements would increase. This would make a form of diminishing returns for skills...




ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 22:01:01)

@sun I have 111 strength. Lowest stat is support with 48. I could easily take some points out of enhancements and put into support to avoid stat diminishing with your system. 4 focus strength builds are still entirely possible with your system.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 22:23:43)

@Goony,

About your question... I prefer that stats have nothing to do skills, as both are required concepts, fundamental in nature. If skills ever improved, I would have to owe that to character level or item damage.



Shadronica -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/3/2012 22:34:08)

About the skill tree ... why don't we have to open new skills as we level up anyway? Of course they should also scale up in how much energy it costs as well. That way players would have to invest in more energy ... the ones who don't invest in energy and just want to bloat their own stats will mainly only be able to use guns, aux, melee, bot and perhaps some lower level skills. That should even up the playing field.


You see, we have backed ourselves into a corner with all the surplus stat points gained from all the enhancements and weapon stats ... we now need an outlet. I know that diminishing returns was introduced to counteract but I feel that it is ineffective. If we have to invest more into getting/using our skills then I am sure we would start to see a far more balanced game ... particularly if the team get it right with the skill tree.


For example at level 1 you can have field medic with two other low level skills and as you level up you have more points to invest in those skills.
Level 10 you get another three skills available ... and so on.


As we get to the skills that give more advantage they should cost a good deal more energy for the different skills, making it far easier to manage a balance between an OP skill as opposed to the UP skill.


I guess it is a different plan of attack on the issue of balance but I feel in the long run it would end up being the simplest method to maintaining balance by merely adjusting how much energy is spent for certain problematic skills.
Not only does this bypass having to change whole skills because they aren't effective or are too efficient, but it is just a matter of working out how much energy one should use for that skill to help make it more competitive and balanced.
Example: Beserker has become a problematic skill and the classes using it have a very high win % rate. The game dev's would simply increase the amount of energy required to perform that skill.


Also, if an idea like this were to be implemented I would love to see people get a free retrain at levels 10, 20, 30 and so on so that they could rearrange their stat/skill placement to accomodate the next lot of skills available at levels 10, 20, 30 and so on.


It would be far easier for this game to raise the level cap by just creating 3 new level skills for each class at level 40, 50 and so on. Then adjusting the energy cost of each skill to bring it in line with the other classes skills.


This also should help balance all the lower levels as well as they will only be able to access a certain amount of skills for their levels.


Creativity will still be there because you will be able to use as much or as little of the skill tree by the investment you make into energy.


Any thoughts on this?





Sipping Cider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 1:11:23)

@ remorse and goony

I like both of your ideas being added on to mine. This would really bring things into ballance in terms of stats. The one downside is: players would be forced to go ballanced stats. So I guess what it really comes down to is "what type of gameplay do we want?" do we want people to biuld unique and creative builds (spamming certain stats), or unique and creative battles (ballancing out stats).


@ND Mallet guy

Originally, my idea was not so focused on stopping streangth biulds in their tracks, but rather helping ballanced biulds. With my system, there would be close to no diminshed stats for ballanced builds while with the current system ballanced builds get punished almost as heavily as spamming a stat builds do. If you are looking to put an end to stat spamming, check out remorses or goonies idea.

@Shadronica
I do like your idea, especially for planning for the future. The way the tree is now it gets filled up very quickly, and if this game ever does get to a really high level cap new skills will be needed. The only problem I see is havong to test out new skills and ballance them.

As for the increasing energy cost, that also makes sense. I woild like to add on that certain classes have to powerfull of abilties in the low level region. Hybrid armor, mineral armor, plasma armor, plasma bolt, and berzerker are all powerful skills that I think are available to soon in the skill tree. This explains why they have requirements currently, something many players dislike. If these skills were only available farther up the skill tree requirements could be removed, helping the game become more simple and focused on other fun strategy.

@goony one more time :)
I like the idea of making stats from weapons less important. This also helps deal with the problem of needing to enhance gear to be able to compete. This would probably slow games down, depending on the compensation given to those skills, which is not an entirely bad aspect. Of course, this would lower the value of varium and anger many folk.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 2:46:23)

The current state of stats and things are fine, so i don't think we should go further into it, but the suggestion Goony made about BASE STATS is one i totally agree with. It really evens out NON VAR vs VAR peeps and wouldn't turn down a lot of new players. I have just convinced some of my friends to play ED, and it took time since VAR really knocks out non vars regardless of the level issue. So i hope Goony's idea will be implemented, it also spares me and others from abusing a stat to get the most out of an ability whilst nerfing BMs STR build by a mile. Also Goony, i think i fought your test alt with the max SC and RB, he had the build and it was a fun match [:D]

@Scarlet Reaper

Buffing to make nerfing doesn't work in ED as examples have already shown. What happened to CH after a 3-4 month buff? NERF
What happened to TLM with their huge advantage in Early Delta? NERF
What happens to EVERY CLASS GETS A BUFF? NERF
A never ending cycle of Nerf/Buff/Nerf/Buff 4eva, so it will only make a temporary change before a whole NERF stacks on top. ED will probably never get balance, so far i haven't seen one balanced game that has different classes/stat complexity etc.

@Shadronica
Interesting idea, hope mods look into your thought, but hopefully wouldn't make the game more complex as it is considering how easily it would turn off new players, i only ever started getting the hang of ED at lvl29 :3
Back then i had a thought which most low levels have, max multi and bloodlust, didn't even use smoke.

@Sunguardian
Nice thought, but correct me, what u are saying is that if it's like:

BM has 100STR and 20sup.
80 str points is deducted leaving them with 20 str.
Is that the idea?
I'm not quite getting it, hopefully you can explain :)

@Remorse
Agreed that rage needs a change in gaining it. Something that is being experienced now is that if you do low damage, or receive high damage, your rage gains at a fast rate...
But to specific builds that will either destroy them, or make them so OP they win easily, such as BMs who take a lot of damage due to low DEF/RES meaning rage fireball/zerk.
So i think a new rage aspect should be added so any build(except power...) will have an even chance against each other.



Shadronica -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 3:51:58)

^Thank you both above. :)

Arevero I highly doubt that my above idea would make the game more complex. In actual fact by making lower levels use their skill trees gradually it will build a more positive and confident experience for them rather than seeing some uber maxed out high damage skills at a time when the lower levels have poor to very mediocre defense and resist. I have already leveled up several different characters including a non varium so I am quite familiar with what goes on.

Also by making the energy costs of different skills more intensive then we would be far less likely to see a Max on any particular skill as it would leave their base stats quite poor if they have to invest a high amount of energy to abuse skills.

You see what I am saying is that you can invest your training points on the main base stats and build a tank if you wish ... but ... the tank will not be able to afford to have high level skills ... or you can invest your training points on a mid level base build with some extra on energy to be able to use reasonable skills from your tree ... or you can have a weak base build with high points in energy to use more of the skill tree.

Agreed with you also Sunguardian that the first three skills in the skill tree would have to be rearranged. Perhaps we could have field medic and passives on the first tier and the high damage skills going down on the last tiers of the skill tree. With this type of skill tree and the high energy costs for real hard line damage skills I wouldn't like to even see a weak stat base player even able to achieve a max high damage skill until they were level 40.


Another plus to all this is that lower levels would work hard to get their next lot of skills. There is always a great deal of satisfaction in attaining a goal.




Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 5:47:13)

Someone DO SOMETHING about 2v2 LEVEL BALANCE TEAM. I just had a battle where it was 28 and 34 vs 2 34s. O-o

Balance tracker needs a fix or it's a wrong coding but this is happening constantly. Many people lose due to the ineffectiveness, and inefficient of 2v2 balance tracking. How is anyone gona compete with a team like that. I believe others have brought up this matter both and someone else concluded it with 'wrong coding', well it's not wrong if it's a repetitive cycle, hence not a wrong coding but a problem. Balance tracker should be fixed this week's release i believe by Rabblefroth's 'Balance' implemented in EpicDuel.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 7:02:19)

@ above

The balance team cant test the balance of 2v2 as the team is kinda too small atm once they have recruited new testers i m sure the can test 2v2 balance so we just have to wait until they recruit at least 50 testers because u need a lot of tester in order to test 2v2 balance. right now jug and 2v2 are being ignored by the devs as most of the ed community just play 1v1 and it is easy to fix 1v1 balance. 2v2 has been unbalanced since beta. i m still waiting for it to be balanced. every1 has either given up waiting or forced to use a juggernaut build in 2v2.

Back to topic:

Mages are very very powerful at all lvls due to the new wep rehaul. the basic club and wrist blades should be buffed back as there are many new weps u can use.

merc's basic club: +12 dmg and no stat
bounty hunter's basic wrist blades:+ 13 dmg and no stat
mage's basic staff:+15 dmg and + 3 tech

now is this fair for low lvls no a mage can basically use the basic staff until lvl 10 or even higher without changing his/her primary. yes the balance team did say that mages are weak at lvl 1-5 but since the buff on plasma bolt( energy reduction and requirements removed) mages have become 1 of the most deadly class at low lvls. imho all basic wep should be the same +13 dmg and all should plus 3 stat. it is unfair that mages get a good starting wep while the other 2 class have to let go of their basic wep for a better wep at lvl 5. this is unfair as basic weps do not have requirements, mages are allowed to abuse more stat from lvl 1-10 or maybe high i have seen a lvl 18 use basic staff with a deadly build.



Sipping Cider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 9:24:54)

@Arevero

My idea is a little complicated. To use your situation as an example:

20 support is your lowest stat so all stats above 20 are diminished. Your primary and sidearm improve by one every four levels, so 20 strength gives you base damage of 5. Now all stats above 20 are diminished, meaning it takes an extra stat point for the same effect. Normally, those extra 80 stats give you a bonus of 20 damage, for a total of 25 damage. Dimishing stats causes an extra point of damage every five stats invested now instead of every four, so those 80 stats give you a bonus of 16 instead, for a new total of 21 damage.

Hope you understand this complicated concept :)



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 12:59:56)

@ Sun

Doesn't that just end up pushing people to 5 focus again??



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 13:41:38)

We need luck... and Focus... to be split from the mechanics as their own independent stat types.

Otherwise we will be living the vicious cycle of EpicDuel forever, Strength, Support, Focus, and general stat exploits.



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 13:45:37)

I think Robot damage scaling should be made to be the same as your resistance or at least buff robot damage a little.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 13:47:52)

What if... Robot damage only improved by Focus?



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 14:35:23)

@Depressed Void

Can you go further into this, please?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 15:13:23)

One moment please.




Robot Focus Bonus (replaces Robot Technology Bonus and the Focus Multiplier):

(HCI x 0.75 + CL) +/- 2


EXAMPLE 1: HCI = 20, CL = 2

Robot Damage Range
= (20 x 0.75 + 2) +/- 2
= 17 +/- 2
= 15-19


EXAMPLE 2: HCI = 45, CL = 35

Robot Damage Range
= (45 x 0.75 + 35) +/- 2
= 69 +/- 2
= 67-71


Legend:

HCI is the highest common integer (not factor!). In a list of numbers this would be the lowest number.
If PLAYER1 had 26 Strength, 33 Dexterity, 25 Technology, and 30 Support, then the HCI (or lowest number in the list) would be 25.

CL is character or player level.
PLAYER1 is level 16, therefor the CL for PLAYER1 is 16



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/4/2012 17:34:49)

@Sunguardian

Then if it is as what you have said, that would highly likely force everyone to have balanced stat amount, so in the end, people would have to have 5-focus builds which non-vars would heavily be nerfed on. I mean it's a great idea but probably requires a slight change so it doesn't make everyone go on a 50 all-stat build just to get the most out of it. Could we discuss further on this topic because i think it's a wonderful idea, but needs a change so it suits vars/non-vars/high levels/low levels. But 1 question:

Do ENHANCEMENTS also count towards stat diminishing?



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