RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:22:24)

Might be a good thing. We'll never know if we don't try, eh?
I don't know...what does it mean?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:25:39)

EXTREME AND MASSIVE POSTS TIME!



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:28:27)

quote:

@^: Wait, he was selling EMP grenades? Is that just a visual glitch?...

I say no to consumable EMP grenades/Stun Grenades. We have them as skills for a reason.


Behind Xraal (Either Xraal or Servertron 3000), there is a shop (Like a stand where people sell...Say...Fries). You can see an EMP Grenade on the Counter. He doesn't actually sell them.

I'd say really weak like 5-10 Energy just because. When I was a Tech Mage, I'd have 1 Assim just because most Mercs like to have 77 EP just enough for Bunker and Artillary so when I take 3 Energy, they can no longer Artillary.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:29:19)

Please, not again, i mean, anything that relates to a skill, even if it takes 1 energy, that skill would be less unique and will take away all means of EMP Grenade. I suggest no more boosters now, EP/HP is good enough, with EMP boosters hell knows what it can erupt. But honestly, EMP boosters is really a bad idea in a Hunter's case.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:32:13)

At the same time though, if we sold grenade boosters, they would harm Mercenaries the most because of their lack of energy/health regeneration abilities.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:36:59)

Guy just felt like I should rain on some parades Grenades were in the works for some time back in Beta. They were found game breaking by the Dev team and scrapped, the code from grenades was then recycled into Robots.

quote:

We experimented with grenades in the battle engine and found that they were either not useful or seriously broke the game's balance, however, we were able to use recycle some of that code and combine it with our skill perk concept to produce:

ROBOTS!!!
These feisty androids can wreak havoc on your opponents by delivering a standard attack or a special skill. These bots are designed to serve players at all levels, as their damage scales with Technology and Focus as a player levels up. The special skills will be unlike anything currently available, making for some truly interesting builds and dynamically changing dueling tactics. The first prototype robot will be available from the Overlord Guard at the Overlord Facility, Mirv in the Barrens, Talia in Fortune City, Ulysses in the Wasteland, and Xraal in the Bio Dome. We are very excited about this feature as it introduces nearly limitless possibilities for new skill and battle strategy! Plus, in the future you may be able to place one of these guys to guard your house!



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:39:09)

So to the point, no more boosters need to added, a lot are already complaining about Hp ones, I just used 1 today and someone started calling me noob xD

And yes, it will cause un-balance so...DISLIKE BUTTON!



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:41:03)

Ehhh...I remember that. It were nice times! :)
Survival mode. Thats one thing I can't wait. ;)



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:44:07)

Arevero, health boosters are the only booster that technically scales with Defense and Resistance, the greater the Defense/ Resistance, the better the boost. Energy does not scale with Defense/ Resistance, so there is less of a chance that it creates power in PvP.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:47:21)

All of you just want to switch skills thinking that will solve a balance problem or strength abuse problem which exist among all classes. I never stated that Blood mages are underpowered but it took staff over 8 months to make the small improvements to the Blood Mage class withot going overboard and now you want to undo those slight changes, everyone sayss I exaggerate numbers but I know for fact when my dex was at 86 (26-32) +9 +1 a high strength Blood Mage only got 37 critical damage with max fire ball and I blocked his max berzerker. Only way a Blood Mage can get the high damage from strength based skills or tech based skills is with very high stats due to all the tank builds running around. When I was tech Mage I had a Level 5 malfunction strength max Assimilation build with max Deadly Aim and with the Frost Bolt Blaster I constantly got 70+ damage the highest was 79 so if you think a strength Tech mage can't be as dangerous or more as well as underpowered think again. The merc classes with a strength abuse build is more dangerous then a Blood Mage due to they can increase their strength even more with field commander. A strength abuse Hunter classes can be even more deadly then the strength abuse Blood mage due to having smoke/malfunction and EMP. So all you Hunters try this you meet a strength Blood Mage he goes first with fireball use EMP, a miracle will happen called winning and maybe a light bulb will popup and you will say hay if I take away their energy I might have a chance of winning the match. What else does the Cyber Hunter have to increase defense wow defense matrix.

If someone would have suggested switching Berzerker with Assimilation with these changes
Name: Smashsimilation
Energy use: none
Skill type: Triple jab skill
Improves with none
Energy regain: yes
Damage: percent of weapon damage
Just jumping to level 10
Level 10 25% weapon damage 6 points of energy drain 50% energy regain, 50% weapon damage 6 points of energy drain 50% energy regain, 100% weapon damage 6 points of energy drain 50% energy regain.

At Level 10 this skill would still take away less energy then Level 1 Atom Smasher or EMP.

The only skill that defines the physical contact aggression of the Blood Mage is Berzerker.
If Berzerker must go then the unblockable skill massacre needs to go as well. Let's take away the unblockable EMP as well because it takes too much energy even at low levels. Let's take away the part of the code that allows cheap shot ignore a percentage of defense. Take away field commander and make double strike be a single strike. Nerfs all around that is the answer to balance. Maybe the answer to balance is capping damage at 20 no matter what attack skill or weapon you use all because a few can't figure a build to counter a strength build.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 19:51:53)

@Hun im going to agree with you on one part and that is it. with a drain of 11, I could care less which skill you use to get it and all classes with a drain can do this, you can counter the BM zerker fireball combo because max zerker costs 10 more energy then max fireball and most if not all STR BM put only enough energy to use that combo once because that is all they think they will need. So if you drain over 10 the combo is broken and you can drag out the battle for another 3 or more rounds.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 20:02:07)

Look, NO FINAL SKILL WILL BE TAKEN OUT, how many times do i have to repeat, zerk absolutely has NOTHING to do with Massacre, now this is just becoming insane, if you think a DM and EMP is all it needs against a STR BM, well think again! I am a Cyber myself, and I KNOW WHAT IT IS AGAINST BMS, straight away if u EMP, then rage and gun, straight away you DM, THEY AZRAEL BOT U, next time you DM, they have a E PRIMARY, now a lot of Bms have PHY side and ENG prim. NOT TO MENTION BMS LUCKINESS. Sure luck benefits you in the long run, i absolutely agree, BUT Bms seemingly blocks/deflects/rage/crit more than ANY other classes i have met, did i forget to mention they rage straight after 3-4 rounds?

Sorry but BMs UP? Not a CHANCE. And no, we are not jealous or thinking only about ourselves, switching skills is No.1 option, CREATING SKILLS IS THE LAST as Mods have pointed out. And no Berzerk isn't the ONLY AGGRESSIVE MOVE, take Sc/Fire/plasma, the problem is Bms are hiding behind that STR ZERK build and not daring to try Plasma cannon or SC.

TO ALL THOSE BMS OUT THERE WHO AREN'T USING I STR BUILD, I CONGRATULATE YOU, 1/9 Bms i fight are always tech/SC build, great, i heavily appreciate the fact that people aren't using the current 'OP' builds.

Regardless of that, if you want us to stop the zerk takeaway, FINE, then STOP USING STR BUILD, I'm waiting for 8/9Bms of tech/SC build to show up, THEN ZERK CAN STAY, END OF STORY. I'm sorry but BMs are dominating every round, I used a BH alt, and boom, died in 2 rounds from Fireball and Berzerk. And Damage cap just TOTALLY throws all means of Diversity in ED into the trash. What can 20 damage do? That's like a damage amount a lv23 can do. Damage cap is a definite no from me.

Overall leave final attacks out of BM nerf discussion, how did we even get to that point?



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 21:34:47)

^
Agreed, just give BMs assimilate instead of bezerker and switch around the skills in the skill tree to make it cost more skill points to make a strength build.
@hun
Are you serious with this?
quote:

If Berzerker must go then the unblockable skill massacre needs to go as well. Let's take away the unblockable EMP as well because it takes too much energy even at low levels. Let's take away the part of the code that allows cheap shot ignore a percentage of defense. Take away field commander and make double strike be a single strike. Nerfs all around that is the answer to balance. Maybe the answer to balance is capping damage at 20 no matter what attack skill or weapon you use all because a few can't figure a build to counter a strength build.


Tech and dexterity should be upgrading together like strength and support are. Look here: http://www.epicduelwiki.com/index.php/Stat_Progression to get 7-9 defense you need 21 dexterity but to get that much resistance you only need 19 tech, it gets worse later on, to get 41-50 defense you need 161 dexterity, but to get that in resistance you need 144 technology. So I think technology should be set on the same scale as dexterity.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 21:35:13)

Now I have forgotten what I was going to post.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 21:37:36)

One Winged Angel1357, actually max berzerker cost 12 more points of energy then max fire ball but none the less they are complaining about one build instead of realizing they have skills to win against those builds. I have taken out within 2 to 3 rounds Strength Blood Mages and I don't have energy drain.

They would not have seen so many strength builds if technician was never taken away. Then they suggest replacing a skill with another skill without improvements or just plain taking a skill away which if that happened that would be the third time a skill that a Blood Mage uses would be taken away because of the few players.

If Blood Mages switched to all super high tech builds then they would be calling for a nerf to the Plasma Cannon, replacing, or taking away that skill.

Arevero, now you know how players of Blood Mages feels when you suggest removing a skill or making a suggested change without a viable adjustment to the replacement skill. Due to the Blood mage having no energy regain they need to get as much damage done to win the match because after the eneergy is gone they are left with a weak Aux, a Block-able strike, and the only powerful tool left the side arm, a weak bot, unless 5 focus and high tech, the Blood Mage uses the side arm, Aux and bot all they have left is Block able strikes. In one match I did 4 regular strikes on a cyber hunter it was blocked 4 times I used the bot that was blocked all thank to high level shadow arts and me dex was high then his. Also, it was leaked that they wanted the new classes have new unique ultimate skills but they will not tell us what they are.

Nerfing is never an answer to balance but proper weapon requirement placement on all weapons at every level is a start then bringing certain other skills up top par with the skills of other classes. If I have max Reflex Boost activated when I use max Super Charge it should get greater damage not the same if Reflex Boost is not activated.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 21:48:02)

@Hun my bad the 11 drain I have has yet to fail at killing the STR BM Combo so I just assumed it was 10. Well guess what that means, Tech Mage is physically unable to remove the STR spam combo if it is used with max fireball and max zerker because the gap is twelve and the drain is twelve so the drain can never exceed the gap. In short 45-33=33 which translate to fireball plus fireball instead of fireball plus berzerker




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/8/2012 22:36:32)

zman 2, I wrote that to show how touchy the subject is when players are talking about removing skills or replacing skills without improvements like it was done to the Blood Mage 2 times already and if it is true that the ultimate skills of the new classes will be replaced it would be nice to know what they are and when will it happen. About the stat progression scaling I brought up that issue before especially when Plasma rain Improves With: Technology (+1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 4 Technology after) were artillery strike Improves With: Support (+1 damage at 22 Support; +1 damage per 4 Support after) and multi shot Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage per 4 Dexterity).

One Winged Angel1357, that is why a staff and I had a heavy debate about the energy drain of Assimilation was not good enough or up to par with the other energy drain skills due to at the time everyone knew it only took away 10 points of energy so players of other classes put extra points in energy without sacrificing power thus steered more tech mages away from using Assimilation but I was one of the few that used Assimilation successfully a good percent of the time sometimes just for the damage. They are not only after the strength blood mage but they are after the tech mage with high tech and if there was a lot of high tech Blood Mages they would be after nerfing the Plasma Cannon as they were in the beginning of Delta.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 2:11:30)

Anyone else wanna remove luck completely now?
I just met a guy who crits every other attack with less support than me, and it happened twice from the same guy.
3 Dex= 1% chance to block as opposed to 2.
No minimum for anything, if I have 100 more dex or tech than you, you shouldn't block or deflect... period.
SA cannot exceed the maximum chance to block.
Maximum block chance is now 25% as opposed to 40%
Half the chance to critical (these are by far the most annoying).
If you go first that first attack can't crit.
You can only crit a maximum of 1 time per game.
Deflections are 1/3 damage instead of 1/2.
Maximum chance to block is now 12.5% as opposed to 25%
If lets say you are using an azrael weapon and you have a negative % chance it adds up from the negative % not the 0%. So if it was -3% to critical azrael bane would raise it to 2%.
A crit can't kill unless sit would've killed anyways.
You can't block or deflect an attack that would've killed.



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 2:20:22)

Blood Mages need to receive Technician once again!



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 2:26:13)

^
They had technician? I thought that was CH, didn't BMs have assimilate which was replaced with reflex boost?

I would make DA come out of overload, switch BL with intimidate, and switch reflex with bezerker on the skill tree, this would at least require them to use 3 more skill points.
OR
To make it simple replace bezerker with assimilate.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 2:29:30)

@zman
Yes , they had Technician before but they removed it because maybe it was weak or can be abused or something .



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 2:50:21)


@Hun
If Bms go TECH build, we will not nerf anything UNLESS ITS OPed. Only reason why we nerf STR BMS is because of the OPness in it, and how it HIGHLY disadvantages high/low lvled players. It is plainly a build requiring no skill, no thinking, plain 'hit the button and win'. And it also UN-promote creative build making ideas for BMs. Like i said before, those NON-STR BMs out there are trying to survive, and we are trying to help them while also nerfing the current STR BMs. And no, the reason why i disagreed a lot with you was because of the insane idea of a comparison between a final skill, and a level 5 berzerk. It was just so out of my league.

One thing i agree is NERFING DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING. Well right now, it's our only option, or make a new skill for E Drain. Either way BMs NEED a nerf right now to stop it's crazy wreckage during PvP. But the best Drain would be an ability that can drain 10-12EP at most. So a bit like assimilation, except not 50% of it, but 100% while dealing 75% damage.


That's all i have to say so far other than FIX CH, we need technician, DA, static %. All else i have yet to discuss. [:)]



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 3:34:44)

If they get Technican, Reflex must go. You cannot have 2 Stat Boosters that are defensive, hence why classes have Reflex + E Shield, Matrix + Technican, Armor + BloodShield/E Shield.
Technican improves Multi and E Bunker while Reflex improves Overload and Super Charge. I don't want to see combo of Technican + E Bunker + Multi. Look at bonuses that Bunker has while Mercs don't have anything to boost their defences but HA and FC for Str, so nothing to improve Dex/Tech so simply their skills.
Bunker + Multi + BL is a good BM build, strong but beatable which I rate balanced with any Res Shield or good EMP/Assimilation at right time. It's beatable but strong. They have much lower damage due to higher Tech so more of a Tank build which is much better than Str abuse.

About CH - let's not push it too far with DA. It did well with old skills so I'd say DA wouldn't be needed as in their former glory, they were quite strong, but it was neglected due to pre-nerf TLMs who dominated Delta V. BMs could get a fix with DA but it could still stay, one requirement would be nerfing Str which will happen through stat diminishing sometime soon as they've planned, that means less damage dealt, less damage back as HP, and less offensive Str BMs as they might not dominate as much.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 3:48:57)

Very well, then perhaps a buff to SA wouldn't hurt hence giving BHs a buff as well.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 3:57:21)

Indeed, perhaps keeping %s the same but give other bonus to it which wouldn't be OP. Perhaps chance to Connect on Strike could be added, I mean just strike? It's Energy-limited class unless you train it so soulds quite fair as most of the builds use it quite often + effect is not OP. Lvl 10 could give 5% more (1% per 2 Levels) so it ain't that bad on just Strike + CHs could use it well with SC when buffed and Plasma gone. Seems good? :D
I think SC is counted as Strike as it's not a skill but gives you Energy back when using it, so correct me on that one if not. :)



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