RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 12:10:39)

Yes Goony, but how will that balance out? I mean Plasma Bolt/Fireball does 45 damage at Lvl 34 and with average Dex, my Overload does same damage and Stuns on top of it - something is wrong here, no?
Just make all skills scale less by stats and add Level scaling which is already used on some skills so it wouldn't be too much of a hassle or just use Goony's idea for enhancements. Both lower the power down and make it less abuseable, won't you agree?

Besides Void's idea revolved around all skills not even improving at all by stats, that's a definite no for that suggestion already. It fits for Heal, but making damaging skills the same way would be quite boring as you'd see everyone with same damage but different variations.

@below
If it's how about Titan doesn't want to change his creation (the game), I don't want to hear it. The idea itself won't be happening so I have nothing to argue about as it's seriously pointless.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 12:31:06)

Balance?! BALANCE!!!


Okie...time to get on topic.


I have a level 17 techmage. I am a high dex build...yet...I am always getting killed by some mages who seem to think that having 23-28 resistance and max plasma bolt is truly champion... :/

The rest of us mages are trying to survive while the casters are destroying us! LOL... HELP :D



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 15:53:10)

Dear Trans,

You had stated yourself, that you also support to not improve skills by stats as seen in:

quote:

Just make all skills scale less by stats and add Level scaling which is already used on some skills so it wouldn't be too much of a hassle or just use Goony's idea for enhancements. Both lower the power down and make it less abuseable, won't you agree?


Now, to defend my suggestion,

quote:

Besides Void's idea revolved around all skills not even improving at all by stats, that's a definite no for that suggestion already. It fits for Heal, but making damaging skills the same way would be quite boring as you'd see everyone with same damage but different variations. \


Trans, "quite boring" is personal opinion, please read the book before judging this suggestion by it's cover.

"Everyone having the same damage" is not necessarily true. This claim is only correct if 2 players of the same class, of the same level, have the same build. Level-scaling or level-conforming for skills would be used as a basis. What it really comes down to, is the methods of the user and where skill points are allocated. These are not often mimicked easily, especially with random chance (critical strike/first turn) involved, which also aids in how diversity would be preserved.

When "different variations" is implied, what I have stated above can only be more assured.

quote:

If it's how about Titan doesn't want to change his creation (the game), I don't want to hear it. The idea itself won't be happening so I have nothing to argue about as it's seriously pointless.


"If it's how about Titan doesn't want to change his creation" is not what I am nor will be replying. Please avoid these brash assumptions, it could only lead to discriminate, and that only breeds hate. Our lead programmers would be able to make this change because it requires if not average time to release, then less. The process only wishes on the deletion of code, not any appendage to the existing code that runs EpicDuel. Appendages may need twice or thrice the amount of time to implement opposed to removals. We also have Rabblefroth, who will be a second mind to spot and assist Titan in the action plan of this suggestion. This is for overall balance, strategy, and peace of mind.

You said, "the idea itself won't be happening so I have nothing to argue about as it's seriously pointless". Well, no worries, if you have any questions, I am willing to answer. I am still your friend for now, Trans.

EDIT: Oh! And we can look at it this way, since stats and skills have been divided, you would be able to see Dexterity Mercenaries with Surgical Strike or Intimidate, or even Strength Tech Mages with Technician or Plasma Rain. This, would be very different.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 16:05:46)

Well, didn't I kinda use your idea? I wouldn't mind more Level-scaled skills but not completely by level, my reasons are given and you're free to disagree with them, we can't all agree can we?
I still don't get the different variations, sorry but if it's level scaled (not by stats) then you will see same damage for everyone but variation is the level of a given skill - if you have something else in mind, please tell me/us instead as it saves time and posts of course and we can get to main point straight away. Shouldn't an argument have a back-up? [8D]

By last sentence you quoted I was implying what we spoke about once, you do remember it and I simply wanted you to avoid saying it as I do know why and could be taken differently on Forum than msn so it also saves time.

All you suggested once was skills not improving by stats. Giving more explanation would be appreciated before we jump into arguments and I DO agree with your views on it but not for all skills. Heal may be fine, there could be more skills that'd be fine with it but diversity is created by variation in stats/builds, not talking about abusers but overall. What I could say would fit level scaling is Stun skills which are obviously used strategically and are weak in some cases but having pure damaging skills would be a no as diversity is disappearing between builds. And definitely EMP could work in same way as it improves by stats and can be really deadly, I mean taking off about 40 Energy which is hard to get back, and Tanking takes it even further.



BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 16:08:07)

I'll just be blunt about it
Its frustrating for lvl 29s like my current characters ( A Balanced Mercenary) having to deal with some random person with 80 dex because he bought a tonne of varium
The enhancements on varium gear IS WAY TOO OVERPOWRED
The BloodMages are dominant in almost any case and the Tactical mercenaries need to have the poison grenade remove or replaced by the Bounty Hunter stun grenade
The latest update to mercenaries with the rage % increase skill is ludicrous
Why?
1-Its at the bottom , you have to waste like 3 poitns to get to it
2-Its 20% At max
3-You can invest in other skills instead and it would be much more help

Mercenaries SHOULD have some sort of regain stat like the other classes , BH regains health when they deal damage , TMs Regain Energy when they get hit
While the big mindless husk , the mercenary gets torn a new one

It would be neat if we had some sort of Str Per Damage taken stat , since mercenaries are meant to be big heavy hitters



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 16:12:56)

^
TLM already have stun grenades.
CH don't have a passive regain, they have static which regains energy once every couple turns. Mercenaries technically can regain health with surgical strike. So there are 2 classes without a passive regain but all classes can regain something.



BadLT -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 16:14:26)

My Bad , i Rarely meet one , and they generally destroy me
Should be replaced anyhow , its just overkill o.o



XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 16:17:40)

I just noticed something scary...that or a testament to bad luck...
I was bored and made a brand new, shiny, merc.
And out of five battles with the lv 1 city guard, I lost three battles. The first two he blocked my starting double strike, the second he critted with 24 damage ;w;
Is the mercenary that weak where I can no longer start off with a clean record?

Ah...back when I first made a merc, a month or so before the dex req on HA, I had a perfect streak until about lv 8-9
This just came as a bit of a shock to me, losing three of my first 5 fights...that's the first time I've ever had a ratio under 50% ;w;

This is just great...I can't even seem to get my feet off of the ground...I'm starting to think it's just luck... IE getting blocked and critted at least once every match despite having the same exact stats ;w;
Health packs don't even make a difference...

Deleted post in between. ~TG



fhiz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 17:33:03)

I just want to add a little to the whole caster mage thing.

About a week to a week and a half ago ago, I decided to make a caster tm.

It is completely F2p.

It's solo record is 1943 wins and 377 losses and maybe 20 of those are npcs.

Last Friday I was on the leader board with over 800 wins at an almost 87% win ratio.


I want to know if it is really overpowered or if it is just a good build. It's clearly not unbeatable. A half decent strength bounty hunter can kill me and I don't stand a chance against a blood mage with a physical primary and energy armor. A cyber hunter tank will out last my energy. With low support, It seems I get critical'd every other hit and I never block.


I don't really have an opinion on if they're over powered or not. This is just what I know about them.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 17:48:30)

fhiz I have been using the Caster build since Beta(legit since beta) it is a great build for quick wins because if the enemy has low res and health it just destroys them but I have also noticed that BM CH TLM and in some cases normal mercs can overcome this build with either brute strength or an extra energy defense from passives or Blood Armor. Also with most caster builds our support and attack are not the greatest so an EMP or high str atom smasher can really ruin out day for a round or the whole battle as well as the fact that we get critted pretty bad because of a low or mid support.

So is it an OP'ed build maybe if your not set up to fight it but it is not so OP'ed as to say that it would take a very specialized build just to beat it.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 18:00:02)

quote:

Well, didn't I kinda use your idea? I wouldn't mind more Level-scaled skills but not completely by level, my reasons are given and you're free to disagree with them, we can't all agree can we?


Why yes, yes we can.

quote:

I still don't get the different variations, sorry but if it's level scaled (not by stats) then you will see same damage for everyone but variation is the level of a given skill - if you have something else in mind-


We should consider that if all skills were valued equally and therefor balanced, variation could mean that absolutely any build combination would no longer be underpowered or overpowered, and battles would be more so determined by strategy of the player (and first turn).

Controlled by level (level scaling)... and maybe... controlled by concession. What this entails is if skills are used in specified combinations then special perks will be acquired.

Example for a Tech Mage:

Uses Defense Matrix, uses Technician (Defense Matrix & Technician combo... bonus to Technology)

This feature could reinforce tactile thinking in EpicDuel by having players develop war plans mid-battle in the ongoing race to diminish the enemy's health to 0. Sounds fun to me, anyone?

quote:

Shouldn't an argument have a back-up?


Sometimes it just helps to let ideas slide off the tongue and then we can ask questions and courteously discuss the pros and cons together.

quote:

By last sentence you quoted I was implying what we spoke about once, you do remember it and I simply wanted you to avoid saying it as I do know why and could be taken differently on Forum than msn so it also saves time.


I understand, yet I also know that many of the PvP's imbalances spring from the core of the battle system(s). 3-hit energy improving Supercharge is just one example of improvements destroying PvP at it's finest. If we attack this feature at it's heart then overpowered build types thanks to an agreement causing overpowered skills ("techniques") will all fall and never again rise because of stat abuse (exploitation sounds more clean).

quote:

Giving more explanation would be appreciated before we jump into arguments and I DO agree with your views on it but not for all skills.


Fair, I cannot have you believe at the snap of my fingers that Malfunction for example is imbalanced. For a Support Tech Mage offence and defence are high, and for a Strength Tech Mage offence is high but defence is low, and this is just because of a preference in stats.

quote:

What I could say would fit level scaling is Stun skills which are obviously used strategically and are weak in some cases but having pure damaging skills would be a no as diversity is disappearing between builds.


Today I find that Technology is common in the Reroute classes. Tactical Mercenaries and Tech Mages abuse Technology, giving vastly powerful: Surgical Strike, Plasma Bolt, and Plasma Rain. With health they are often fortified against energy, and even when physical attacks are used against them, Reroute still returns the energy to recast a powerful attack. I attribute this back to skills improving with stats. Without this bond, the severity of those attacks would be considerably reduced and it would not be an issue to be dealt with in this coming update.



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 18:03:52)

Ways to beat an "OP" Caster Build (For CH and TLM)

EMP/Atom Smash until they have no more Energy.

Start doing 3 Damage with Energy attacks and more with Physical (They will do 3 Damage too with a good tank build)

Start Heal Looping (They cannot copy because well, they are out of Energy)

Just do not let them get up to 29 Energy....

You pretty much won....







Another thing....If we build all these counters to Tanks all melee classes will have to resort to STR builds...And then me complain about a counter for STR builds....



fhiz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 18:12:11)

@ One winged angel 1357

It's good to have input from someone experienced with the build seeing as the only other experience I have with tech mages is support (use to be fun but it's been nerfed.)

You're right that it doesn't take a specific build to beat us. I think part of it is people don't use enough common sense. Like a bounty hunter who put one point of emp just to get stun grenade and if they'd just use it, they could win. Same go's for cybers who ignore def matrix, they have one point on it by default.

I don't know, I'm just going to be sad to see it nerfed because it's such a fun build.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 18:18:17)

@fhiz Plasma Bolt is currently being bolstered by a six point damage buff from Gamma(unless they removed that buff when rebalancing skills) so chances are if a nerf is coming to Plasma bolt it will be to remove some or all of that buff



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 18:25:10)

Almost 30 pages, so we have to make an agreement.

Caster TM is OP only to Merc. To me as a Cyber, in order to survive, i MUST EMP/heal/booster/static my way through these builds, and i beat them about 80% of the time. BUT to other classes it differs, so for Mercs, GIVE THEM BACK ORIGINAL HYBRID. And make HYBRID CHANGEABLE TO DEF OR RES!!!

Now about the buffing of BH, give SA a revamp, possibly increase BL by another %.

CH, remake Static either higher, or into a lust. Takeaway PA for technician, make SA revamped or into DA from BM hence BMs receive SA over DA.

BM, as G00ny has posted, Zerk-Assim is obviously not countering much of STR builds, but taking a tier 1 skill is a bit out of hand. Don't forget that STR builds are gone if we switch zerk and DA.

TM needs a buff at LOWER/MID LEVELS. I have just made a mage alt, lost to city guard lv1 3 TIMES. TM needs a small buff to overload, it's damage compared to other stuns is just plain weak. Buff it up by 2 damage. And Caster TM is also quite OP on lower levels, i was against a lv7 and i was also lv7 with a pretty good build, when he PB (plasma bolt) me and it dealt about 26 dmg. I died in about 3-4 rounds. So Caster needs a small nerf, or buff up other classes to make it in par with.

ENH PROBLEM, i thought that the 8 base stats per lvl up was a GREAT idea, but the problem is refunding, so i think that has to be dished out. The ENH on not affecting skills however was good idea, hopefully mods can look into that.

Now, any agreements or disagreements to these ideas we have all figured out?



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 18:28:43)

@Arevero make that some Mercs and I agree TLM BM CH and BH have no brainer skills to defeat a Caster mage. Merc has to have Atom Smasher(way down in the right corner below maul, which is another underrated skill IMHO) to pull out our true weakness but everyone else tends to have one ro more skill to pull out our weakness in most "OP'ed" builds



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 18:28:46)

I dont have a problem with a tech mage in the lower levels.


I have a level 17 tech mage who has blasted her way through the lower levels. AND NOT WITH CASTER.

I am an extreme dex build on her with high support and LOW health :)



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 18:47:58)

@Arevero,

quote:

Takeaway PA for Technician


Again, Energy Shield produces a much better synergy by far. Support is not touched by any nerf or buffing skill, whereas Technician is totally conditional on Dexterity, so if a Cyber Hunter wanted protection from energy but did not use Dexterity, Technician would barely handle any loss in Resistance. Basic stat buffs also directly contribute to abuse and exploit. Cyber Hunters need a strong source of protection, when you were off playing AQW when new classes were released, I was one of the 5 Cyber Hunters requesting an upgrade from Technician because it did not defend us very well from Malfunction or energy casting in general. Just see this Design Note about the change to Plasma Armour.

It is clear that staff agrees that Energy Shield is a more reliable source of protection, they gave Blood Mage this skill because I quote, "gives BM higher energy resistance"!

That is exactly what Cyber Hunter needs! We have enough offensive power, Technician lacks in defence. Plasma Armour in synergy is overpowered, so remove it we must do.

Your other suggestions for Cyber Hunters are OK by my standards, Deadly Aim may have synergy with Static Charge and Malfunction though (Strength).



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 18:53:21)

@Depressed

You know what Void, it was fun arguing with you over TECHNICIAN and ES, i forfeit ok? xD
BUT, what i do not want is that we might get nerfed when we get ES, we either lose malf or DM, something i HIGHLY DISAGREE WITH. If you can guarantee we won't lose those 2 skills, i will directly stop the DA synergize switch and will not complain abotu giving CH's ES.

Deal?[:D]



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 19:19:01)

quote:

You know what Void, it was fun arguing with you over TECHNICIAN and ES, i forfeit ok? xD


Aw no no, Technician is a good option as well, if only it would affect Resistance directly then it would have the power to defend Cyber Hunters well enough.

quote:

BUT, what i do not want is that we might get nerfed when we get ES, we either lose malf or DM, something i HIGHLY DISAGREE WITH.


We must keep Defense Matrix no matter what. Would it be cool if we got to be the first class to own both? I think so! Since our passives define us as not benefiting from taking damage or giving damage (lack of Reroute/Bloodlust), the ability to spend a turn just to defend from physical (DM), or energy (ES), is totally appropriate because our reliable skill happens to be an active skill known as Static Charge and Static Charge only benefits energy. I can tell that we will be able to keep both.

Malfunction though, it becomes conditional. 3 great skills improving by Support, that can become an abusive conflict. If Energy Shield ever became ours, Malfunction may need to improve by Dexterity, is that OK? I would say Dexterity because it becomes equal to Smokescreen, and Smokescreen already improves by Technology. Does that sound balanced?

quote:

Deal?


Deal.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 19:24:54)

@Void

APPROVED, Malf into dex improvement, i like it, and yes would be cool to have 2 shields in 1, but i hope they also put in the ENH situation, or else people in CH will start dex abusement all over again O.o.

It's a deal.

Anyway else in objection?

All in favour?




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 19:43:40)

Technician for Tech Mages could improve with Support if Malfunction improves with Dexterity.

quote:

Smokescreen improves with Technology and Reflex Boost improves with Support.


That is the last step into this suggested version of balance, the identical skills become equal opposites.

I wonder what kind of reliable passive skill Cyber Hunters could own to replace Shadow Arts though? Deadly Aim is always an option.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 19:54:35)

It is mainly that some mages complain abotu giving us Cybers that skill, and the fact that it will synergize with our STR builds, other than that, DA as a CH passive would be fine. On the otherhand we are taking BMs DA, not TMs DA. So it will lower BMs STR synergizing.

And yes, Technician could do with support since it's a stat boost like reflex, hence should have the same improvement.



od -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 20:41:48)

quote:

an EMP or high str atom smasher can really ruin out day for a round or the whole battle as well as the fact that we get critted pretty bad because of a low or mid support.

Only problem is that bloodmages don't have edrainer, so even as a "op" str blood Mage I always get destroyed by casters ( except BM casters since they don't have reroute to use their skills as freely



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 20:53:01)

I think ya'll are forgetting something. If you take plasma armor from CH you better take mineral armor from tacmerc. The whole reason they made those 2 skills was to balance eachother, which is also why they switched hybrid to what it is now. If they left mineral armor and took plasma it would make tlm the only viable tank option.



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