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Stabilis -> All-Time Leaderboards, and possibility for Phase Leaderboards. (3/16/2012 14:25:58)
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From the "Balance Discussion" hehehe:
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JZaanu said:
What enhancements and class-change also done is super excelled the All-time Leader boards too. With opportunity, many players class-changed into the loop hole builds, and dominated with speed and ratio.
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PivotalDisorder said:
With that in mind, why are most of the "forum" community against an eventual leaderboard reset [if game becomes relatively balanced] or phase leaderboards.
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JZaanu said:
Pivotal, you bring up an interesting angle.
The All-time boards represent a global effort since the game began. It shows the players who have invested the most into the game with their effort. It also provides a face as a representation as the games most elite players.
On the negative side, it promotes only the top 15. And sadly, for a person to maintain their spot, they must be continually active and an extremely high rate of approximate 150-250 wins a day. To achieve the quickest wins, many players class-changed also used their enhancements for high ratio builds that could be deemed exploitive.
In one way, it is positive but, in another, it is tiring and endless.
I feel the game will be more interesting if this system was broken down in game stages, where it does reset. A player can compete for that term, and if they finish within top 15 they can earn an achievement and a mark in Epic Duel History.
As of now, I can give an example if both Comical Biker and Fay Beee retired from this game tomorrow, within a given amount of time, they will be eventually be removed from the list, and there will be no official recorded history of them ever being placed on the top other then their own efforts (screen photos, movies), and players who remained in the game (Word of Mouth).
The all-time board is a difficult board to be part of, and overtime, is it really worth it?
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I said:
When Delta ends, let us create a hall of fame for everyone who is on the all-time leaderboards (I am not on any for your information). The hall of fame allows players to approach a plaque or statue and directly fame the winners and view their statistics.
Then we can remove the all-time leaderboards.
Then we can add phase leaderboards. For the next phase... Epsilon I believe?
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PivotalDisorder said:
My original suggestion [which got heavily flamed] was that the current All-time leaderboards would be immortalised on an ED webpage forever [until game shuts down] and phase
leaderboards introduced. would be far more incentive to play regularly if their was something you could actually achieve. doubt any gamma/delta players will ever make the solo or
team leaderboard while older players have such a massive headstart AND had far longer to "abuse" the latest OP class/build combos.
secondly, each players personal record would remain the same, so if you checked Comicalbiker's char page, you could still see how many total wins he has regardless of phase.
I do understand class-loyal players like Fay Beee earned her spot on the leaderboards but can you really say the same for most of the others?
and although BH are arguably a bit underpowered right now, STR BH was no1 build in 1v1 for a long time, even she got a lot of free wins from imbalance.
@Depressed: Couldn't call it a hall of fame though due to fame being an actual feature, but that is the idea i was getting at.
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But I said the hall was used to view the all-time and fame them. :/
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JZaanu said:
The All-Time Board is a part of history, and the players representing that board over time are part of it. Somethings are very difficult to let go, due to, being part of their history. But as this game progresses, certain elements that require a continued commitment at any costs become very difficult to bear.
I was lucky to see Sparticus over-take Gamal during that past stages of the game. I remembered, at that time, I never thought anyone would surpass it. Now it is only a story.
After Sparticus became all-time leader, Angel Holocaust was next in line. I fondly remember while we were both at our mid 20's in level range, she told me she was going to be the top player. And with hard work, like Sparticus, she did achieve it. Now, with time passing, this is another story.
These are just 2 players, and there are so many more who made an impact on both circuits, and by sectionalizing, players can be officially remembered and immortalized as a part of Epic Duel History.
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Doctor Dragon said:
Jzaanu i don't like that idea people have worked very hard for it. if it was to get remade or deleted. people in all time boards would feel abit ripped off if u know what i mean. like all the hours they've put into this game inorder to reach that pace in all time leaderboards.
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Lord Nub said:
^ Not really balanced related but this keeps popping up.
Why not just have monthly boards?
No reason to rip others off by deleting the all-time and no reason making i impossible for others to be on a board.
Update it once every 24 hours like the all-time board and it should be essentially lag free. If boards create so much lag, why does the daily update so often? Don't see a problem with new boards updating once every 24 hours...Also gives players more to shoot for.
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PivotalDisorder said:
@Lord Nub,
Lag was the issue many put forth for having no more leaderboards. if that idea is possible then I think I support it.
but
all-time leaderboards are a joke anyway. but hey, I am not really allowed to comment on them because apparently it means I am jealous.
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JZaanu said:
Though technically not a pvp balance issue, it is a game and community balance.
For players who did achieve on entering this board, a special achievement should be awarded.
About people feeling taken advantage of due to their hard work in being and maintaining their position on this board, other then status, there nothing awarded to their faction, or themselves. It is a goal to achieve with no prize. Unless those individuals plan on obtaining 150-250+ victors daily for their remaining playing careers, they will be eventually slowly dropping down in the order, and finally, not even on the board at all.
As suggested, having a special top 15 achievement for being on the phase once is concludes, and maybe an extra bonus for the player who is the top person either daily and the final standing.
Likely another battle record would be created. Phase mode record, and to make it very competitive, no npcs either. Strictly battle-mode victors. What will happen, the inflated totals and ratio of 1v1 due to npcs will decline into the 65-75% victor ratio. With Juggernaut and 2v2, those battle modes will also be recognized as well.
Sounds exciting and very balanced to me. Pick your mode and get those achievements for phase champions.
Uniquely enough, this topic of eliminating the board was mentioned and discussed on the old forums. At the time, the game was so new and the debate for it was not strong enough. The time has seemed to have arrived, and only good competition can come from this.
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PivotalDisorder said:
@Jzaanu,
Love the idea of removing NPC wins from the Leaderboard count, although I think they should still give XP and credits to aid levelling.
it is about time the community got some features that favour both the old timers AND new players.
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JZaanu said:
Only for the Phase pvp play, npcs should not count in regard to win totals.
For personal record
yes
For faction competition
yes
For experience and credits
yes
tokens
yes
On a side note, not all players will be able to compete in such a demanding competition, so maybe the top 15 players will get a community badge for the phase for their efforts in being a positive role model and promoting the game. Since we have social networks to increase our demographics, players who invest their time in helping, promoting and being an example should also be rewarded too. This would be determined by staff and AKs.
Epic Duel is doing some amazing things in their development, we are the best representation of it.
Being recognized for pvp dedication, and recognition for exemplary community service. Balance.
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Archlord Raistlin said:
As for all-time boards...how could you even consider complaining it away? It's like saying I don't make as much
money as you, it will take a long time for me to make that much, so to be fair you should make the same as I do...
Awesome entitlement life lesson...
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JZaanu said:
Archlord, the analogy you given is not correct with the information and thoughts I have supplied.
But since you are on the Leaderboard for 2v2, what have you gained from it aside from being noted as a highly active player.
If you ever lessen your activity in this game, and your position drops from the board where your name is not even part of the top 15, would you like to be remembered for your efforts during your peak activity?
The Leaderboard is a reflective example what challenges this game has. By making it within phases, everyone has an opportunity, and all players who have achieved top 15 when the phase ends will be immortalized.
Archlord, you and along with many others will one day not be on those boards, that will eventually happen as it has happened in the past.
These boards need to be revamped and be part of the community. As of now, it only signifies effort and status.
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Comicalbiker said:
Jzaanu thankyou for your post i have been thinking about that for a very long time all we have is a name and we never get an achievement .a player said to me yesterday congratulations for getting 200,000 and does it feel good,
i said no i get nothing for it at all so why should i feel good about it,the leader-board is pointless really as all 15 of us get nothing at all, so what you say is correct, so the question is really why should i Cary on playing .the answer is the game is in development , can i wait that long ,i don't
know, but thank-you for putting my name in your post, and thank-you for having me in your faction in the early days it was good.please dont delete this post.
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Shadronica said:
In actual fact I do remember the dev's mentioning the exact same thing you are saying Jzaanu. Proper and due acknowledgement was supposed to be awarded to anyone who had made it on the all time leaderboard. They were going to implement that right after I had decided to retire my alt Shadist from the 2v2 all time leader board. So yes that idea was left behind in the old EDF.
I would dearly love to have something to show for the fact that I spent 6 months slogging it out in 2v2 to maintain my position on the all time leaderboard. As I was running two factions and had my founder and 2 other alts I felt that remaining on the leaderboard had little to offer me apart from a tiny piece of prestige that usually only made the other players want to beat the heck out of me by fair means or foul. Considering also that my win ratio was only second to FJ at that time.
I think Archie missed the point you were trying to make there Jzaanu. We definately would not wish to wipe out the leaderboards but just acknoweledge the players who have dedicated a great deal of time and effort to make it on there.
Thank you comicalbike for a very honest post and thank you for your dedication to give players a goal to achieve (both you and Fay Bee). I remember you when you first started and you had to fight your way onto the all time leaderboard too.
Yes it would be nice to have some token of achievement.
Congratz comical.
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Zeoth said:
You all have some very good points about the the all-time leader board.
Sure it takes hard work to get up there but what do u get in return? Jack didily squat.
There needs to be some real recOnigition. I also agree with phase leader boards. A testament to the hard
Working new phase players.
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Archlord Raistlin said:
@Jzaanu,
Your thoughts and intent were not solely the reason for my reply. It sounds like a good idea to add a new
phased board, one which gives every new player an equal chance to make an impact. To me, the leaderboard
is a "living" achievement, and yes i enjoy the endless chase against Hope, Morrigan and Miraged... sure, one
day I will not be on the board at all, which is part of life, but for now it provides me and every other player a
target to shoot for. Why is that anti-community? It's one aspect of the game, not some huge disincentive...
There are many players on the brink of getting on the board and that's frustrating and fun at the same time.
I also remember how gamal would never talk, holocost was and still is a "win at all costs" player, how vegitix
manipulated the game to the detriment of everyone and buffy bought her way to faction dominance... these
are all good stories, part of the history of the game, maybe heresay, and I'm sure could be debated endlessly.
I don't think anyone on the all-time expects a lifetime achievement award and if someone remembers us in the
future for good or bad...eh, it's probably all good in either case.
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JZaanu said:
Archlord, ty much for your honest reply. It aided me in thinking about exactly what is missing.
Reading your post, and adding more thought, you are very correct the All-time board should not be removed. What the all-time board represents it is the longevity of players in this game. The most passionate players who love this game will be on that list directly by making a strong effort, or passively by consistent play. When we view other events of competitive nature, they all have some type of All-time list. That being said, this All-time should be expanded to top 100.
We have daily events, and so what is missing?
In the previous posts, we discussed about phase, referring to, game phases. The only difficulty with this is, when does it end, and when does it begin. It is extremely difficult to plan and coordinate an honest effort when the bases of phases is game development, and not competitive.
To improve upon the phase element, the game is only missing seasonal. Epic Duel, in terms with events, and within the story-line, there are seasons. If the game created an actual calendar and an real seasons like Summer, Spring, Fall, and Winter, these could become 4 competitive seasons. Why 4? Due to players schedules, some have outside responsibilities, and these players could coordinate it better for definite times. By doing this as well, everyone can participate from level 1 to cap. The past has no coralation on seasonal competing. The top 15 would get a special achievement like 2012 Spring top 15 achievement or 2012 Spring Champion for the top placing player. By having the seasonal competitive mode, it will bridge the gap that daily and all-time has left.
If we added certain criteria like...
1) No NPCS
2) No Class Change. If they do, their the current seasonal victors will be reset to 0.
This will aid in better balance for the game without players compromising balance by seeking loop hole builds in the middle of competition.
Players who only enjoy and play for All-time, just let them play as they wish.
I appreciate all the responses and ideas on this community balance sub-topic.
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