RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (Full Version)

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Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/17/2012 18:22:36)

Just out of curiosity, when is Omega phase coming :3



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/17/2012 18:25:59)

quote:

If you get 16-20 primary damage, max mass, +34 damage from blades massacre's damage would be the following:
34*1.4 = 47.6 (rounded to 48)
47.6 + 16-20
Final damage range: 64-68 damage


When I used my Max Massacre build with 16-20 +34 Primary it did more then 64-68 damage. I could easily hit over 100 damage. That is after defenses. Againts Varium level 34 players who know how to play I hitted around 70-80 damage. So, might the calculation be a bit incorrect?




Illuminator -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/17/2012 18:56:36)

@Wootz: Are you sure that you added correctly? I'll check that I have the correct calculations, I could be wrong. I think that's correct, but I'll check.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/17/2012 19:11:21)

I checked your calculation via your formula and it was correct. And, yes I am sure that the ammount I wrote is correct, I have a video about those massacres on YouTube.

Massacres:
5-5-8-8-6-6-Something - that is 38 Damage, already. By looking at HP, Dollars had 70, he had 1 left, so it taken away 69 HP, which is out of your damage range already. Fight #1
7-7-11-11-9-9-45 - 99 damage, way past your range, opponents resistance 0-0+1, so the range is around 100 if looking at the damage and Resistance in this Massacre. Fight #4
7-7-10-10-9-9-39 - 91 damage. Read above. Fight #6 (last one)

And this is just my recourd in a controlled battle. Link
8-8-12-12-10-10-48 = 108 damage
8-8-13-13-11-11-47 = 111 damage (my record)

So, I belive that the formula you've used is completly wrong.



Midnightsoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/17/2012 23:02:58)

High levels of massacre are OP'ed, so it should not keep increasing in the same rate as the previous lvls, it needs to slow down as it progresses.

Blood mage is still OP'ed. I do not know how to fix that. I think fireball should have a support requirement, but a low one.

damage bonuses from focus can be brought back (optional) or just buff each bot by 3 damage points

Azrael Bot's effect lowered to 50%


-Midnightsoul









Nemesis39 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/17/2012 23:41:12)

I have been playing this game for 3 years now, and I started playing this game as a mercenary. For the past 3 years in a row, this game been nerf-ing down mercenaries over and over, because every time we mercenaries come up with a build to help us win more duels, we get complain to by players who use loose builds with no defense.

And now when I play as a Tactical Mercenary no matter what build I use, or any strategy I use. I end up losing badly to Cyber Hunters, because my smoke screen skill has been replaced by a useless skill, while they have their Malfunction skill. If Cyber Hunter where supposed to be the opposite of Tactical Mercenaries, then why did Smoke screen get removed from Tactical Mercenaries?

It doesn't sound fair to nerf down Tactical Mercenary class to the ground, the buff all other class.

-Nemesis30



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/17/2012 23:48:09)

^
Field commander useless? LOL
Smoke increase physical damage for 3 turns and lowers your opponent's block chance.
FC increases both energy and physical damage for 4 turns AND costs less.
If the luck in this game wasn't so screwed up then FC would be the better choice almost all the time.

When did they say TLM and CH were supposed to be opposites?



Nemesis39 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 0:02:14)

Yes Field Commander is a useless skill to TLM. Because they don't have a higher dmg skill. It would have been useful IF they added Berzerker skill to TLM.

They become the opposites of each other, when they added "Plasma Armor" & "Mineral Armor". and Because of Plasma Armor, CH can now higher dexterity to help them block more AND if that wasn't enough they also have Also have "Shadow Arts" with higher dexterity, they will block and crit more often than they should.






Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 0:15:32)

@^: High Sup High STR build. ENH into Tech. Full Mineral Armor.

Have high field commander, high artilerry strike.

Aux -> Multi -> Field Commander -> Bash away.

Try it maybe. Just thinking.

Balance this week please. Anything.



Nemesis39 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 0:23:37)

^
high lvl Healing takes lost of energy.

higher Aux & multi also needs higher energy.

If I have FC, Multi, and Healing. I will lose Reroute. which I need to gain back the energy I lost for FC and Artillery Strike.

with 1 emp, I will done for.

I've tried thinking my friend, and I have used all those builds before. if you are so sure about it. why not try it yourself?

Don't judge a class, unless you've tried it yourself.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 0:27:05)

@^: Just by looking at the synergy of the build. I'm a CH.

Just merely suggesting, IDK. Looking at the TLM tree, seems like SUP builds should still work.

SUP = High Chance to go First = High Aux Damage = High Multi = High Field Commander = High Strikes and stuff.

With Mineral Armor = put more points into TECH, maybe even a relatively good SS? Again, not sure. Just by looking at what the skills improve with, that's what I can say. EMPs hurt everything, and so do Atom Strikes (does TLM have Atom Strike?)


Level 34 = 33 Skill Points

10 into Mineral Armor
~5 into Field Commander
~6-8 into Multi
~7-10 into Reroute
~1-2 into Atom (if TLM has)
Remaining points (if any) into Frenzy?

IDK, just thinking aloud here. Totally have no clue, you are right, but that's a build I'd like to try out and see as a TLM. Don't see why it doesn't work. EMP grenades/Atom Smash are a universal problem, so it isn't just TLM here. (Even CH get EMPd against each other and it's >.>)



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 0:30:54)

What I think is that the scaling for Massacre should be nerfed.

Level 1- 50%- Same
Level 2- 56%
Level 3- 62%
Level 4- 68%
Level 5- 74%
Level 6- 80%
Level 7- 85%
Level 8- 90%
Level 9- 95%
Level 10-100%



Nemesis39 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 0:36:15)

@Joe10112

Like I said, I did try using Support build.

Artillery Strike is still not strong enough, not only that if I got hit by an EMP...
by the time I wait for my AUx to cool down, and the turn I use FC or Heal, I would already be dead.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 0:40:49)

@^: Again, i wouldn't know for sure. I'm not a TLM, I'm just looking at it from a Synergy standpoint.

But yeah, as a CH, I am forced to turn to a Tankish build as a nonvar. coupled with the fact that I have a E armor as a CH doesn't help me.

Balance is needed for BMs. Have Fireball increase with SUP. Why not? Makes SUP more useful, and takes away the Bludgeon + Fireball STR ombo.




D.v.D. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 0:44:46)

Nemesis39
I pm'd you a build, it's what I personally use in 1v1.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 2:15:54)

So far most of the Passive armored class I've seen is mainly tanking, what does this tell you?

I'd say mainly that it means there is a problem with it, of course, free defences gives you plenty more left over points to spare, in which case people still put into defences, known as Tanking or Power builds.

The outcome is they receive lowdmg-input, this way, they are almost untouchable, not to mention the ability to heal. Hybrid's split was a good decision, CH and TLMs passive armors should be re-wired so it is used in a such a way that it doesn't promote tanking.





King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 12:54:41)

quote:

If you get 16-20 primary damage, max mass, +34 damage from blades massacre's damage would be the following:
34*1.4 = 47.6 (rounded to 48)
47.6 + 16-20
Final damage range: 64-68 damage


When I used my Max Massacre build with 16-20 +34 Primary it did more then 64-68 damage. I could easily hit over 100 damage. That is after defenses. Againts Varium level 34 players who know how to play I hitted around 70-80 damage. So, might the calculation be a bit incorrect?


Your formula is correct but how you did it after multiplying was clearly wrong. When it says 140% more damage, you have to also add the weapon damage itself to the product 48. Which means 34 * 1.4 + 34 = 82 + 16-20

Final Damage Range : 98-102



steven11113 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 14:33:20)

Too much damage toward the other player but no helath back for u [:@]

Lower the massace down from 12% to 8%, 10% to 6% and 8% to 5% but give player back 30% health back

Since mercency still underpower , i think mercency should add chance to stun on every successful hit
Like this on top of Adrenaline

Lvl chance to stun, increase rage rate and defending rage rate, the rage rate drop a bit since i combine 2 into 1

1 4%
2 6%
3 7%
4 8%
5 9%
6 10%
7 11%
8 12%
9 13%
10 14%


Most mercency dont want to invest 6 or higher since there support requirement



Illuminator -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 14:51:43)

King Frostlich:
The reason that I did it that way was because I am pretty sure that it was changed to be damage = (base damage + (weapon damage x % bonus) as a way to make leveling up % based skills actually worth it, and it was also an effective nerf to strength builds. Checking back through the design notes it was changed in Delta 1.3.1
quote:

Percent based skills (Double Strike, Berzerker, Massacre and Bludgeon) will work differently than they had previously. How it works right now is that they’re calculated by base damage + weapon damage - [defense/resistance]) x % bonus = your damage. After this update, it will look more like Deadly Aim, in that your damage = (base damage + (weapon damage x % bonus))- [defense/resistance]. This should be a buff for builds that do not rely entirely on strength, but players will insane amounts of strength should see a slight reduction in damage. The goal was to encourage deeper investment in skills that scale too well with only one point of investment. The percents for all of the skills affected by this change have been adjusted.

So unless it was changed back to how it was originally {(base damage+weapon damage) x % bonus} without me knowing, that should be correct.



Rui.. -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 15:06:45)

i seen so many people complain here. Frankly i have played a cyber and emp skill is a luxury. I used to 43 energy drain my opponents and remember them crying. Now that i changed to a blood mage i feel the pain. What good are we if we lost our energy. Our defences are way low. We get hurt tons and we get blocked like crazy cause of our low dex. Giving new classes old skill is a bad idea. The three new classes need 3 new ultimate skills. Blood mages need new ultimate that requires health instead of energy to use and skill improving with strength. Tactical merc needs something that will improve with support and consumes health and energy. And cyber needs an ultimate that improves with and tech and regains back some health. Have you ever seen a blood mage lately use super? Or a tact merc with surgical. They are plain dead skills. Deadly aim needs to add chance to connect. Some change needs to be made to help blood mages against an emp.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 15:08:15)

True, Illuminator but it's also basic math. If it says 100% more damage on 34. It means it adds 34 + 34 or just multiply it by 2 and you get 68. Adding the primary damage is just another random numbers given off.



Illuminator -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 15:30:57)

Wow I see where I messed up. haha wow, yeah that was bad. You're right, should be *2.4 not 1.4. Wow, can't believe I did that, epic math fail. In which case, you have the correct damage range. My mistake, sorry about that.

should be this:
34*2.4=81.6
82+16-20
final damage range: 98-102

In which case, yes it does do more damage than the others. The reason it does more damage is because SC and SS have other effects like was said on the previous page. However, that doesn't mean it isn't doing too much damage.



frogbones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 15:48:39)

quote:

i seen so many people complain here. Frankly i have played a cyber and emp skill is a luxury. I used to 43 energy drain my opponents and remember them crying. Now that i changed to a blood mage i feel the pain. What good are we if we lost our energy.


I would encourage all players, especially Cybers, AS WELL AS THE BALANCE TEAM, to read and re-read the above quote from rui in its entirety.

IN A PvP GAME, BALANCE IS THE PRIORITY.

Address the problem. Face it head-on. Stop wringing your hands and pontificating. Stop obfuscating. Stop acting like you can't figure it out.

You're all grown men and women. Collectively, you need to recalibrate your priorities and make balance your number-one concern. Put money, missions, and the storyline aside for one week. Engage with your paying and playing community about balance issues. Talk to us. Tell us we have good ideas. Tell uis they need work.

Something.

Anything.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 16:47:36)

quote:

Wow I see where I messed up. haha wow, yeah that was bad. You're right, should be *2.4 not 1.4. Wow, can't believe I did that, epic math fail. In which case, you have the correct damage range. My mistake, sorry about that.

should be this:
34*2.4=81.6
82+16-20
final damage range: 98-102

In which case, yes it does do more damage than the others. The reason it does more damage is because SC and SS have other effects like was said on the previous page. However, that doesn't mean it isn't doing too much damage.


Hahah, I don't blame you. Happens to everyone. Math sucks, we know!

Frogbones,
I know what you mean by that. Most of the posts here aren't really about helping the game balance and stuff, most of the things you will see here are complaints about how this class is underpowered, this one is overpowered. And because of it I really don't have a feeling that I should share my ideas here as it will:
a) get trashed because there always are some haters for every idea (true story)
b) get ignored, if its the last post on a page for example (true story)
c) get shadowed by the posts about complaints about OP and UP (true story)
d) nothing, simply nothing (true story)
And I really don't want to share it, because atleast 20% of the ideas here get one of those things that I've wrote.



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/18/2012 16:52:19)

quote:

What I think is that the scaling for Massacre should be nerfed.

Level 1- 50%- Same
Level 2- 56%
Level 3- 62%
Level 4- 68%
Level 5- 74%
Level 6- 80%
Level 7- 85%
Level 8- 90%
Level 9- 95%
Level 10-100%


Uh, Berzerker costs 15 EP less, only does 10% more Damage and is only 1 turn warm-up.

@Frogbones
quote:

Address the problem. Face it head-on. Stop wringing your hands and pontificating. Stop obfuscating. Stop acting like you can't figure it out.

is this because Merc has no Energy drain skill? If so, then I request a move like Bunker Buster for CH and BH. You see, CH and BH get EMP, an unblockable Energy skill because, why? It's because they have no instant-damage skill. They have to play slowly and strategically. Just because all the CHs you've seen are Tank build Spammers with a high EMP doesn't mean all CHs are as mindless as that. Energy control is a strategy.



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