Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (Full Version)

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Khannibal -> Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 11:53:51)

And if so, why?

I think it should due to it's current lack of uses in the metagame.
The defences and resistance of opponents is too high to smash out a massive hit with support abuse, and even if you do it's usually deflected.
The main thing that I feel would make the game more balanced and less oriented around Strength/Dex/Tech abuse tanks, bountys etc is healing.
I know quite a few abuse players that use high levelled heals with no issue, whereas those who try to make a balanced build have to pump points into shields and strength in order to compete, leaving them short.

And since tech is now the dominant stat to deflect, what advantages does support even have? To invest enough support to be effective you sacrifice Dex/Tech meaning your potential Crit will be countered anyway, and as a mage with no DoT skill or Passive armour I feel i've drawn the short end of the straw in build ideas that include support.

We can't use passive shields, tank and poison, our tank builds with top tier equipment give us around 33 base Def/Res, and while we have shields, defence matrix is improved with support, and a high level of technician is required to counter a CH's malf. I understand as a mage, caster builds are useful, but should that be our only option? Spamming Plasma bolt and waiting for Supercharge? No. I like tactical builds with options, not a succeed or don't style.

We can't use strength/dex builds, as i've shown of late, no matter how I tweak it we lack passives that stop bountys and blood mages healing off us, a dexterity lowering skill, or a passive healing skill. i understand TM's are a defensive build, i always have done, but a good Hybrid class is what makes it shine, I do feel our skills need a revamp and a breath of fresh air, as the defensive option wastes a turn and requires we invest all our points into defensive skills, while lacking other helpful ones.

What do you think?



rej -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 11:58:29)

Answer to question one: yes.
Why? Support went from being equal to all the other stats to being a worthless, nearly unusable joke. The four stat catagories should be roughly equal to one another, so having one be worthless is a huge handicap to Epic duel's balance.
Answer to question two: no.
Why? Tech Mages are already above average in strength compared to the other five classes.



Oba -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 12:07:01)

Support needs to get buffed but tech mages does not need a buff at all...



Ranloth -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 12:11:03)

Despite being a Tech Mage myself, buff would be not needed. What we may need is skill-tree rearranging for better synergy as some builds require you to have 10-11/12 skils yet you may need maybe 6 of them. For example non-Caster build with Malf, DA, maybe Assimilate and Reroute; you need all the skills but SC and you won't find any of the ones at Lvl 1 useful in the long run. This could be classed as buff itself, but direct buff to skills is a no. Although I'm for changing 2 requirements on skills which I explained in my 1st post in Balance Thread so won't bring this here. :)

Support, yes it should get a buff which Devs promised us. Healing having fixed numbers may be classed as a nerf to Support but it's more to a skill rather than the stat, but taking Deflection away without giving Support appropriate buff back then is a bit.. sad. The stat is luck-based but Aux damage which is only 'fixed' thing the stat does as well as improving some skills, but having said that, fact both Mercs have Support-based Multi does not mean stat is balanced, this applies to few people who may think so. If that's their logic - I hope to see purely high Support CH and BM in-game to prove how useful the stat is without some skills and how little it does on its own.

Khannibal, if you're looking for strategical TM then I'd advise Str builds as a TM, does well with Assimilate and decent Bludgeon as well as DA. Good defences and perhaps Delta Armor would be great with it but you can put high Dex/Tech and E/P Armor instead, whichever you think is good. Support TM is also still strategical but it's much harder after Deflection was taken away, so since then I keep changing builds (sometimes 1v1, 2v2, and focus on different stats). ^^



Khannibal -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 12:13:24)

Quick question, are you two mages?
Second question, have you been?
Third question, tell me why they don't deserve a buff, based on my statements.

I appreciate your feedback :]

EDIT: Yeah I had a really nice Strength/Dex mage build, with no Malf, 5 Bludgeon, some DA etc. but it fell short without passive defences and things like bloodlust against Bounty hunters, I always appreciate your input in that it's backed up with facts and a base rather than an opinion with no holding in this topic.



Oba -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 13:11:16)

I just changed from TM to merc, well about 2 weeks ago. Reason why I changed to it from the very first was becuase I had alot of test and such in school but I still wanted to get a few wins on ED daily. As TM had a short OP moment there I changed to that to get fast wins. It got "nerfed" (I'd call it a buff...) and the class became quite boring. Never liked these kind of spam builds. A caster mage is still really strong, people are just blind [:D] No Im not gonna say what build I used because I dont want to vs it all the time! x)




rej -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 14:02:09)

quote:

Quick question, are you two mages? Not at the moment.
Second question, have you been? Yes, I was a Tech Mage for well over a year, with over 12,000 total battles under my belt when I switched. I also observe and test current class balance often.
Third question, tell me why they don't deserve a buff, based on my statements. Because they are already above 4 out of five of the other classes. And because that would very likely make them overpowered, and cause hundreds of players to flock to the class. The last thing we need is another Cyber Hunter migration.
I appreciate your feedback :] No problem. And I'm with you on the Support problem. I hope support is buffed soon.

EDIT: Yeah I had a really nice Strength/Dex mage build, with no Malf, 5 Bludgeon, some DA etc. but it fell short without passive defences and things like bloodlust against Bounty hunters, I always appreciate your input in that it's backed up with facts and a base rather than an opinion with no holding in this topic.



Zeoth -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 15:32:59)

Support needs a pretty decent buff on all levels. It's a literal joke to be using it nowadays and I often ask people who have it WHY they use it still. Tech mages do not need a buff, I'm currently using a str/dex build that is AMAZING. Lvl 7 DA lvl 7 bludgeon level 8 assim and level 4 reroute. It's just scary actually. It beats caster Mage anyday. Sadly I miss the old support builds honestly.



Wraith -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 16:16:40)

I would actually un-retire if this happens.

I would love to see Support Mages again.

I would love to see Support TLMs again.

I would love to see Support CHs.

And:

"Support needs a pretty decent buff on all levels." ~Zeoth



veneeria -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 17:37:30)

quote:

I understand as a mage, caster builds are useful, but should that be our only option? Spamming Plasma bolt and waiting for Supercharge? No. I like tactical builds with options, not a succeed or don't style.

I feel sometimes that, we bounties, are sometimes almost forced to use str builds. Or now, tank builds.

Some balance changes (or nerfs) can get useless over time. Others really restrict us too much. Why not just open new possibilities ? Something i actuality liked about the tactical mercs at the start of delta, was the fact that they had more freedom to make builds than other classes.

I guess it makes sense, if there is to be more types of builds, there might actuality be new counters....



Zeoth -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 17:48:45)

YUSH FORST QUOTE! Woot xD anyways that's gonna be my sig nao O:



ScarletReaper -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 18:44:12)

Tech mages are fine. Support Definetly needs a buff. I had a support build for quite a while, but got tired of my bad win percentage. Guarentee if it is buffed, it will make a looooooot of people happy. Myself included.



fhiz -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 18:52:39)

Support is definitely not up to the standards of the other stats.

Tech mages on the other hand are doing alright.

Buffing support would hopefully add more verity, not just in tech mages but for all classes.

My 2 best character's in terms of win percentage don't have a single point added to support, and I would like that to change.



Stabilis -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/7/2012 19:38:10)

Imagine if Support had a Primary weapon that had no cooldown like Strength does.



khalidon5000 -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 2:18:01)

I suggested that a while back & I would like something like that.



BlueKatz -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 2:25:44)

I thought the staff said something about buffing Rage or adding starting Rage basing on Support a while back?



Zeoth -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 2:28:58)

They did change rage but it's for the worse of you ask me. They changed the mechanics so that in sunny the attacker benefits more. So trying to deal damage > tanking. So adrenaline is pretty useless and either it needs to be changed or rage much be looked at again.



charwelly -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 5:33:49)

I don't agree the current techmage build which is mulfaunction and there ultimate.
and with support it only needs right build and weps to work.



MrBones -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 7:05:09)

Support should at least be more effective determining who's going first.



ND Mallet -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 8:51:37)

@zeoth You do realize that is the whole point of rage right, to give attackers a better advantage over tanks? Rage was meant to pierce tank defenses. I think it's kind of failing it's point if tanks weren't being affected by it like they should've been.

To answer the thread though. No and no. Support isn't supposed to be the do-all stat. It's supposed to give small advantages here and there. Stuff like going first or dealing occasional extra damage. It's called Support, not Stand-alone. Support usually indicates helping someone or something else. Support compliments multiple types of builds quite well with the chances to crit and the shields and other skills it can provide you.



Khannibal -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 9:27:17)

Well Mallet, you're right in saying that it's not a do-all stat, but should that not apply for all stats?
Technology gives the ability to use a high unblockable, chance to crit regardless of support bunker buster, gives resistance and increases your chance of deflecting.
Not only that, it influences smokescreen, which lowers dexterity, meaning a lack of defence, increases robot damage on a +5 build, especially one orientated around technology, and gives mages and bloodmages an unblockable, high base damage energy attack.

Now to me that seems to point out that technology in itself is a stand alone stat, support increaes your critical hit rate, yes, but against an opponent with high support you're likely to be blocked. Your defences are no higher for abusing support, and the only attack influenced by support takes 3 turns to cool down.
Of course support affects Malfunction, but a quick Assault bot special and that may as well have not been used, particually against a tank with massive defensive capabilities. It affects Defence matrix, again something the Azrael borg can counter, and certain merc skills that aren't often used, I.e Field Commander.

Support gives no defensive bonus to the player or team, which counters your theory that support is used as a supportive stat, healing a player should be a supportive move, why not make that an addition to a higher support stat?

@MrBones

I agree, i've been level 34 for a while now and whenever I fight lower levelled players, and a lot of the time strength builds with low support, I go second. I used a 160+ support build the other day, and went last in a 2v2 battle 4 times in a row. So basically it's, your crits will be deflected, your support damage output is once every three turns, and the chance to go first is by no means set in stone. Tanks dominate on the basis that support doesn't grant the user a higher damage output, or any real bonus in that their massive dex and tech not only improve Resistance and Defence, but the ability to block, deflect, land their hits on target and likewise.



ND Mallet -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 13:03:33)

@khannibal
Tech: Deflects, resistance, bots, Smokescreen. Tech lacks the sudden ability to increase damage and overcome defenses(rage) which support has and cannot block melee skills or improve physical defense.
Support: Crits, Malf, shields, rage and first start. It lacks a constant way to protect but it does increase damage and has sudden damage with the ability to overcome defenses.
Dex: Blocks, some skills, physical defenses. Lacks the ability to deal full damage with guns constantly(deflect) or any other benefit of support
Strength: Constant damage, improves all melee skills and Fireball, no blocks, no deflects, no sudden damage bursts, no defenses.

The stats all fall behind in some area or another. Tech does a lot of things it seems at first but Support does more still.



MrBones -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 13:13:06)

@ND Mallet:

All this is great in theory. All the stats have a job of their own. But I feel that right now none of this matters. No matter where a player choose to put his stats point, luck have the last word. All of this is irrevelant.

A player choose strategically to invest all is points in strength, having minimum support. How in hell can he start the fight ? I see too many players with very low dex blocking 2 or 3 times a fight, agaisnt an oponent with over 100 points more in dex.

Same goes for any player spamming only one stat and facing no consequences at all. In my opinion, this is the hearth of the balance problem.
What is the point of coming up with a strategy ??




Stabilis -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 13:50:10)

quote:

Tech lacks the sudden ability to increase damage and overcome defenses(rage) which support has and cannot block melee skills or improve physical defense.


Technology improves Bunker Buster, Surgical Strike, Smokescreen, EMP Grenade, Plasma Bolt, Supercharge, Plasma Cannon, and Plasma Grenade. All of which are damage or damage catalysts. I would say that because of this, Technology "suddenly increases damage and overcomes Resistance and Defense".

Technology does not consider blocking or Defense, no, but it does however uphold deflecting and Resistance. Lastly, Dexterity makes an identically opposite stat, so think upon that.



My Name is Jake -> RE: Do you think support should be buffed? And tech mages? (5/8/2012 19:36:18)

quote:

We can't use strength/dex builds, as i've shown of late, no matter how I tweak it we lack passives that stop bountys and blood mages healing off us, a dexterity lowering skill, or a passive healing skill. i understand TM's are a defensive build, i always have done, but a good Hybrid class is what makes it shine, I do feel our skills need a revamp and a breath of fresh air, as the defensive option wastes a turn and requires we invest all our points into defensive skills, while lacking other helpful ones.
TMs can use str/dex builds. Here is mine and it works well http://twitpic.com/9ixcrv/full

I also think support does need to better.



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