CH and BM facelift (Full Version)

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zion -> CH and BM facelift (10/24/2012 12:38:35)

CH complaining about SC being weaker now (Its actually quite comparable to frenzy, so)... I have an idea to revamp CH. I think CH should mirror TLM - so TLM has reroute and frenzy? CH should have bloodlust and SC. Obviously remove malfunction from CH in this case.
Now, for the crazy-but-just-might-work... take away bloodlust and intimidate from BM and give return to it malf and assimilate. Instead of overload, blood commander. This way supercharge actually makes sense (no redundant health drain) and bludgeon and fireball aren't compatible with malf.
I think this makes a ton of sense, what do you think?



Ranloth -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/24/2012 12:43:38)

TLMs have Reroute and Frenzy? CHs have Debuff and SC. Classes can have 2 of these: Passive EP or HP regen, debuff and passive Armor.. As per 2 classes, they have 2 of those so it makes sense. And CHs are focused on Technology, I don't see how blood comes into play. Makes a ton of sense.

BL and Intimidate off BMs and shove Malf and Assimilate as well as BC instead of Overload..?
1. That's copy of TM.
2. Every class needs a stun skill.
3. They already have stat buff in form of Reflex.

SC makes sense now too.. They have powerful skills and debuff as well in form of Intimidate so they are mainly glass cannon class. Only because SC doesn't stack with BL it doesn't mean it makes no sense.. Having up to 59% regen from SC would be too strong, especially with the fact they can focus on SC and damaging stat to abuse hell outta BL thus leading to our beloved nerfs. Makes a ton of sense.



ND Mallet -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/24/2012 14:27:15)

So I can get superb defense with E. Shield and Reflex while also getting more damage from Malf and BC with the use of DA to further give me more damage and that would be more balanced than what we have now?



zion -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 3:34:09)

@ND: No bloodlust... And you have to Pick whether to go defensively or offensively - you can't use BC and a shield - you would be dead before you start....
I am trying to come up with a way for supercharge to make some sense as the ultimate skill - it is the biggest oversight in this game right now.

@Trans: Appreciative that you have some nice suggestions, but others are allowed to suggest things as well...

quote:

1. That's copy of TM.
No its not. Out of 12 skills, 5 would be different just like now.
quote:

2. Every class needs a stun skill.
The devs told you that every class needs a stun skill??? LOL
quote:

3. They already have stat buff in form of Reflex.
You can give BM back DM like they originally had.

Finally, no class should be limited to one option - "its the glass cannon class" is ridiculous, this is ED not WOW.



Darkwing -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 4:34:15)

first of all, if you take out bloodlust, BM will be the only class with a single passive skill( if we take your example).



Promaster -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 6:30:21)

It doesn't make any sense at all, actually. CH with bloodlust and SC is just way too OP. Being able to regen hp and ep? How is that balanced? Coupled with EMP, they'll own every other class. CHs in no way should mirror Tlm. Each class are supposed to be unique and special in their own ways.

Your crazy-but-might-work way is crazy and wont work. BMs, like Trans stated, are practically glass cannons. Although this is not WOW, saying that this is ED does not imply that all classes are flexible and able to use any builds. Blood mages are not made to tank. They are made to deal high DPT and that is what DA and Bloodlust is for. To deal damage and survive with it. Making fireball and bludgeon have no sync with malf will only destroy the class, seeing as how each of the blood mage's skills are not compatible with each other, unlike CHs/BHs with malf/smoke and massacre and TMs with malf and supercharge.

In conjunction with what Trans said as well, every class needs a stun. It's not because the Devs said so, but because every other class has one. If you take away overload from BMs, they will be the only class without a stun, which gives the them a disadvantage during clutch moments. The only thing that i actually want implemented for blood mages would be to return assimilate back to them, but of course this will make the class OP in the end.

If any of this was implemented, everyone will be Cyber Hunters and Blood Mages will be extinct. So not supported in any way. No need to hate Blood mages to this extent and being biased to CHs.



ND Mallet -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 8:19:27)

@gk It's not impossible for that build to work. If the enemy debuffs you then you'd start with the shield, then you'd go BC and attack with malf next along with some energy weapons afterwards. If you go first then you skip the shield.
quote:

You can give BM back DM like they originally had.

Yes, let's further OP the potential support abuse build. It's not like you can get huge damage from Malf and aux anyways. Nor does BC improve with support to give you more strength so your Assimilation can deal more damage and still ruin the enemy's build.



zion -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 8:46:38)

@promaster: I am a BM.. so clearly you are just flaming...

@ND: Have you played a Merc? BC needs to be maxed for any decent health regen. Your hypothetical OP biulds require putting points into every stat - which of course won't be feasible to about level 50 when everyone will be OP with the current system.

You could say the same thing about every class, btw - what about BH's? They steal all your energy, block and deflect all your attacks, gain health on every attack and have the most OP finishing move that perfectly synergizes with their health regen and smoke???? See what I did there?

Why am I being berated for wanting a bit more flexibility with the BM class? It was never intended to be exclusively the "glass cannon" we have today, we have full control over our stats and skills - thats what makes ED more interesting than other cookie-cutter games.



Mother1 -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 8:56:39)

@ GK365

Your original idea would OP CH. No class has both energy and health gain passives together plus they will have shadow arts along with it which means they will have 3 passives.

Also while some classes don't have certain moves like TLM can't debuff, BM can't energy drain etc, they all have the ability to stun their enemies. Just because the move isn't used by a lot of people doesn't mean people don't use it. Also BM did have assimation but they back when they did the masses thought of it useless so they changed it. Also removing bloodlust from them? Bloodlust is the thing that seperates them from TM and even in the description of them it says they have developed a lust for blood. Removing blood lust would not only make then weaker, but you aren't giving them a passive back which will put them at a disadvantage.

Blood commander would also OP str BM even more since we already have those who spam strength to the point where some have 100+ strength. Last thing we need is for them gaining more str on their own without a merc or tech merc partner.



Promaster -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 11:42:40)

I am just stating my opinions and also discussing about this thread, tyvm. I myself am a bloodmage as well, until just a few minutes ago. I am just stating how bad the class will be and also pointing out my disagreements.

If i may add, i think replacing DA with a move like assimilate might work. Prevents them from doing too much of damage each 2 turns and also not nerfing the class too badly as well. Kind of a win-win situation if you ask me.



Ranloth -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 11:48:45)

Difference is, Promaster, that giving Strength builds something that drains EP, gives you HP back from the damage as well as gives you some Energy back just asks for looping it and abusing. Taking away DA will hurt BM as a whole, Assimilate wouldn't be useful for all either.



Promaster -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 12:48:07)

I dont think removing DA would hurt much considering how BHs are able to do without fine without it. Despite the fact that the difference is because BHs have debuffs, it gives BM players lesser incentive to spam strength and rather try to add more stats into their defences as well. Battles now also last too short to spam assimilate for it to actually be useful, and the ep they receive is not too big a difference to decide the the outcome of the battle, nor the ep stolen. Assimilate + intimidate gives BM a better way of surviving by cancelling that one skill that could end the fight, as well as getting rid of the "glass-connon" title for the class can also add a more variety of builds, since in my opinion, DA often takes up too much skill points in every build. With maxed bloodlust, Blood mages often have lesser skill points left to invest in other skills and hence, reducing the variations of builds. With just maxing bloodlust and having DA to level 8 already takes up 19 skill points, leaving maxed level-cap players only around 15 skill points left for other skills.



Mother1 -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 14:06:33)

@ promaster

Remember deadly aim is a passive, and every class has two of them. Removing it would hurt them since they would only have one passive. In order to remove one passive you would have to replace it with another and none of the other current passives would fit without OP the class.

Plasma armor would give them more resistance, and strength builds would be harder to beat since they would have passive resistance.
Mineral armor same as plasma armor but with physical defense
Hybrid armor same thing since they would have passive defense and resistance.
Reroute no since it would give them both energy regain and health regain which would OP all of the builds with BM
Shadow arts people already complain about it since it give unfair advantage of blocking and Str BM would use this to cover up for weak defenses which would OP the class

Adrenaline is also out since we already have some merc's rage on turn 3 because of it. Str builds already rage at turn four without it and now that the platinum pride armor is out which steals rage if you combine these two it would OP str builds even more, and support builds as well.

Now onto your thing of less strength spamming if it was remove I doubt it. Even without Deadly aim str itself is more powerful then the rest of the stats, and BM would still have a powerful but less power sidearm attack, bludgeon which is powerful with strength, fireball even though it was nerfed and every other melee attack that works with strength. Removing deadly aim from them won't stop them from spamming strength as it will only weaken them a little while it would hurt every other build more. If anything this would promote users to switch to the strength build just like before the fireball nerf.



ND Mallet -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/25/2012 21:24:13)

quote:

@ND: Have you played a Merc? BC needs to be maxed for any decent health regen. Your hypothetical OP biulds require putting points into every stat - which of course won't be feasible to about level 50 when everyone will be OP with the current system.

With 96 support my BM's E. Shield at lvl 1 gives me 25 resistance. So Tier 1 means it costs me nothing from my 34 skill points I get at lvl 35. With 96 support I can get a -40 tech Malf at lvl 4. So 29 points left(1 in Assimilation to get to it) and then 1 point in Bludgeon to put 1 point into DM(26 defense) so 27 points left. Just for fun I'll put all 10 points into BC(since it's only good at max you claim) for 47 strength plus 14% regen(regen is equal to half the base boost of the BC level) so I have 16 points left(1 went into Plasma Rain). Then I could put 8 points into DA and then the last 8 into Assimilation.



zion -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 4:45:38)

@ND For regular players like me, 96 support means you have almost no base str or any real defenses to speak of. Also you will have 94 health and low energy. The only energy regen will be a few points from assimilate. One emp or atom and your whole plan goes up in smoke and you have a strong aux every 4 turns. Yes if someone lets you build up two shields and a str boost, you will be OP, but after 3 turns the str BH already won!
How could a class with only one passive be OP? Constructive!??

Another idea would be an entirely new ultimate skill that actually works with the class... but I thought a little restructuring would do the trick and save the devs time.



Promaster -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 6:34:36)

Regular players meaning fulling enhanced varium weapons and armors? Because these players are the majority in the game. I can maintain 96 support, 67 str and decent defenses with 50+ ep and 94 hp, so i do not see how this leads to a problem. Doesn't most builds have 94 hp too? So that will not be a problem too.

Now, why would you use a energy shield when you're up against a str BH who uses all physical weapons. So that lessens a turn for you to set up your strategy. With reflex boost, you can cause even Str BHs to do less than 20 damage each turn, and together with Blood commander, you will negate most of the damage while regenerating ep if they do manage to hit you while RB is still active. Couple that already high damage with a low level malf and *BOOM*. You'll be able to live through their massacre and you can rage to finish them off the next turn. Or you can also prevent them from using massacre by using that level 8 assimilate which ND stated. That completely negates their burst damage, meaning massacre, and that leaves them with only rage and normal attacks, and assimilate can even let you use bludgeon if you manage to connect two of them as well. How is this not OP?

Anything, build or class, can be OP. It only depends on the current meta-game. Stating that an emp or atom smasher would destroy this strategy doesn't make sense considering how atom and emp ruins practically every single build for every class.



theholyfighter -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 10:44:47)

1. Yes, all classes have some sort of skills model. A stun skill is one of them.
2. Then BM would spam support. malf, da, reflex, e shield, blood commander gets a buff= OPED



Mother1 -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 10:47:32)

@ promaster

Fully enhanced player aren't the majority of the game but quite the opposite. fully enhanced players are usually the 30+ players while the rest are either non variums with enhancements or variums without enhancements. It is very rare that either of these are fully enhanced at the lower levels.



theholyfighter -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 10:50:23)

Yea...fully enhanced var players are NOT the majority of the game. Epicduel Balance wouldn't be needed if fully enhanced players are the majority.



Promaster -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 10:53:10)

@Mother1

Yes. Perhaps it was my bad. I meant to say that the majority of the Level-capped players are fully enhanced varium players. There is not much of an offset in balance in lower levels compared to higher levels. Because the problems in balance only pertains to players that are near the level-cap, i only referred to the population of players near those levels and not including players from mid 20s and below.



theholyfighter -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 10:56:37)

^ Hmm. No....
There are still a decent amount of f2p & non-fully-enhanced var players at 30 above levels...



Promaster -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 11:02:02)

@theholyfighter

You already said decent. If you were to go 1v1 on Epic server, most of the players you face are varium players. And it is because balance is always offset because of varium players. You dont see non variums having trouble and saying how this non varium build is OP with other non variums players, do you?



theholyfighter -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 11:04:39)

Hmm your speech is quite confusing. However, if the lvl cap( which is the lvl that really needs balance, according to what you said ) are fully enhanced players, is BALANCING anyhow needed? You could almost do ANYTHING with about 120 stat modifiers.



Promaster -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/26/2012 11:16:53)

Pardon me if that's the case then, but do not misunderstand me. It is because of the large amounts of stats a high leveled player can have that causes it to be imbalanced. Low leveled players do not have much problems because as mother1 has stated, there are not much fully enhanced varium players in that level, so there is not much of a gap in power.

It is because we can do almost ANYTHING with about 120 stat modifiers all the more why we need BALANCING.



ND Mallet -> RE: CH and BM facelift (10/27/2012 10:00:42)

I did lower my support some so I could have more health. Doesn't look like low energy and health to me. Strength isn't too low either. My defenses are low but with DM and E.Shield I don't have anything to worry about really. Energy drains? Of course energy drains would kill this build. They kill every build if used right.



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