Real Balance

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zion -> Real Balance (10/26/2012 4:55:47)
"Nerfs" and "Buffs" are flashy words... Who needs them? Just make every class balanced. This is what eventually happened in AQ - Come up with real numbers that quantify how much equivalent power each skill possesses and make sure the total for each class is the same. Its probably something the Devs should have done - they didn't so we can do it... Its up to the forum members to come up with a fair grading system of stats and skills that we can grade the current classes, varium gap, stats etc. Additionally, should there be hard rules like: every class needs a stun for that 30% chance to change the tide of a losing battle or every class needs two passives? --Noiz

Ranloth -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 5:11:16)
No you're wrong. AQ is single-player game so it's easier to balance + items are balanced on weekly basis, and ED is PvP and PvP games will never be fully balanced. You cannot compare the two. If so, KoO has bigger Team yet Sweep is taking 4 years now AND is not done. Balance Team is around for 1.5 years and much smaller so you expect 10 more years? quote: Balance changes always boil down to buffs and nerfs. Any change, regardless of its intention, always sways the balance of power one way or another unless it is mathematically identical (in which case, the change must not have been for balance reasons). Any change to an item, a skill, a class, a stat, etc will always make something stronger or weaker. A new weapon can introduce a previously unviable strategy that becomes dominant, regardless of whether that item was designed to buff that strategy or not. ------- To address the OP's suggestion, constant buffs without nerfs is an unsustainable idea. A simple example: Let's say that every week we find the most underpowered class in the game, and buff its damage by 1. Every week, there will ALWAYS be a class that is more underpowered than the rest. Eventually, every class will simply one-shot the other. Whoever goes first instantly wins. Hardly fun. Obviously this isn't a perfect example, but hopefully you get the point. I understand, nerfs feel bad. It's FUN to feel strong, and nerfs make you feel less strong, so they're less fun. But for the health of the game they are absolutely necessary. http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20647982 Said by Rabble himself, who takes care of Balance. If Devs can do it then we can do it? Give feedback, that's our job. Rabble then adjusts items as per our wish, as seen recently even with many items.

Mother1 -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 5:15:23)
Ok here is how it can be started. For starters as I said many times nerf str. Str is one of the most OP things if not the most OP thing in the game. because of this Str builds are OPing F2P and other P2P players. This needs to be addressed before there can be any real balance. Next buff support a little. Ever since the support nerf it is only support builds and focus builds that even use support while the rest would leave this at the bare min for Power, dex, and/or tech. With a slight buff to support it would bring it up again and help with the balance issue. Next and one of the more important things is the varium gap and enhancements. Thanks to the credit prices for enhancements being so sky high non variums are the punching bags for fully enhanced varium players. It is also why many of these builds are OP as well. However if enhancements were made cheaper for non variums this gap would close a lot since non varium and varium items themselves are only a few points apart, and the staff is putting in items that are the same for credits. With these items and cheaper enhancements for non variums this gap would be small or non existant. These are my thoughts and ideas for balance.

Promaster -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 6:14:01)
I do not see how you can define "real balance" in a PvP game. Some class will always be better than others. It's kinda like rock-paper-scissors. You cannot compare a PvE game with a PvP game. Balance can be easily maintained or controlled with just numbers in a PvE game, however in a PvP game, there is an extra factor that is added into the equation. The creativity of the players. Yes, that's right. This is something the Devs cannot control. How do you think OP builds came about? It is because of this factor that makes it practically impossible to balance out the game. There will always be a new OP build or class every nerf or buff. You cant deny this fact. The Developers are also human after all, You cannot expect them to know everything. Why do you think this forum is even here in the first place? It is for them to listen to our suggestions, opinions and also discussions. Hence, you cannot always blame the Devs for every OP build that are made. They already did their best and implemented many features that were originally just suggestions from players like us. In fact, the nerfs and buffs to every class are mostly because of our opinions and suggestions as well. And also, it is only fair that each class has 2 passives and a stun. It would be unfair to some other classes when the other classes have 2 passives while they only have 1. Stuns, like i mentioned in your other thread, are for those rare clutch moments, so it would be beneficial to every class if they had one. Players do pay real money to class change in the first place, so of course they want the best. Do you think someone would pay real money to use a class with only 1 passive when there are other classes with 2 passives? The answer is a definite no. Why? Because passives are too strong a skill to pass out. Why do you think all passives are always maxed or almost maxed out?

zion -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 8:52:20)
What you all must realize is that this game has been steadily turning into an AE game. Almost every release emphasizes the PVE aspect of the game - doing missions and fighting NPCs. PVP does still go on in the background if you are a fully enhanced varium char or desperate for credits. With that said, every class can at least be balanced for the main gameplay - PVE. It is pathetic that many f2p chars can't even fight with npcs that are on their level, let alone bosses. Only the pros have any chance against snork for the rare drops. Call it balance, call it whatever - every class should be able to compete in the different battle modes with the right build. Obviously certain classes have different advantages in any given battle mode due to their special abilities. For example, bloodlust makes boss fighting easier while a passive shield makes Juggernaut easier. In terms of balancing PVP, it would be a little more tricky and perhaps the constant tinkering is the only viable solution, but it seems that a couple OP builds have reign for extended periods of time. At least when an OP build is exploited, the devs should weaken it a bit in the NEXT UPDATE. Same with a class that is under-performing. Of course, I don't want this to be the discussion here, but without a MUCH more sane credit-enhancement system, there will never be anything remotely resembling balance. @Pro I agree that passives are the most essential skills of a class and should be considered the starting point of the discussion - are all the passives balanced? Then maybe you can ask if the offensive/defensive skills are balanced... Could we at least come up with how many of each type of skill there should be for all classes?

Promaster -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 9:39:48)
Erm...this is an AE game. Why do you think Epicduel forums is part of the AE forums? Because the Epicduel Devs are part of the staff of the AE team. Players are bored of PvPing, hence the emphasize of PvE. No varium players are also benefiting from PvE too, even if they do not, that is why the Devs have increased the amount of exp they receive even if they lose the fight. Every class ARE able to compete with each other, only except the classes which are more dominant now are winning more. Every build is good, there are just those exceptional builds that are better. Skills are just skills used for any type of battle, not just for that specific battle mode. For example, Bloodlust can be for juggernaut too, considering how much damage the juggernaut can regen after hitting hard on the low leveled players who have low defenses. Nerfing the OP builds are not so simple. You have to think of the consequences as well. Will the nerf affect the entire class? Will the nerf cause the class to be totally useless? Will that buff make that certain class stronger than the rest? These are the typical questions every game developer has to ask themselves whenever they are planning to do it. You need time to come up with a long term solution, instead of just coming up with a short term solution. There are reasons why the ED team has hired several testers to test for the updates before the updates are actually implemented. However, only a small number of testers are not enough. There was a post that i saw once before. Something about whether having a group of testers fighting a specific number of battles during the testing phase or having the entire community fight as many battles as they can each day be more efficient in finding out the flaws of each nerf, buff, update or bug. Rushing into immediate actions to start nerfing just because an OP build was exploited recently might post serious consequences to the class as a whole, and not to just that build. Do remember that EpicDuel is still currently at the Gamma phase. Why do you think EpicDuel has not left that phase yet? It's because of the classes that are not balanced yet. You may not know it, however, the Devs are currently thinking of ways to balance out the game like us. Just because you dont know, doesn't mean they aren't doing their best. Nobody wants the game to remain like this, and talking about balancing the game while not giving specific suggestions on how they could be solved is no help at all. Apparently, you have not visited the general discussions much if you're still going on about the credit enhancement system. The Devs have already announced that they are coming up with a new enhancement system, so just be patient and see what's in store for us. If you ask me, enhancements are what caused the game to be worse instead of making it better. It just increases the gap between the varium and non varium players by too much. Yes, the passive skills are balanced, for balanced builds. However, they are OP with OP builds. See, that is how well the passive skills are adapting to the classes. They are just skills after all. It is the entire build that is the problem. Or rather, the stats that are the primary focus of the builds that is the problem. Like i previously mentioned, it is too difficult a task to balance this game now. The number of stat modifiers any varium player can have now is too outrageous that any single stat can be easily abused. The game, in my own personal view, would be to completely remove enhancements, maybe except from armor or primary weapons, such that it can reduce stat abusing, causing any stat abuse to completely render the other stats to be too low to be of use. And also, i was against the idea of having the evolved classes like tlm, BM and CH be released so quickly since the three base classes aren't exactly completely balanced themselves. Rushing into these sort of solutions has thus proven to be ineffective. Look at how players thought that evolved classes were actually good? Sure, it made the game more fun as there are now a larger variety of classes. But look at the forums now. Players are now talking about how cybers are weak, BMs are too OP and Tlm to be one of the bottom classes in the food chain. This could have been prevented if they had not rushed into releasing these classes, and planned before hand how the the major flaws could be fixed. And may i ask what do you mean by coming up with how many of each type of skill there should be for all classes? Seeing as how the game is right now, i'd say 2 passives and 1 stun is working out rather well.

Arcanis -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 10:11:10)
quote: Players are bored of PvPing This might be a problem for a game that on homepage has "EpicDuel Player-vs-Player Online Battles". I find it rather sad that after all this years there is even a need for "Balance" part of forums in such amount as for this game. quote: You may not know it, however, the Devs are currently thinking of ways to balance out the game like us. That sentence,not quite in same form but more in same meaning, also has long bearded history,almost as much as the famous one " The game is still in testing phase." The impression that I got is that Titan and Night got bored of ED and moved onward with another projects while Rabble is here to keep ED going in somewhat general direction of... well,not sure there. Some mistakes were unforgivable and unexplainable (fame), some were understandable (class changing) , but all together would be possible to pass by them if balance was taken seriously, and not tried to be accomplished by snip on skill here or tuck of stat there. That is applied to almost totally balanced games. ED is far from that.

theholyfighter -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 10:40:17)
Why must you go to such extreme conditions? How about some nerfs and buffs coming into balance?

Promaster -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 10:47:19)
@Arcanis My bad on that. Let me rephrase that. Players are bored of losing due to being out equipped, hence the emphasize of PvE to help them earn a more stable income. It may be sad, but it is still true. No doubt about it. All the more players should look forward to when the game is actually out of the testing phase. You may find it difficult to believe that Epicduel is still in the testing phase, however, it is 100% true. Titan and Nightwraith are only human. Epicduel is their job, not their life. However, with that being said, it is still their responsibility to help EpicDuel grow. They should have realised that it is their responsibility to help Epicduel through thick and thin since they were already aware of these situations when they first started on this project, which i strongly believe that they are. Impressions are only impressions. They are not the truth. It is based purely on your own opinion. Just because Rabble interacted with the community more does not mean he is doing a better job than Titan or NW. Fame might be a mistake, but it does not, in any way, affect the balance in the game. All it does is add more of a nuisance when players come begging for fame. Hence, i do not see why it is unforgivable. Players wanted more cheevos, fame is a way to do that. Players want more recognition, fame helps. I have no comments on class changing. If you want to know what is unforgivable and un-explainable, i would have to say that it is enhancements. Or rather, the cost of enhancements. Balance has been, and always will be, given the priority in every PvP game. It must be, or the game will fail. These small changes are already considered solutions to helping balance the game. And i do admit that some of these changes are effective. However, you cannot expect every solution to take effect immediately and cause the game to be balanced just like that. Balance will always be a complicated enemy every PvP game have to face. Baby steps are always the way to solve complicated solutions, because it is easier to reverse it if it causes more imbalance. You may not like it, but you should know that nobody does. Other games have already left the testing phase, or might still be in the last few stages. however, ED is and will be, for a period of time, in the gamma phase. You may find this sentence repetitive, but like what i have stated, it is still 100% true. You cannot compare other games to EpicDuel, because there is no reason to. If you say that this certain game is more balanced than Epicduel, why stay here fussing about balance when you can be enjoying other balanced games instead?

Arcanis -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 12:30:07)
I don't stay here anymore. The only reason I log on to ED is to spend 5 minutes before my work ends to try and catch some of my friends i made here and say hello. Sadly,most of them are already gone. You sound reasonable and your point on enchantments is valid. My mention on fame was just a side note of something that never should have come into game but you are right,it doesn't affect balance - just the community :P. If I sound harsh,that's only because I too once had faith in both developers and ED. Not anymore.

The Astral Fury -> RE: Real Balance (10/26/2012 16:31:13)
Ok if we nerf strength then we nerf defense and technology because if were doing less damage that means for thing's like tank build's and even any other builds, defenses will become OP and there will be tank builds will be all over the place, even now they make you do next to no damage even with a strength build and you want to make us do less damage. Also I don't want to sound mean, but there does need to be a huge advantage for varuim players if we make enchamnets cheaper then they will be on pretty much the exact same playing field. Weponds,armour,sidearms and aux aren't even that diffrent to varuim items just a point or two higher stat bonuses. What's the point of buying varuim if free players can be just as good as you I'm not trying to sound rude ,but it is true.

Promaster -> RE: Real Balance (10/27/2012 1:46:05)
@Arcanis I get where you're coming from. I felt the same way too. In fact, i still do. From beta till now, all i've felt was being letdown updates after updates, but not all though. Some was pretty good. But i'm willing to be patient and carry on waiting since i'm seeing some potential in this game. [&:] @dragonman111 There is no need to nerf dex and tech if str is nerfed, considering how fast we can rage to tear through their defenses. There are also debuffs for a reason. And the rise of tanks could also make battles last longer and also more interesting. Even though they're tanky doesn't mean they'll win the longer battles. It all goes down to what you do to counter it. This is what i'm looking forward to. Real strategy, and a bit of luck. There is no need for a huge gap in power between non variums and variums. Varium equipment are supposed to give us just an advantage in battle, and not a guaranteed win. Non varium weapons are already on par with varium weapons. Just look at the cardboard crusader that costs credits. It's already on the same level and stats as the heavy mechachillid armor that was released a few updates ago. The harbinger weapons are also on par with some varium weapons too. The only thing that gives varium equipment the edge now is enhancement. You're right about that. However, we should not let non varium players suffer just for our own greed. They have spent their own free time grinding for these weapons to give themselves an edge in battle, not to just lose to us with style. With this being said, i do not mean enhancements to have very low prices. What i mean would be like 1.5k credits for each slots, totally up to 15k credits for a maximum of 10 enhancement slots. Note that not all weapons have 10 slots. So the total cost of enhancements varies with the number of slots each weapon can have. It would be weird if the enhancement prices are higher than the weapon price, so i'd say 15k for 10 slots will be fine to players who earned it.

laguna blade -> RE: Real Balance (10/27/2012 2:29:34)
If enchancement cheaper. I want get back my var n creds that use to enchance b4. 15k is too low. Players can get it in few hours ply without stop. It is less than 10 hours.

Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: Real Balance (10/27/2012 2:38:11)
If it were 15k, I would be so ticked if I didn't get my varium back

Promaster -> RE: Real Balance (10/27/2012 2:38:57)
That's the whole point of making ehancements better. I dont think there will be a fefund policy, but shouldn't you be happier since you wont have to pay too much to get enhancement slots for your other weapons in the future? You wont be using your weapons forever, you know? Btw, 15k was only an example. I'm not stating it so that it will be implemented. Plus, sorry to burst your bubble, but the Devs ar already working out a new enhancement system. The point of getting enhancements cheap are for the non variums to keep up with the competition. How many non variums do you know have time to play non stop to get 15k credits? There are many busy working adults and teenagers who are studying and have no time to grind everything in a day or 2. Some will take 3 to 4 days, some a week. Or even 2 weeks if their schedules are tight. What you have just said is exactly what i meant at my previous post. We should not let our greed affect the gameplay of the non variums. They too, play an important role towards contributing to the game, and we want them to keep doing so as the time passes, instead of having them rage quit every single time they lose, even if they have the best non varium equipment.

laguna blade -> RE: Real Balance (10/27/2012 4:06:07)
Well I think this game better b4 enchancement was introduced [:D] I will stop ply if not get my creds n var used to enchance after new enchancement system.

Promaster -> RE: Real Balance (10/27/2012 5:08:42)
It WAS better before enhancements came. Whether you want to continue playing or not, nobody wants to know. We are only here to discuss about real balance for Epicduel, like what can be done. I merely shared my opinions on enhancements.

Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: Real Balance (10/27/2012 12:49:42)
I'm okay with them lowering enhancement prices But you have no idea how much varium I've wasted on enhancements for weapons I've had to sell to enhance a more useful weapon I wouldn't even be demanding that varium back I just want the varium back that's on my current gear, then I can decide whether to enhance it with var again, or creds and use var for weapons as it was originally intended Also, if they lower enhancements to 15k for full enhance (and I do understand it was just an example) then they would need to lower the varium one too, because that would mean varium costed less than 1 var for 10 credits

Promaster -> RE: Real Balance (10/27/2012 14:08:42)
You are not the only one who enhanced almost all your weapons. I sold half of my inventory equipments just to buy enhancement slots for my current weapons or even new weapons as well, but looking at the big picture here, if enhancements are priced lower in the future, you would no longer have to part with your old equipments any more. Nobody will be using their current equipments forever, not in a game that always evolves. But the first slot for enhancing a weapon is already 50 varium, which is already considered low. I personally think that varium prices should increase from 50, to 75, to 100, 125, 150 etc etc instead of the current 50 to 100 to 150 to 200 etc etc etc. It would be more reasonable since everyone always has the incentive to completely max out their enhancement slots. The ED Team still makes a profit while the players remain happy. Kind of a win-win situation. However, i will not keep going on about my own opinions on enhancements in thread that is discussing about "real balance" and not a thread about how enhancements caused the game to be unbalanced, seeing as to how the Devs are already working on the new enhancement system. I'd say we leave it to them and we'll see how it goes.

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