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goldslayer1 -> HP (12/15/2012 18:02:10)

So as many of you know, G00NY announced some of the features that MAY be in omega. (they can be changed before omega)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGyN7Ipd83M

now, if you guys watch the video carefully, he mentions how base Health Points are increased, but when you put stats into HP, it will only award 1 HP per stat.

so in a balance term, does this make sense to you?

wanna hear what i think?

i think it would make more sense to increase hp.
and heres why, you look at builds like str BH, str CH and they have good specials (this is not saying they are OP) like massacre at high lvls, which usually ends the battles quickly.

now, in my perspective, it would make more sense if HP was increased, while energy was decreased.

The Effects:
focus would still be limited to its own HP.
Specials builds (str bh, str ch) will be limited in energy to use mass specials, unless they decreased health to put points to energy.
thus allowing everyone else whos not of the same build, to put up with them better.

the idea?
increase hp to 1 stat = 3 hp points
decrease ep to 1 stat = 1 energy point.

what does this do you might ask?
well my 109 hp TLM build becomes 140 hp build (assuming base HP isn't increased)

what happens to my massacre builds?
well, i have the option of it being 186 HP. but then i wouldn't have energy for mass.
so what happens? the 79 energy that was used for smoke + mass combo can no longer be done.

why? i would need 34 stats to be put into energy, in order to maintain defense and str the same, i would have to lower my hp by 51+ to keep up the energy requirements

this puts my HP back on par to other builds in order to keep the energy.
on top of this to prevent focus abuse, 6 focus can be added in order to make hard core focus builds have less HP.



to explain the focus
right now with 5 focus, the max hp u can have is about 110-119

with the system i have it would be around 140-150 hp.

BUT, what if 5 focus isn't the highest focus, what if its 6?
well then the highest HP possible for a 6 focus would be 93-95
u have higher focus, but at the cost of HP.

to add along with this, luck wouldn't be affecting battles so hard as they are now (as 1 crit can usually cut half ur hp or 1/3) because u have higher HP thus giving u more chance to survive such luck obstacles.


what do you think?
please keep in mind this is just a concept.

NOTE: with this system, changing the stats on items wont be necesary



Ranloth -> RE: HP (12/15/2012 18:06:38)

That's why Goony has also said this:
quote:

In regard to changing the way HP/EP works, there may be other changes (weapon damage) and agility wasn't popular. Remember less stats now ;)


So in the end, your balance issue here is a plain assumption that has no evidence to back up with thus not being a balance issue at all. Agility is also being removed, instead with your idea, it'd have to stay in which players don't want but again, this isn't even balance issue that is in-game nor you know how stats are getting changed exactly.
Mind you, base HP/EP is also getting raised so it won't be in 40s anymore but higher. That means "average" build will have HP similar to that of now but stats will add just +1.



goldslayer1 -> RE: HP (12/15/2012 18:09:17)

quote:

So in the end, your balance issue here is a plain assumption that has no evidence to back up with thus not being a balance issue at all. Agility is also being removed, instead with your idea, it'd have to stay in which players don't want but again, this isn't even balance issue that is in-game nor you know how stats are getting changed exactly.
Mind you, base HP/EP is also getting raised so it won't be in 40s anymore but higher. That means "average" build will have HP similar to that of now but stats will add just +1.


@trans
i know its just assumption, but doing it this way wont require any reduction of stats (less work for them to do)
its not a balance issue (yet anyway), but nowhere does it say it has to be a balance issue to post a balance idea.

and agility still wouldn't be needed.

if players use high hp builds, they would be lacking in other things such as defenses, offenses, and energy.

also he mentions mercs having their base going from 47 to 57.
a 139 hp build under the current system becomes 103 HP. thats not "average"

EDIT:
added more to the original post.



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: HP (12/15/2012 23:57:06)

I feel like the 5 focus 140 hp tanks would be brutal
I made a 4 focus build, which competed well with 5 focus builds for TLM
I think 5 focus would be the new 4 focus, 140 hp and 5 focus would be better than 95 hp and 6 focus



goldslayer1 -> RE: HP (12/15/2012 23:58:28)

@blaze
140ish if they want wasted stat points and no points into energy.



theholyfighter -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 1:50:49)

1 stat per energy is fine with me, since the starting amount of energy in Omega is currently 50+
However, 1 stat per health is definitely not. Personally I think it should at least stay the same, but goldslayer's idea is fine for me as well. 1 stat for 3 health & a 6 focus is not a bad idea, so generally, supported.



goldslayer1 -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 1:58:12)

@holy
thanks for the support.
i been discussing this with friends ingame, and they too agree that more hp would help reduce the effects of luck in battle.

hopefully the staff can consider this before they make a mistake.



legion of souls -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 2:00:36)

Not a bad idea! Supported.



RageSoul -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 3:05:51)

I don't want to look at Tech Mage alt bearing puny Health so i'm soooo in to this!



goldslayer1 -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 3:13:09)

i would also like to tell others that this, is much simpler to do than the overhaul ED is trying to make, does what its set out to achieve.

and doesn't send the ED player base into panic mode freaking out about the changes.



RabbleFroth -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 4:12:18)

Here's the problem with giving *more* HP per stat point (and the reason why the current system of 2 HP per stat point is an issue).

Consider the relative gains that you get for stat points:
4-5 points give you +1 damage per round with strike.
3-4 points give you +1 def/res (or 6-8 points to guarantee -1 damage per round).
You also need a few points to increase damage on skills (amount variable depending on skill, but generally 3-5 points per damage, and they all have cooldowns so you aren't even getting +1 damage per round).

Compare this to your suggestion. For the same 5 points that gave me +1 damage per round, I can instead have +15 HP.
So if you take the damage, and I take the HP, the battle has to last AT LEAST 15 rounds for you to break even.
In other words, in a vast majority of battles, it's better for me to take the HP. Meaning the best possible build is to put every single point I can into Health and just wear down my opponent (This is exactly why Agility was implemented).

Not a very interesting range of builds.

However, if I have to choose between +1 damage and +5 Health, the optimal choice is a little less clear. In some cases I might want the Health, in other cases I might want the damage. In either case I probably want a little bit of both.

Now, if health becomes too low, there's a few ways we can counteract it while still providing an interesting choice between stats.



goldslayer1 -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 4:20:00)

@rabble
yes but right now ED players are panicking PMing me saying that this system will be bad.

this system simply makes it so that power builds (str builds and high energy builds) have less effect. not a nerf, but less effect

if str BHs cant have enough energy to maintain their mass, they will sacrifice HP for more energy.

comparing the current builds to this proposed system, a str massacre build would have to give up over 50 health in order to keep its requirements for the smoke massacre combo.

at the same time, this made everyone else have higher health, meaning it wont be so easy for str mass builds to kill people like it is now.
making it lower would make it easier for them

ED's system also makes focus tanks OP.

focus builds are least affected by this as they barely use energy. they will be "stronger" now that enemies have less HP (while they still have about 10 less hp)

the system i propose, limits focus in the HP in order to maintain that focus.
ontop of that its been long overdue for 6 focus, so putting it at this time would make it perfect as 6 focus builds would have a max of 93-95 hp under this system.

yes battle may last longer too, but longer battles = more strategical ones.

and the more Hp the less effect luck has.

a single crit right now can take 1/3 to 1/2 of ur total hp.
higher hp would reduce that effect, along with other luck effects such as deflects and blocks.

ur knocking several birds with one stone.

EDIT: (fixed some typos)

also, this one is much simpler to do as u wont have to overhaul the stat system.




quote:

(This is exactly why Agility was implemented).

yes, but agility was simply overkill, agility made people hit more to higher hp builds, focus made them hit more to every build (this nearly doubled the extra hits to high hp)

the players who used high HP to wear down enemies in beta used high support for field medic, field medic is now static and cant be improved by stats.

and diminishing returns would be removed under this system.

this way its 4 stats for a defense and 3-4 for a res.

what does this does is, if battles do last 15 rounds, taking away for example, 2 defense (8 points) and putting it to HP would increase Hp by 24, if battles do infact last 15 rounds, the higher hp is taking 2 extra damage per round. hp to defense becomes a loss after the 8th round. after that, u lost more hp than u invested for taking it out of defense.

secondly, wearing enemies down would be harder as energy will be limited.
and bloodlust classes are less prone to be wore down, because when u keep healing, they keep attacking and gaining. if u stall, its only better for them. this is why its hard to beat focus BMs without a str build.

they tank, they regain Health (and sometimes energy), and have massive damage output with DA and robot. and even then, if ur a strength build, they can still counter u with their shields. its a lose-lose situation unless ur draining his energy.



or u can just come to a compromise here if u really feel this wont work.
have 1 stat = 2 hp like it is now.
1 stat = 1 energy

and leave diminishing returns.
agility shouldn't be a problem since most builds with high hp are str builds and other builds with high energy.

but personally, i dont think 1 stat = 1 hp is a very good idea. and neither do many other pro players who have been playing ED since early beta, and some are even in the current all time boards.



theholyfighter -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 7:01:23)

So I guess the team wants 1 stat per health, and goldslayer wants 1 stat per 3 health, how about compromising it by making it 1 stat per 2 health? (Yep, like the current one)

@Rabble
Actually I believe we fellow players can somehow understand what the team is thinking about to some degree, but I believe that if how enhancements work can be announced, the issue about HP will have a difference.



Ranloth -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 7:11:48)

So goldslayer mentions crits and how deadly they are. And you are still missing out the fact that stats are getting changed directly, all of them, like the formula I gave you in one of your older threads. You keep using current system with future changes which is incorrect since your result will be incorrect and misleading. Crits exist so you DO hit high damage every now and then, and Rage is to be used against those who tank so they can stand a chance when versing them.

So what if players are panicking and PMing you? Does that even matter? It's their issue with PMs not ours. They can post their views. And neither do players on LBs are better or different to us. "Pro" player doesn't mean anything when it comes to balance. Everyone have their own opinion and no one is better.

You seem to have skimmed through Rabble's post. Having HP being worth that 8/15 HP when 4 stats may give you +1 damage already causes an issue since HP is better thus Agility stepped in. You said Agility was overkill hence why it's being removed.. <.< But having longer battles AND having Agility stay to balance high HP will cause skills to be too weak since they won't be able to do high damage on the enemy or be able to keep up. Looping Reroute + Heal will be much deadlier, BL as well with high damage build. And certain classes will not even be able to keep up unless they use special strategy but why should it be special in order to win?
Base HP/EP is rising. You've noticed Merc's HP went up but that's just them. Who said this is FINAL numbers? You still skimmed through people's posts and want to get just your point across. These numbers are NOT final. We have a week left until Omega launches and it can all change. Perhaps Mercs will get defensive boost in some form thus having lower base HP than say a Blood Mage who may get big boost to HP but very little EP to compensate for it.

Lastly you still mention that high damage, Crits, Rage, whatever, with the new system of 1 stat = 1 HP. You DO realise damage will go down due to lower amount of total stat points as well as tweaks to stats? That's why you READ people's posts. These numbers in the video are NOT final and damage WILL be adjusted. They wouldn't lower down HP and keep the damage as high just for the fun of it. If battles last only few turns with 1 stat = 2 HP scenario, why would they halve the HP and keep the damage as high? To make it even shorter? Where's freedom there if you're still forced to one build to dominate?



goldslayer1 -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 7:28:41)

quote:

So goldslayer mentions crits and how deadly they are. And you are still missing out the fact that stats are getting changed directly, all of them, like the formula I gave you in one of your older threads. You keep using current system with future changes which is incorrect since your result will be incorrect and misleading. Crits exist so you DO hit high damage every now and then, and Rage is to be used against those who tank so they can stand a chance when versing them.

so u didn't forget the part where with this system, it solves many of the problems, without needing a complete overhaul of the stat system?

perhaps if they tried it this way first, omega could have been here last week. who knows.

quote:

So what if players are panicking and PMing you? Does that even matter? It's their issue with PMs not ours. They can post their views. And neither do players on LBs are better or different to us. "Pro" player doesn't mean anything when it comes to balance. Everyone have their own opinion and no one is better.

ok i think u took that out of context. when i said pro i was talking about players who have a general understanding of balance.

many players are already saying 1 stat = 1 hp will be bad. and some have already said if its like this, they dont plan on returning to ED to see more balance issues.

quote:

Having HP being worth that 8/15 HP when 4 stats may give you +1 damage already causes an issue since HP is better thus Agility stepped in. You said Agility was overkill hence why it's being removed.. <.< But having longer battles AND having Agility stay to balance high HP will cause skills to be too weak since they won't be able to do high damage on the enemy or be able to keep up.


what does defense have to do with stats? why those HP have to correlate with defenses? it has nothing to do with it. battles dont have to be short, and they dont have to be super long. IMO this is a fluke argument of comparing HP to defenses.

go try that less defense and high HP theory vs a str build and see how it works out for u.

quote:

You've noticed Merc's HP went up but that's just them. Who said this is FINAL numbers?

never said they were, did u bother to read? they can change, and thats why im suggesting this.

when i took my calculation on HPs and stuff, i did not account for the increase, i only took into account the current base HPs and EPs

quote:

These numbers are NOT final. We have a week left until Omega launches and it can all change.

genius trans, u basically repeated what I said in the second sentence of the original post. hence once again why im suggesting this.


quote:

Lastly you still mention that high damage, Crits, Rage, whatever, with the new system of 1 stat = 1 HP. You DO realise damage will go down due to lower amount of total stat points as well as tweaks to stats? That's why you READ people's posts. These numbers in the video are NOT final and damage WILL be adjusted.

did u read the part where i said a complete stat overhaul wouldn't be needed with this one? i think i mentioned it like 5 times. ill mention it again in case u missed it. this system essentially does the same thing, keeps the current stats, doesn't confuse people, and puts a balanced change on ED that players will be more familiar with. and u had to work less to achieve the same thing.


lastly, before accusing or telling someone to do something, dont be a hypocrite about it :)



Ranloth -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 7:36:39)

Oh so way in which Crits work to be less luck-based is bad? Why would there be no stat overhaul? There's no point to reverse the changes now, especially where it's complete game overhaul. Overhaul is still needed either way, people find stats an issue not the skills and it's about time something was done with it.

quote:

what does defense have to do with stats? why those HP have to correlate with defenses? it has nothing to do with it. battles dont have to be short, and they dont have to be super long. IMO this is a fluke argument of comparing HP to defenses.

Because HP can be intercharged with defences? You can either take -1 less damage per turn or raise your HP by 4. Both will benefit different builds or you can have mix of both. Then damage comes in. It does seem like you skimmed through Rabble's post.

quote:

never said they were, did u bother to read? they can change, and thats why im suggesting this.

when i took my calculation on HPs and stuff, i did not account for the increase, i only took into account the current base HPs and EPs

Why ditch whole overhaul which can make the game less luck-based and be a nice buff overall only because you want HP to work differently? You have no insight into the new formulae yet you say change is already bad. They can change it? "Yes screw all the work to make it less luck-based! We'll raise HP by smashing our faces on the keyboards because people want HP not less luck! \o/"
Exactly. You didn't account for an increase thus you didn't account they aren't final, yet you said you did. You should've accounted for it as well as changes to OTHER stats for lower damage. Did you also account lower amount of total stats? That means people will deal less damage than they do now. And changes to some skills perhaps? Accounted for that? Doesn't seem like it.

quote:

lastly, before accusing or telling someone to do something, dont be a hypocrite about it :)

We aren't kids. If you wanna accuse people of something or call them hypocrites, this isn't the place. We're in mature discussion so don't try to change it since it makes it look bad.



theholyfighter -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 7:40:24)

Dang a bunch of off-topic issues.

Is keeping hp the way it is that difficult?



goldslayer1 -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 7:47:19)

quote:

Oh so way in which Crits work to be less luck-based is bad? Why would there be no stat overhaul? There's no point to reverse the changes now, especially where it's complete game overhaul. Overhaul is still needed either way, people find stats an issue not the skills and it's about time something was done with it.

idk, what would be a con for not overhaulling hmmm.... let me think.... hmmm
ohh wait i know, more balance issues >.>


quote:

Because HP can be intercharged with defences? You can either take -1 less damage per turn or raise your HP by 4. Both will benefit different builds or you can have mix of both. Then damage comes in. It does seem like you skimmed through Rabble's post.


by this ur making the assumption that its only balanced if the battles end quickly.
any particular reason why it needs to be this way?

what if i choose 20 less HP, and 5 more defense, thus allowing me to tank more and battles last longer anyway,
that 20 hp was less valuable to me after the 4th round. at the 5th thats 25 hp saved thru tanking. if i chose HP, it wouldn't have happened like so.

quote:

Why ditch whole overhaul which can make the game less luck-based and be a nice buff overall only because you want HP to work differently? You have no insight into the new formulae yet you say change is already bad. They can change it? "Yes screw all the work to make it less luck-based! We'll raise HP by smashing our faces on the keyboards because people want HP not less luck! \o/"
Exactly. You didn't account for an increase thus you didn't account they aren't final, yet you said you did. You should've accounted for it as well as changes to OTHER stats for lower damage. Did you also account lower amount of total stats? That means people will deal less damage than they do now. And changes to some skills perhaps? Accounted for that? Doesn't seem like it.

so u know perfectly and can guarantee that its gonna be less luck based?

and again? this is a concept, and the basic idea is to increase health decrease energy. stat overhaul wouldn't be needed to compensate damage being too high at low HPs, because HP would be high.

EDIT:
edited last part out to not offend someone else.



Warmaker04 -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 8:38:04)

Oh goldslayer i meant to post my opinion here, but by mistake i send you my ideas on your PM.



Firewallblast -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 12:56:32)

To me the new system doesn't seem balanced, while after reading Rabble's post it does seem for the better. However, hp is a valuable asset to any ones build and as your level progresses you need more and more hp. Why not have hp scale by level? The hp at level 35 would be 70/75 while it does seem drastic remember that this is at level 35 and that hp increases by only 1. Of course, the number could be lowered but it should stay near 70 anything higher would be too much for base hp and less would be too small for a level 30+.



RabbleFroth -> RE: HP (12/16/2012 14:44:39)

quote:

Why not have hp scale by level?

This is one way we can offset things if HP is simply too low in the new system.

The goal here is not to cater the entire system to the current dominant strategies. Those will change with time. The goal is to make sure that each stat is worth about the same as all of the others so that you have interesting choices to make with each stat point.
There is more work to be done in that regard (Support still stands out), but this should help Health be closer in worth to the other stats.



Scyze -> RE: HP (12/17/2012 5:59:52)

@Rabble (Charfade's "hobo")

Will there be any changes so that the matches are the same length?



Vegafire -> RE: HP (12/17/2012 6:08:07)

I dont use energy anyway but HP is a must for bloodmages, without moderate stats and High HP bloodmages become squishy >.< although all classes experience this i think it will affect Tech and Blood mages more due to them being naturally squishy



ngshuyi94 -> RE: HP (12/17/2012 22:26:24)

I think that we can also take away the effect of stats diminishing return so that the usefulness of stats as compared to health will not stop at a certain level.



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