Effectiveness of Passives (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel Balance



Message

Exploding Penguin -> Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 0:37:50)

Right now I'm doing a little project to try and statistically find out which classes are stronger and which ones are weaker. While skill trees will change in Omega, I figured most passives would stay the same. Basically, I'm just looking for other player input on which passives are best and worst in terms of ranking. I've conveniently categorized all passives into different categories, so you only have to compare defensive passives to other defensive passives, etc...

Here's my look on which passives are strongest (#1 is the best, later numbers are not descending in effectiveness):

DEFENSIVE PASSIVES:
1. Blood Lust
2. Hybrid Armor
3. Mineral/Plasma Armor
4. Shadow Arts

OFFENSIVE PASSIVES:
1. Deadly Aim
2. Reroute
3. Adrenaline

My reasoning:
-Blood lust is first because overall it equally pars to the damage overall reduced by passive armors, BUT it also stops your opponent from gaining more rage (which happens with passive armors, because they tank you) as well as enable the user to gain more rage themselves from receiving more damage
-Hybrid armor is better than Mineral/Plasma because it spreads out the damage over both defense types, as well as just give +11 total instead of +10. While the dex requirement is a burden because merc has no skills which increase with dex, hybrid armor does not suffer a major disadvantage which plasma/mineral does. The main disadvantage is that a max mineral/plasma armor can be totally ignored by a rage, causing a surprising amount of massive damage which can easily hurt CH and TLM.
-Deadly aim is better than reroute because on the first turn if you don't go first, reroute can make the user suffer devastating consequences. This includes being a TM who takes 30 damage from a TLM focus build's bot on the first turn, which can remove almost 10 potential energy which the TM could have received from reroute. Deadly aim is also better because unlike blocks, deflects can only have damage. Being in knowledge that a gun recovers every 2 turns can put pressure on opponents, knowing that a rage gun with deadly aim can kill them at 40-ish HP, especially if the gun penetrates through mineral/plasma armor.

I'd really appreciate anyone's ideas on which passives are better or not, it'd definitely help in my research. If you're going to say anything, please back it up with reasoning! I won't be able to take anything seriously without some logical reasoning behind it.



RageSoul -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 0:42:58)

Reroute is neither 100% Offensive nor 100% Defensive . It can be both , so for me , it's supportive .

But for my ranking , it will be :

PvP --> Shadow Arts < Deadly Aim > Reroute = Blood Lust > Adrenaline < Hybrid Armor < Mineral Armor = Plasma Armor
NPC --> SA + BL = BL + DA > Reroute + DA > HA + Adrenaline < PA + SA > MA + Reroute

Just depends on which situation .



goldslayer1 -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 1:29:08)

mineral armor = plasma armor = hybrid armor > bloodlust (slightly) > reroute > Deadly aim > the rest


and yes i agree, goingg second while having reroute results in a loss of energy. same for going first with bloodlust.
thats why i suggested over bars.

basically, when ur HP/EP bar is full and u attack/get attacked, u get an overbar (energy or HP) to compensate for going first/second
(this is a CONCEPT)

the idea basically is, if ur max EP is 54 with reroute and u go second, u get attacked 40 damage, u recieve 12 energy.

ur max is 54, so instead u get an overbar and ur total is now 66.
the bar stacks would be similar to the DBZ games where u have several bars in different colors.
i suggested this before and it didn't suit quite well at the time due to balance issues.
but with omega coming, i dont think this would be an issue since HP will also be much lower.

of course though there would be a limit of how much u can fill it up to. like 200%, which in this cases, would be 108 energy if ur base is 54.


quote:

SA + BL = BL + DA

idk about that. look at how well BM does with DA and compare it to BH.
if BM had a debuff it would be crazy OP with the amount of damage output it could get.

DA is also a key skill in all focus BMs. it gives them a reliable primary source of damage, aswell as HP regen.



RageSoul -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 1:44:53)

@Gold
That's in terms of Boss NPC fighting and NPC grinding .



goldslayer1 -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 1:47:29)

@lord
im talking in terms of battles. NPCs will be worthless (besides credits) in omega.



RageSoul -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 1:54:00)

@Gold
Sorry i didn't made it clear , but i was referring to the current system / phase .



goldslayer1 -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 2:00:44)

@lord
ohh ok.



anyway, heres a continuation with examples of what i meant on my previous post.
http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=20952503

it explains my basic idea to make bloodlust/reroute effective on first turns like passive shields are.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 20:03:26)

@lord aegis: It would be a great help if you could explain your reasoning and list them in ranks the way I did in the first post, your inequalities are a little confusing...
I guess reroute could be support, but I just classified it as offensive because it does not directly give you instantaneous defensive capabilities; you have to spend a turn to initiate them.

@gold: I think hybrid armor is better, due to my reasoning stated above. While mineral allows uber tech focus with TLM, a smoke can easily do you in, especially without assault bot. Same with CH, so the fact that mineral/plasma armor allowing you to specialize in tech/dex isn't as beneficial as one might think. Wait, why is BL worse than passive armors? I've analyzed every possible aspect of these 2 passives and I find blood lust to be easily superior. First of all, blood lust can still be extremely effective, even at level 6. Second of all, blood lust can give approx 5 HP per turn when attacking an opponent with a 25-ish damage attack. This is almost equal to hybrid armor. They can also get more HP from BL with rage and harder hitting attacks. THIS is where Blood Lust shows its superiority:
Passive armors = more tanking = more rage for the opponent
Blood Lust = Near equivalent of endurance that passive armors grants = not as tanky = less rage for opponents

Also note that you gain more rage the more damage you take, and blood lust makes you take more damage but heal a good amount per attack, so in terms of faster rage and rage beneficials, BL is far superior to passive armors. Also note that Passive armors are totally be ignored by rage, making tanking far less effective than some might think.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 20:16:51)

@exploding
the thing about these shields, u either have little, or too much.

tech builds wont work right because of full resistance armors. which would give u too much res and leave u open on defense.

and vice verse with physical armor to just tech resistance.

and bloodlust only works if ur attacking, if u get blocked or deflected, ur pretty much screwed.

while its the key to focus BMs right because they can tank, it is not "far" superior to passive shields.

although if u notice my rankings, i said passive shields were SLIGHTLY greater than bloodlust.
this is because it simply allows for way more tanking. with a passive shield ur guaranteed to be saved 10 hp.
with bloodlust, u go as far as enemy blocks/deflections let u.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 21:30:34)

Well, BL on BH isn't nearly a worry as you might think, particularly with a dex-debuff to reduce block chance. Pretty much only shadow arts can save you and help you block at that point.
Same with BM, reflex boost decreases your opponent's block chance as well as increases your own. Getting deflected in itself is a punishment for having insufficient tech, either that or someone's just unlucky and that's a resulting factor. The thing is, Block chance base is lower, but scales faster. Deflection rate base chance is higher, but scales slower. It's all up to opinion at that point to decide true effectiveness in terms of deflection, but tank build are meant to deflect/block, so there's really nothing much more to be said after that. BM has deadly aim and BH a debuff, so BL works well in conjunction with both skills.



Made 4 Sunny Days -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 21:53:54)

@gold
I am interested in your over bar concept

I like the idea of the energy from reroute being added over your full energy bar which would be good to compensate for going second.

I don't know if I like/or completely understand the idea of BL stacking over your full health bar, for example if you go first (or your opponent) then not only would you get the advantage of going first (Which has always been one ofthe greatest advantages in pvp) but you would also be adding more health to your own health pool, furthering the advantage of going first. You said this a concept and I was wondering if you had an idea on how the stacking of BL health gain could be balanced to keep from building up the first turn advantage (Here's to hoping that gets fixed in omega)



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 23:28:30)

@above: Reroute is definitely seen by common opinion as equal to BL, but it's definitely not. With BL, you're pretty much in full control of how you want your strategy to work when working with the passive, and it's a benefit to go both first AND last with BL because of the lifesteal effect. Unlike reroute, though, you can suffer dire consequences if you don't go first, and you're not in total control of your strategy. Fighting against good opponents with reroute can really be a drag when strategizing. For example, I'm jugging and don't want to receive a max plasma which would kill me, so rather than using strike, I use my assault bot's primary attack to still gain decent rage without giving the opponent enough energy. This kind of play makes reroute users at a humongous disadvantage when fighting BL users...
So yea, if reroute were to become an overbar on energy, it would definitely balance itself out with BL without making it overpowered. I'm really hoping something like that gets implemented.



RageSoul -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/19/2012 23:57:48)

@Exploding
In terms of current NPC farming , SA provides Blocks , BL supports you even more , but sometimes Deadly Aim and BL combined together works greater due to it relying on lesser luck . Sometimes equal . PvP however , can be quite equal but it really depends on the sitch you have though ( still kinda messy ) .



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/20/2012 0:47:27)

@Aegis: I see where you're coming from in terms of the passives combining with the other classes, but for now I'm just looking into passives by themselves. It would be a great help if you could format your input about this the way that I did on the first post. I don't think NPC farming is something to be concerned about, because most NPCs are easy to kill, excluding bosses.



RageSoul -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/20/2012 1:14:06)

Well okay .

Blood Lust : only becomes great when you deal major damage . Plus , if you're opponent doesn't attack in 1 - 2 turns , instant slight refresh for you ( and by refresh , i mean no hassles other than luck ) . Massacre has nothing to do with it when its damage helps restore lots of HP because that's how BL works .
Shadow Arts : both not-so-worth-it and annoying , simply because it gives you bonus Block chance ( along with Smoke if you're BH ) , and Blocks = no damage from unblockables . But not-so-worth-it because we can use unblockables .
Hybrid Armor : i wouldn't call it a great passive because back then , it only covers one part of your defenses , similar to Mineral and Plasma , but it can be switch at a cost of 1 turn . Nowadays , it became not so great and unequal to the other passives because you can't compensate the high damage everyone does with it split at +6 DEF and +5 RES when maxed out . Was useful but not strong . Now it became least useful and you need a Hybrid armor to make it beyond +9 on both defenses.

Well , i'll edit this later as i have to do something .

EDIT : added text but not total edit .



TurkishIncubus -> RE: Effectiveness of Passives (12/20/2012 4:21:02)

reroute is both offenive and defensive.

Hybrid >Mineral>Plasma>Reroute>Bloodlust>Deadly>Adrenaline>Joke Arts(this passive is a joke from Titan [:D])

I put Hybrid #1 because it gives +12 total def/res but the others give +10, i put mineral to #2 because it has dex requirement not tech, i put Plasma on #3 because its tech requirement is so annoying, i put Reroute on #4 because it allows healloop which is better than the hp return of bloodlust and you can use it multiple ways, i put Bloodlust on #5 because its very bad against tank builds + its blockable, i put deadly on #6 because +8-10 dmg every 3rd turn is not good as +10-12 armor that protects you always, i put Adrenaline on #7 i think its really good passive but its a waste on Merc if BH had the adrenaline instead of shadow arts that would be #4 or maybe #1, no need to explain joke arts.

If you give decreasing points to each passive:
Hybrid(8) >Mineral(7)>Plasma(6)>Reroute(5)>Bloodlust(4)>Deadly(3)>Adrenaline(2)>Joke Arts(1)

1)TLM:12
2)Merc:10
3)TM:8
4)BM:7
4)CH:7
5)BH:5

So TLM depend more on passives and BH depend less on passives.




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition
0.109375