Cheap Wins (Full Version)

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J.U.S.T.I.C.E. -> Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 7:23:49)

I have noticed the Infernal bot is a little OP, people when there on 50+hp die from it on like the 5th round, should the dev's weaken it a little?

Discuss



Jekyll -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 7:30:21)

I have to agree here. A rage special at 5 focus near the end of a 2v2 match-up can end the game almost instantly. Its a terrible way to end a perfect game, and this bot tends to be used by TLMs with 28-30+5+10 Defense and 30-34+5 Resistance. It's almost impossible to break through their defenses, and they can keep looping the special, which is rather disappointing.



Remorse -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 7:36:51)

I think the devs really need to think of releasing bots that arnt gonna have an obvious negative effect on balance, this should also apply to weapon specials.


Things like this bot, the bug bot, massive strike, frostbite.


Most of these things make luck worse or are simply tipping the edge of making things too powerful AND ITS COMPLETELY OBVIOUS!!




Its honestly not hard to come up with robot and weapon specials that wont wreck balance or in fact could improve balance.

Im sure if the devs got short of ideas, I have seen many player made robot ideas and specials that would actually be good for balance, some made by myself and if need be I can come up with heaps of ideas for robots and weapons specials that would be far better for balance then what the devs have come up with!

Who comes up with these ideas anyway??

I know the testers test them, and perhaps the should be more critical pointing out the flaws! but perhaps pick ideas made by people frequently experienced with current balance issues!

Its better to consider balance first before trying to create a fancy weapon special that just make things worse!


Sorry to criticize so much but I feel that someone needs to otherwise it will just continue to happen and balance continue to worsen.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 7:38:19)

@jekyll they are easy, i have beaten them myself, it won't be a problem if you have the android yourself.

@remorse not much people uses pyrofly these days simply because that it doesn't guarantee you to disable the desired skill, frostbite is balanced since it just drains 15 energy and you don't choose when it activates, atleast its better than assimilate, massive strike will surely be scaled down a bit due to the HP improving by 1 per stat point to keep it balanced.



Remorse -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 7:41:09)

^ That should never be the case,

You shoudlnt ever be limited to wins simply because you dont have the overpowered and balance tipping items!


If you have to have something thats overpowered to beat something thats overpowered then something is obviously wrong!.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 7:46:19)

@remorse i have beaten them with pyrofly also, and the azreal's borg but too bad i sold it, gammabot can beat it too, even bioborg can beat it if you know how to use it.



Remorse -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 7:56:55)

^ Doesnt matter if you can beat it,

Technically you can beat anything with everything with thanks to RNG.

What matters is if things are fair and balanced.


Things shouldn't be neglected as being balance ruining simply because you can or cant beat it, how stupid does that sound.

Things should be looked at as balance ruining by common seance.

And my common sense tell me that bots like that and the pyro fly are completely stupid ideas.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 8:13:36)

@above you are right about some balance issues but not all, pyrofly is not a balance issue nor it is stupid, if it is OP or ruins balance, everyone would be using it like they do with OP builds, it is balanced because it works with RNG just like all other specials on promos except platinum's pride armor, however if you think the infernal android ruins balance, gammabot sure ruins it too, because gammabot can deal twice the damage than infernal android in 6 or 7 rounds while infernal android can only use its so called OP special once per 4 rounds, it is still my opinion though, it was made available for all so i don't think it has any problems, you should have seen when it was first introduced, you would die when someone rage with it, plus RNG is what makes it balanced too, a simple deflect can make the infernal android's special not so much effective, you get losses and wins so far everything is pretty balanced except for enhancements which ruins balance.



MirageD -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 8:22:04)

i agree that the android bot needs a bit of a nerf



Jekyll -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 8:30:17)

@Trizz i hope that you understand that in ED there should never be the case that you need an OP item to win another OP item, which is simply unthinkable. Just as many other people have said here, the bot does need a nerf.



Remorse -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 8:33:29)

Personally I dislike pyro fly not because it makes me lose,

Infact it hasn't really helped kill me in most cases.

What I dislike about it is the fact that it has potential to get an effortless win if it takes the right skill.

And I hate anything that wins effortlessly even if the chances are low.

You need to stop thinking of things being oped or not by "what people use " or if you can beat that builds or not.

To be oped is just to ruin balance and IMO balance is ruined by anything that promotes effortless wins.



Hun Kingq -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 8:37:09)

Just take out focus and that will solve you bot problem without nerfing anything, the Infernal Android is weak without focus even in long matches. They take away focus then you will see less 5 focus builds and probably less Blood Mages.

In Omega we will probably see something done with the bots as well forcing players to use the skills. Watch and see.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 8:37:35)

quote:

@Trizz i hope that you understand that in ED there should never be the case that you need an OP item to win another OP item, which is simply unthinkable. Just as many other people have said here, the bot does need a nerf.

nope, didn't you read my post correctly? i said that everything in this game can be countered with another thing, some think that if your build cannot beat it then it must be OP, everything has a weakness. infernal android and other promo specials are not OP, but if you really think it is then the right way to do it is to decrease it's max damage output by a few %.
mother1 and some said in another thread, that if you give something too many nerfs it would lead to another thing being OP, just like bounty hunters, other classes have been nerfed while bounty hunters are left untouched, thats why most think that its OP.

@remorse that still depends on RNG, it only really ruins balance if you get to choose which skill to be disabled, and as some said before that you shouldn't be too reliant on a particular skill, cybers rely on static charge before its nerf and pyrofly can be devastating if static got disabled, same as somoke/massacre BH, they are too reliant on massacre or smoke, that if one got disabled they are basically losing the battle.

well no one here is right or wrong, it really just depends on what each of us thinks. so feel free to disagree with what i think, i do not mind.



J.U.S.T.I.C.E. -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 8:50:08)

I'm using BH and if some1 blocks you... Your dead.



Jekyll -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 8:50:17)

Unfortunately, I was referring to your original post on how the Infernal Android will not be a problem as long as I have one myself. True, it may be, but therein lies the irony of this whole issue: Do we really have to use an OP item to counter an OP item? You said you can easily defeat such players, but I dont wish to delve into an argument of a greater scale. Either way, since you are not wiling to concede your flawed argument, you can save yourself the trouble of writing a reply.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 8:57:57)

@above its not a argument but a exchange of opinions, i admit im using a OP class but i also admit that i do not win 100% everytime since im open to trying new builds which some abandoned long ago, like the plasma cannon/5 focus build and the support blood mage build, they are fun and i get decent wins from them too, even against infernal android users.
i agree that we shouldn't use a OP item just to counter another OP item, but to be honest i don't think there is any OP items around, only enhancements are the main problem, without enhancements tech abuse 5 focus builds won't be possible. lets just see how everything goes in omega. because i have been told by the devs that it is gonna be a completely new game :D



J.U.S.T.I.C.E. -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 9:01:21)

@above You just destroyed and dug a deep hole for yourself.. Previously you said only OP vs OP and now your going against it?



Remorse -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 9:04:51)

Completely new game, or rather back to beta/early gamma before they introduced the game ruining feature to begin with.


I do sort of agree with you though trizz, The loss of stats should improve many balance issues.

But I still think some robot and weapon specials are completely not thought out.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 9:08:36)

@justice lol, we all have the right to change our opinions, isn't that right?
plus OP vs OP = balance, OP vs creative = a slight unbalance but it still can be balanced if you don't make a hopeless build and know what you are doing. every bot is OP in their own perspective, its just how you use it that matters.
as i said before, each OP build has its weakness, so infernal android/pyro fly is not really OP compared to other bots if you come to think of it.

@remorse we do not need to worry, the devs said themselves that they are going to keep a close eye on balance during the first few weeks of omega, so if massive strike, infernal android or pyro fly becomes OP or ruins balance, they will nerf it to a appropriate level, the devs went as far as making it balanced between each player so i don't think they would destroy it if they let things go unbalanced again. they would not disappoint us.



Remorse -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 9:15:43)

^ I really hope so,

But being a long time ED player I know to unfortunately not get my hopes up.

It does however seem they are taking a change for the better, which is great.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 9:23:34)

i know i have said this many times but, i have been here since the start of ED, i never took a break off it.

im enjoying all of its features, just not the enhancement part, thats when every bad things started happening, im sure you already agree many times with this, so definitely omega is a change for the better :D



Remorse -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 9:25:23)

^ Indeed :)



King Helios -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 11:16:12)

5th turn? I'm doing 55+ on the second turn in Jugger. (B/C smokescreen [-41 dex])

But I agree, this is some what OP in long battles; the special is.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 11:16:57)

I honestly don't think infernal bot needs a nerf. Compared to gamma bot, you typically have to wait till turn 6 before infernal bot deals the same amount of damage with its special as gamma. If there's problems in 2v2, then that's a strategy flaw because someone failed to notice that you should target the person with infernal bot. Killing focus builds which don't have passive armors isn't too hard in 2v2, especially with a debuff/deadly aim/caster build, and if you do get stuck fighting a booster-using HLTLM then it's just based off of luck in 2v2 matchups and strategy. If you don't know rage can penetrate passive armors, you will often die against tank focus builds. OR you can just counter them by using energy removals like atom smasher, EMP, and a lucky frostbite once in a while. Infernal's special already has a 4-turn cooldown, and it gains an extra 2-3 damage per turn on 5 focus. The 4-turn cooldown makes it harder to use, particularly since you have to space your attacks out so that you can use it knowing that the 4-turn cooldown won't totally mess you up a few turns later when you really need to rage with something.



Steel Slayer -> RE: Cheap Wins (12/29/2012 13:27:51)

The bot is fine now, any1 remember how it was BEFORE it got nerfed? Yeah, THAT was OP. Keep in mind, as strong as it is later in fights, its weak early on(it starts at 80% of its regular damage, goes up by 5% per round). I'd take gamma bot over android any day just because of that. Also has a 4 turn cooldown. Also, the android is still available, and is buyable with credits(The Lawman in the Infernal Mines can sell you one for 14,000 credits.), if you think its so OP, go buy one.



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