(Arguably) The Heart and Brain of All Balance Problems (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> (Arguably) The Heart and Brain of All Balance Problems (2/14/2013 21:50:11)

This is an argument worth an essay pages long but I will try to minimize this as much as possible.

Problem: Extreme balance conflicts, of players exploiting 1 stat with a limited number of skills. Skills get nerfed, skills get stat requirements, skills get higher energy costs, skills get higher cooldowns, skills get (higher) warmups, and synergy between once good skills become alien. Skills become too feeble if not exploiting that 1 stat. Why can I not use an effective Fireball if I have Technology instead of Strength? If I allot 10 skill points into Fireball, why does someone of the Strength origin get to use it better than me at level 1? The problem is a self-recurring problem in balance, the stat-skill principle brings skills down constantly while stats (and players as a whole) remain unchanged. No matter how many times you nerf all 72 skills in EpicDuel, there will always be at least 1 prominent underpowered or overpowered balance issue.

Cause: Skills are being improved by stats. Stats are rarely nerfed, yet if they are, they are not changed forever and will revert back to an overpowered state or they become futile. The fact that my 1 layout called stats deeply relates with my second layout called skills is an extremely rooted problem that cannot be fully solved unless you can separate the 2 which allows you to individually assess a single unit. For as long as a skill improves by a stat, you can nerf the skill, but you cannot nerf it more past a certain point because that is when the role of the stat takes over. If you nerf the skill on both ends (skill nerf and stat-skill nerf), you kill the skill and it becomes void. Even Field Medic; you have probably thought and probably are still contemplating about it being improved by Support again, because it would theoretically "make Field Medic useful" or "allow Support to be competitive". I myself have even supported a Support-improving Field Medic, but did you or I think fully about the potential balance issues? Maybe, maybe not, because what if an empowered heal allows a player to theoretically live forever? What if the heal negates the best attacks of another player? But is all of this true? If it is then will the momentarily out-of-spotlight Field Medic be nerfed after we had just "buffed" it? Maybe it will! So what can you do in this tricky tango?

Solution (1 of many): Stats should have no influence towards skills. No stat improvements, no stat requirements, no stat anythings! Strip skills down to the bones and build them back up as according to their skill level and the player level: because for the fun of it we only have 34 dispensable skill points! That is up to only 3 skills at maximum "strength", passive skills included. The other question is why should a skill only be useful at level 10 or with a giant stat? It should not! Depending on the type of effect it was supposed to procure, it should be noticeable at least. But what is noticeable? Balanced. Thanks for your time, much appreciated. This was a part-rant-part-suggestion-part-epiphany kind of post. When I think problem solving I never think instant relief, I think justice with long-term cures, so I understand I am asking for a massive change... but I mean well and I trust in what I have discovered from my analysis of EpicDuel battles over the years.




Remorse -> RE: (Arguably) The Heart and Brain of All Balance Problems (2/14/2013 21:58:07)

Sorry depressed, I dont support this idea.

Yes, having skills improve with stats make them a lot harder to balance however.

It is also the main reason this game is creative exiting and has variety.


I think that they should just stick with nerfing and buffing oped and uped things as they change.


You will find that many other games are similar in this respect, and just because it needs frequent balance changes does not mean anything is broken.




Stabilis -> RE: (Arguably) The Heart and Brain of All Balance Problems (2/14/2013 21:59:45)

quote:

It is also the min reason this game is creative exiting and has variety.

-

You will find that many other games are similar in this respect, and just because it need frequent balance changes does not mean anything is broken.


Can I at least get the supporting details for why these are the delimiting counter-arguments?




Remorse -> RE: (Arguably) The Heart and Brain of All Balance Problems (2/15/2013 0:16:26)

On a personal level,

I have always enjoyed exploiting skill with high stats for interesting combinations.


I never would of stayed in this game if it were not for the exciting combos you could get with skill and stats combined.


No one can ever prove your argument wrong if you exclude personal level opinions. since this whole idea is based on an opinion.




midnight assassin -> RE: (Arguably) The Heart and Brain of All Balance Problems (2/16/2013 3:10:51)

To be honest about balance, I say that 80% would be players fault and 20% for the devs. Wonder why? Its because we are the once that create power builds. Well if we defeat a certain player with our build, chances are they will copy it then it will simply start a chain reaction. Balance team is not enough to solve balance because whatever they might do, a new powerful build will rise and can simply destroy other builds. About the devs, I want them to be very active here in the balance thread. This is my humble opinion and no offence to you Depress.




Stabilis -> RE: (Arguably) The Heart and Brain of All Balance Problems (2/16/2013 8:33:19)

quote:

I want them to be very active here in the balance thread. This is my humble opinion and no offence to you Depress.


Nope, this does not bug me at all. [;)]




doomkiller98 -> RE: (Arguably) The Heart and Brain of All Balance Problems (2/16/2013 11:24:50)

Midnight NAILED it i have been trying to tell people for years...
Its not the devs falt balance is Crap right now or whenever it is crap...
Its the players that make the builds...
Now i have never said this before but
I think that adding a few more skills That are Strategical
might help balance out balance
I dont think stripping down the skills is such a great idea
Just because it Does take away Epicduels Uniqueness as Remorse said.




Stabilis -> RE: (Arguably) The Heart and Brain of All Balance Problems (2/16/2013 12:24:39)

^

As said by Remorse:

quote:

It is also the main reason this game is creative exiting and has variety.


Which is also the reason why we cannot have a working Atom Smasher and Bunker Buster in the same build without compromising 1 of the 2, making the compromised skill effectively useless.

Eg... I need decent damage on the Bunker Buster to actually do any damage so I take away either my Strength, Dexterity, skill points, or any other combination of those 3 from Atom Smasher, and what do you know:

I either receive a magnificent Bunker Buster and a failed Atom Smasher, or I get a mediocre Bunker Buster that does as much damage as my Strike and a mediocre Atom Smasher that drains between 20 and 30 with 50/50 accuracy.

EDIT: Active skills that do not follow the stat-skill principle:

Field Medic, Venom Strike, Assimilation, Blood Shield, Toxic Grenade

All are good skills that have never been directly exploited (direct exploitation is exploiting a skill manually, so Static Charge to loop Field Medic is excluded here. Also, this does not include the old Field Medic because it improved by Support).




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