Patches to fix balance (Full Version)

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Ranloth -> Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 7:13:58)

With recent fixes making builds go both ways - either nerfed by quite a bit or buffed by a lot - there has to be some kind of balance to make the game playable without the need of stat abuse. Or not on such scale at least. I've thought of quick fixes by reading people's posts but also some common sense.

Stats:
  • Instead of lowering Res to that of Def to make them equal, Def should've been raised to make it equal with Res. That'd be defensive buff to deal with high damage due to HP being changed (1 HP/stat).
  • Revise Rage/Crits as soon as possible; the way they work and % ignored when they happen.
  • Take off ~10 EP that was given to all classes and leave the scaled one. This will lower the abuse;
    - Train EP so a bit less damage or defence, either will benefit you.
  • Diminishing returns on Support, possibly past 80-90, to deal with Support abusers;
    - Normal builds won't really go past 100 in a stat unless abuse.
    - It fixes it for many levels to come rather than a temporary patch which can be worked around if thought carefully.

    Mages:
  • Plasma Bolt's cost up to 33 EP and same scaling as Fireball (around 8 damage less than now).
  • Alternatively, Support requirement on Fireball and Strength on Plasma Bolt;
    - They will still retain their usefullness but for crying out loud, you don't have to abuse it or you'll get nerfs.

    Mercenaries:
  • Higher Dex requirement on Double Strike and perhaps Technology on Berzerker OR HA back to Dexterity, bump up DS' requirement to 14 Dex and +3 per level for up to 41 Dex at Lvl 10 & Zerker to Technology;
    - Yes they get more defence but they already forgoe Tech and Support could give them higher chance to go 1st and Crits.

    Others:
  • Make Stun Grenade, Plasma Grenade and Overload equal (damage and EP costs). Maul is fine as it is.
  • Make offensive cores (i.e. Meteor) be unblockable but not being able to rage them, at all. You can Crit but that's if you get lucky.
  • Azrael's Will to be revised;
    - Instead of using the core and 100% chance you'll strike the enemy, implement a roll that will calculate it based on your and your opponent's stats;
    - If you fail the safe then you will be forced to strike. Otherwise the effect may do nothing at all. Yes it is a nerf but it'd still retain usefullness and be based more on stats than abuse. The save would be in the user's favour but the enemy would have some chance to not get forced to Strike.

    Let me see. FB + PB change would get rid off Casters and Str abusers who may abuse it or they'll just have less stats. Mercs will have to invest in other stats rather than Strength + Dex which will lower the damage down really due to lower amount of stats + less EP means they gotta train some. Crits and Rage revision could fix it even further but this can wait more than a week (or a day..). And non-abuseable cores would be good, because srsly.



    • RageSoul -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 7:19:58)

    Supported !



    Scyze -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 7:21:00)

    I absolutely hate the new Gun's core. Forcing you to attack and it will screw up over a lot of the time. Cyber Hunters with the guns absolutely ruin my day. First off, high support and health. Barely any dexterity and technology...

    Unblockable cores should not stay as they are. Also, if they don't count to your rage, that will be better.



    theholyfighter -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 7:21:56)

    quote:

    absolutely hate the new Gun's core. Forcing you to attack and it will screw up over a lot of the time. Cyber Hunters with the guns absolutely ruin my day. First off, high support and health. Barely any dexterity and technology...

    Not just CHs....


    IMO "AT LEAST" make the "force strike" unblockable.



    Ranloth -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 7:25:03)

    That's why having it work on stats + making a save (AQ players will know more about how it works) could work in your favour; not 100% chance to be forced to Strike but their stats and yours would make difference + let's not make it work based on just Support either. >.>

    And unblockable cores, if not rageable, will be better than they are now since it won't be guaranteed attack for 110-113% damage (Thorns, Meteors, etc.). Not counting towards rage is.. eh, I'd rather wait for Rage revision which should fix Rage as a whole instead of temporary patch.



    Blitzex/Sr. Zeph -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 7:29:40)

    That all, you dont do anything against support buildS?



    bigepicstar -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 7:31:40)

    quote:

    With recent fixes making builds go both ways - either nerfed by quite a bit or buffed by a lot - there has to be some kind of balance to make the game playable without the need of stat abuse. Or not on such scale at least. I've thought of quick fixes by reading people's posts but also some common sense.

    Plasma Bolt's cost up to 33 EP and same scaling as Fireball (around 8 damage less than now).
    Alternatively, Support requirement on Fireball and Strength on Plasma Bolt;
    - They will still retain their usefullness but for crying out loud, you don't have to abuse it or you'll get nerfs.
    Higher Dex requirement on Double Strike and perhaps Technology on Berzerker OR HA back to Dexterity, bump up DS' requirement to 14 Dex and +3 per level for up to 41 Dex at Lvl 10 & Zerker to Technology;
    - Yes they get more defence but they already forgoe Tech and Support could give them higher chance to go 1st and Crits.
    Make Stun Grenade, Plasma Grenade and Overload equal (damage and EP costs). Maul is fine as it is.
    Instead of lowering Res to that of Def to make them equal, Def should've been raised to make it equal with Res. That'd be defensive buff to deal with high damage due to HP being changed (1 HP/stat).
    Take off ~10 EP that was given to all classes and leave the scaled one. This will lower the abuse;
    - Train EP so a bit less damage or defence, either will benefit you.
    Revise Rage/Crits as soon as possible; the way they work and % ignored when they happen.
    Make offensive cores (i.e. Meteor) be unblockable but not being able to rage them, at all. You can Crit but that's if you get lucky.
    Azrael's Will to be revised;
    - Instead of using the core and 100% chance you'll strike the enemy, implement a roll that will calculate it based on your and your opponent's stats;
    - If you fail the safe then you will be forced to strike. Otherwise the effect may do nothing at all. Yes it is a nerf but it'd still retain usefullness and be based more on stats than abuse.

    Let me see. FB + PB change would get rid off Casters and Str abusers who may abuse it or they'll just have less stats. Mercs will have to invest in other stats rather than Strength + Dex which will lower the damage down really due to lower amount of stats + less EP means they gotta train some. Crits and Rage revision could fix it even further but this can wait more than a week (or a day..). And non-abuseable cores would be good, because srsly.



    I agree whit everything and support it too.



    Ranloth -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 7:34:37)

    And what do you suggest? Rage revision would hopefully weaken Rage slightly to the point where it won't be abused easily, and it works off Support. Buffing defence a little could aid those who invest in Tech and Dex more than it'd do for Support abusers. Lower EP could lower Support a bit since they couldn't loop as easily.

    What would you suggest then? Possible solutions are:
  • Lower Support progression
  • Longer cooldown on Aux (baaaaaad)
  • Deal with skills that are abused and work off Support
    - Malf
    - Merc's Multi
    - FC + BC

    These are the most abused ones + Aux. Best way to go is diminishing Support progression at higher ranges (past.. 80-90 maybe?). It's the SIMPLEST way to deal with them rather than nerf skills and still get abuse.



    • Blitzex/Sr. Zeph -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 8:43:30)

    quote:

    Lower Support progression

    This one.
    Worked for str builds, will also work for support builds



    Promaster -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 8:50:08)

    ^
    And by doing what they did to str for support, you're actually making everyone use tanky builds, and that would lead to a lack of diversity. When that does happen, the naturally tanky classes will most likely prevail. Now, we dont want that to happen, do we?

    I'd say to diminish support at higher ranges like what Trans suggested or simply have stat requirements for listed skills that are commonly abused. However, i only experience problems with extreme stat abuse builds, not so much for just normal support builds, so the nerf to support builds shouldn't be too severe as to cripple the build entirely.



    Ranloth -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 9:34:09)

    Yeah, higher ranges only not lowering it across the board. It's fine early on, it's only an issue when it comes to abuse which is usually near/above 100 points in one stat (such as Str - which was dealt with - and Support now). Easy fix and it can balance a lot instead of nerfing skills over and over (i.e. Static Charge). I'd say just go for stat diminishing at high range, changing skills can affect non-abusers much more than abusers thus making it worse in the long run.

    These fixes are.. pitifully easy. Not being biased towards my own suggestion but I swear that half of those would deal with most abuse we get so far. This includes Support, Casters, Strenth abuse (BMs; Fireball), Mercenaries, somewhat TLMs (DS + Dex requirement but MA already has Dex but oh well), buff to defence will benefit everyone, and lower EP will prevent easy abuse of skills unless you invest in it (thus lowering own damage and/or defence).

    *P.S. The same avatars may be misleading for people but it's funny XD*



    Midnightsoul -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 9:37:19)

    I don't think support needs to be lowered in progression, but I do think malfunction and first strike are problems.



    Mother1 -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 10:19:18)

    Rabble's new formula for support is what is now OP Support spammers. 2 vs 2 how now become nightmare on support street. with the way it is now I hope they don't make heal improve with support. That would make the game be support spammer or die.



    RabbleFroth -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 13:54:14)

    Some pretty good feedback. Agree with several of the points in the OP.

    One thing I'd like to see more of in suggestions is what you think is an issue, and why the proposed solution would fix it.
    A lot of balance suggestions are just the how which is often not enough. Sometimes it helps to drill deeper into what the underlying problem is to make sure you're fixing the core issue and not just applying bandages.

    A quick example: Removing the +10 EP all classes received at the start of Omega (Note: I don't disagree with this idea, just using it as an example).
    Is the issue that players have too much EP (possibly), or is it also that there are a lot more options now that don't even require energy (like cores)?
    Could it also be that battles are shorter now than they were before so less energy is needed to sustain yourself?

    If any of these are the main issue, then they will probably remain issues even if everyone loses 10 EP.

    Additionally, an undesired side effect of this is that it greatly affects lower level players (1-10 or so).
    Right now lower level battles are far more interesting than they were before because of the extra pool of energy you have to actually use skills instead of just thwacking each other over and over 90% of the time.


    quote:

    Rabble's new formula for support is what is now OP Support spammers

    The new formula didn't give a massive increase in chance to go first per point of Support. It mostly made it MUCH easier to understand, and gave us more levers to pull in order to balance it well.



    Ranloth -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 14:18:31)

    I have whole thread filled with Balance suggestions so my explanation was there, although some can be outdated with Omega change. Main issue are abusers so explanation isn't really *that* needed although justifying why such change should be done is needed.

    Issue with EP is the excessive amount of it. Since it scales and skills have static cost, you get more and more Energy which allows spamming skills. Cores may be free but they are one-time use only and in longer fights, you will have to think when to use the core rather than spamming it. High base Energy already allows high-damage moves to be spammed easily, especially with Reroute, and even those without EP regen can do a pretty good combo without a need to train Energy at all thus leading to abuse of certain skills which seem OP but really.. aren't.

    Lower levels are an issue here, yeah. Requirements being one of them but since our stats are scaled (HP and EP), we do have a few more stat points to move around therefore making it easier than before Omega to meet those requirements at lower level. Maxing one skill and spamming it - such as Plasma Bolt + Reroute combo at lower level - should be discouraged early on because defence is useless and it's all about offence. That's where OP builds also come from. Requirements make it harder to spam a certain skill (and stat) thus getting easy win at cost of abuse. Whilst high <insert stat here> may give you a good build, abusing it and actually having better chance to win (such as 100 Str vs. 160 Str) means that there's something wrong. Having higher Strength (as an example) results in lower defence but these should average out for the person who has 100 Strength because they can invest stats into defence instead.

    I hope that somewhat made sense. o.O xD



    ReinVI -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 14:32:42)

    @ Trans ~ Trans~lation in english! Pretty much there should be drawbacks for abuse of a stat .. you shouldn't be able to have the same defensive power as someone with 100str 40dex/tech if you have
    140 str and 20dex/tech ( obviously this is just a example XD )

    And what about the excessive amounts of health you can have now? most people still don't bother with tech or dex.. the current TM will normally spam supp to 100+ then put the rest of there points to filling in req than all left over points will be put towards hp and getting it to 100+ making it harder and harder since you can't play offensively against them since obviously odds are now they will
    go first/ there debuff will make swift work of you...



    Promaster -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 15:31:19)

    @Trans: I almost thought i accidentally posted twice if it wasnt for your coloured font. >.<

    @On Topic: The new formula doesn't really favor high support users much in my opinion. I only have 67 support and yet i went first almost every time today.
    What needs fixing is the two active azreal cores. The fact that it deals 100% damage and still apply the effects of the core is too overwhelming when used after malfunction.
    Malf normally takes away 40-50+ tech, followed up by the aux which weakens our shield that was used to counter malf, then the gun to force us to strike. Both these attacks add up to deal over 50-60 damage (w/o crits), and rage will very much finish us off after we were forced to strike.

    Assuming mages with these weapons go first, it's highly unlikely to counter this strategy of theirs. And with the fact that hp now only increases by 1 per point and resistance being slightly nerfed after the current patch, it's just too much damage dealt in these first 3-4 turns for us to recover from.

    *The numbers stated were based on my own experiences, and varies with each individual.*

    Yes, the yeti special could counter this strategy and gives some players a chance of winning, however, must it really be neccesary for players to own the yeti in order to have a fighting chance? If that's so, something is definitely wrong here. And do note that the extreme support mage builds were only dominating this much after the azreal promo. Before that, i didn't have much problems fighting against them. As such in my own POV, these two active cores are the root of the problem and will hence suggest measures to nerf them down a little. With this, I have concluded the why part of the issue.

    Hence my solutions to these problems would be as of the following.

    1. Make the damage dealt when using the core to deal only 50%-75% damage, and not allow deadly aim's passive damage to be dealt when using the core of the gun.

    2. Add a 2 or 3 turn warm up to the active cores.

    3. When the opponent is forced to strike, it will be unblockable and deal 110%-120%.

    These are only my suggested solutions, however, i am not asking for all three of my solutions to be implimented. Players paid for these items and as such, these cores should not be nerfed too much as to make it useless in battle. The first solution is the one that i really feel is needed to be implemented, while the other two solutions are just ways to prevent the strategy from being used early in the fight or by making the active core from the gun a double-edged sword. Note that i am in no way trying to nerf the mages as a whole, but rather just the overwhelming combos used in conjunction with these active cores.

    However, should the cores be decided not to be nerfed, these are my solutions.

    1. Have the progression of tech to be like how it used to be previously, and have the progression of dex to be the same as the previous progression for tech.

    Now, you might wonder how buffing dex is a solution to this, and here is my answer. When lesser skill points are needed for the same amount of defence we have now, we will have extra points to allocate to other stats. And with this, we can further increase our resistance or just increase our hp directly with these extra points.
    Sure, battles will be longer, but this will allow players to think more for their strategy as well, and allow more diversity for builds as well. It's more fun to have longer battles that actually gives us a fighting chance rather than just being 3HKO and not being able to do anything.

    2. Increase support progression after 90. I'm sure nothing needs to be explained about this.

    3. Stat requirements. I believe Trans have already mentioned it enough for me to not repeat it here in my post.

    4. Decrease the cooldown of field medic from 4 to 3. This'll allow builds to heal at least twice more often in a battle to help counter builds that deal high DPT.

    As of now, these are the only solutions that I think of to help with balancing the game. I am in no way trying to over-nerf the two active cores, nor am i venting my losses towards the extreme support mages in any way. The only extreme support build that is really considered OP now are the mages. The support mercs are strong, but not too strong that it's considered OP for now. They are still fairly counter-able due to their lack of an offensive debuff ( Like mages with malfunction ).



    Ranloth -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 15:46:31)

    I'll disagree with Heal one. Please no. Heal-looping era would be back, especially for those with Reroute which could turn out even worse.. 4 turn cooldown is good enough. Not everyone may rely on Heal to survive high damage, take that into the account. Skill is universal but shouldn't also be a necessity to use thus allowing some to abuse it would be also wrong.

    After things would be fixed and balanced, especially Support, we could give it small scaling back of say 1 HP/6 Support (for example). It's not that good but it won't be abuseable and make up for the high damage received in fights; Tanks will likely invest in all stats rather than forgoe one (like Strength users ditch Support completely). But lowering the cooldown is something I'd be against unless you want heal-loop back. TLMs would be disastrous with it + Infernal Android.



    Lycan. -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 20:06:06)

    Azraels will definately needs to be revised, it's the most op skill ever.
    If you look on todays 1v1 the only ones that have 75% win rate are the ones using the azrael promo, i think the devs are secretly trying to make varium players have an advantage against non varium players, or maybe they just want money so varium players who want to be op will buy..

    EDIT: MAYBE give it a 3 turn warmup?



    hijinks -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 20:10:53)

    The only thing I like to happen is for raising resistance and defense rate up. The skill cores need a nerf too though.



    Goony -> RE: Patches to fix balance (2/23/2013 21:51:19)

    I agree with the excessive energy issue!

    If it is unreasonable to lower levels to remove the initial boost (+10) then how about removing the level gained EP or modifying it from 1 every 2 levels to 1 every 5 levels. So at level 35 this would result in the net loss of 10EP ;) I'd like the level gained EP to be removed completely and have players train EP, thus forcing them to remove stats from other areas if they want to chain high damage skills together over 4 rounds!

    For an example of how people are using this: High HP Cyber Hunter

    The available EP points allows this player to have a high chance to go 1st, use malfunction, aux, azreal will (forcing opponent to strike) and then using massacre to kill...

    But, I also want to justify this by saying I was able to defeat this player using this build: Mercenary build

    I went second, atom smash, yeti chomp, heal, azreal will (blocked his rage) BC and then battle was extended long enough for me to win!

    I'd also like to point out that there has been an increase in support and technology builds after the update and a lot of comments about how OP they are! Yet that nothing build that I have is managing to hold it's own against most classes and builds. Balance is not as bad as is being made out and I know that Rabblefroth has some further changes that will probably throw up some more issues...

    If we can get more comment like this:

    quote:

    The power I see currently is the base damage for our weapons is too high, for example because our weapons are + 35 damage that automatically makes a move like mass do 70 damage with +100% damage and it just stacks on with basic strength, the problem isn't basic strength I think its weapon strength.


    Instead of comments like this:

    quote:

    A cyber hunter with no shadow arts blocked every single strike that is 100% block while non Hunter classes don't even block 25% of the time.


    One comment explains the reason using facts, while the other is just heresay with no validity whatsoever :)

    Just on the skill core issue, I agree that some may be a bit OP, but changing them after people have purchased them is not an option right now in my opinion! The skill core pool is limited right now and until the numbers available become sufficient enough to create counters for them all then it will appear unbalanced to some players!

    When we get some more testers and have them trained then it may become easier for Rabblefroth to see through the haze of undefined balance issues that plague this forum!

    Good thread, keep the pro active comments coming :)



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