Support- Problem lies (INDIRECTLY) in the first strike. (Full Version)

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Vypie -> Support- Problem lies (INDIRECTLY) in the first strike. (2/24/2013 0:55:26)

The problem with Support is that it gives so many perks at once, which are Overpowered when abused.


Support can be used offensively and defensively. It can power a WHOLE build.
Shields/buffs, malfunction, Aux, artillery, etc. It is devastating, because to be useful and deal damage, you don't need much more. You can kill in three-four turns easily.

You don't need Dexterity, your damage comes from unblockables.
With cores like azreal gun, you can protect yourself.
Tech mages, for example, can destroy your Resistance with malfunction, negate your smoke and other tech-powered moves moves.
With such low Resistance, any attack deals good damage.

With tons of support:
You will probably not get crit. You will crit a lot, maybe once per fight or two?
Stuns will most likely not stop you.
If going full offensive, rage comes in the third turn, usually.


And I'm sure I could talk about more, this information was just a, overview, not a deep approach.
What I want to say is... all these perks support gives are not the problem by themselves, while they all give a huge boost together.

_____


The REAL problem lies with the change to go First strike, and I will explain why:

For each point of support over your adversary, you get 1.5% extra chance to go first.
This means a player with 34 support over the enemy is guaranteed to attack first.

Now.. I am completely fine when a player with + 34 support than me goes first. It's fair.


..

....HOWEVER!
This is where the problem begins: When you know you will go first 100% of the time against a non support abuser, Builds can be created with having that in mind.

You can be assured you will go first, so you can sacrifice defenses. You have a faster setup against your opponent.
You can work your build around you going always the first turn.
If you are a malfunction user, smoke will be useless against you, as you will always debuff the enemy first.
Ultimates are most of the time useless... the enemy will probably die before that. Going first with immense offensive power is too much.

When you can KNOW FOR SURE you are going first, there are no risks to take on a build like that.
Those builds would die easily if they went second.

The small probability of going second, despite the support abuse, prevented players from doing this. It HAD the chance to fail.
Now that it cannot, players take advantage, and extremes happen.




Mother1 -> RE: Support- Problem lies (INDIRECTLY) in the first strike. (2/24/2013 1:47:03)

People were complaining that they were abusing support in the past and it never made them go first. Goony reported this to rabble and he changed it. Now those support abusers get it almost all the time now.

Personally I think the chance to go first needs to be like field medic is now. In other words doesn't improve with any stat and is determined randomly sort of like the old formula since it was more random then fixed like this.




Midnightsoul -> RE: Support- Problem lies (INDIRECTLY) in the first strike. (2/24/2013 9:46:01)

I think personally think they need to lower it from every point of support over ur opponent gives u a +1.5% to strike first down to +1%




ED Prince of Shadows -> RE: Support- Problem lies (INDIRECTLY) in the first strike. (2/24/2013 10:01:26)

If they remove the chance to go first, deflections must be given back to support.




Mother1 -> RE: Support- Problem lies (INDIRECTLY) in the first strike. (2/24/2013 10:29:17)

@ ed

support has enough as it is. Before this was done support was strong but thanks to rabble's new formula as OP said support is being extremely abused to destroy majority of the builds. Giving support back deflection for making going first random again? No just no.




Giras Wolfe -> RE: Support- Problem lies (INDIRECTLY) in the first strike. (2/24/2013 10:51:35)

All that is true, except I have never raged on the third turn. Maybe because my build only has 105 support.

Anyway, like you said I can confirm all of this is true. I always go first against low support builds, allowing me to apply a -49 Technology nerf.

The initial strike problem is compounded by Azrael's will, which I use on the second turn. Many, many types of builds can't deal with going 2nd to a huge malf, then being forced to strike, then getting hit with a massive aux attack.

And if that combo doesnt work I have max overload with a formidable stun chance waiting in the wings.

I believe it should be lowered from 1.5% to 1%, as has been previously stated. Also, we might have to look at giving azraels will a 2 turn warmup.




RabbleFroth -> RE: Support- Problem lies (INDIRECTLY) in the first strike. (2/25/2013 12:12:19)

It actually was 1% in the first iteration of the new formula. I changed it because at 1% it felt like it just didn't have *enough* impact, especially compared to the old formula in most cases.

quote:

When you know you will go first 100% of the time against a non support abuser, Builds can be created with having that in mind.

A great point. I feel that building in order to go first should be a decision you have available to you, but it should come at some cost. Right now that cost just isn't high enough.




Melbourne -> RE: Support- Problem lies (INDIRECTLY) in the first strike. (2/25/2013 12:17:13)

I'm really happy with support (I do not use it myself for clarification) Everyone was complaining about support needing a well needed buff and it has received it. Be thankful! Thanks :D




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