Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (Full Version)

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Remorse -> Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/27/2013 23:11:07)

I think it's a bit unfair to have two special effects in the game capable of reducing any type of buff to useless levels.

I propose a restriction nerf to both of these weapon's specials so that if you want the full effect of being able to reduce all buffs you will have to have both the gear equipped therefore having an opportunity cost of having a different piece of equipment equipped for a different core effect.


The restriction:
Make the azreal borg and the azreal aux special work on the two different types of buffs separately,
As in make azreal borg work only on direct amour shields (defense matrix, energy shields, blood shield.)
And the azreal aux work only on stat buffs. ( technician, reflex boost, field commander, blood commander)
(or vice versa)


This means that if you decide to use this equipment to effortlessly defeat those who use shields to counter you then you would need to have both pieces of equipment to stop shields of all types working.

It will also mean that variety in these cores will increase, their is no point in releasing 2 cores with the exact same effect..

It will make these builds more counter-able in other ways and perhaps give a suffeicent enough nerf to reverse the damage both these azreal equipment has had on shield counters and therefore debuff spammers.




This is not the only nerf I am hoping for these weapons, I also hope their are some other damage nerfs etc. to the azreal cores with full power but this thread is to discuss the above proposal.




Also when considering the fact that peoples rares will be nerfed which is apparently, "unfair" What is unfair is to not nerf these things for the sack of better balance.

People with OP rare gear should always be willing to accept any nerfs they get just as I am despite being the owner of the azreal gear, I am completely willing for the to go as far as to completely remove the gear if need be.

But Im sure they can come up with a sufficient enough nerf before they get to that stage.




What do you guys think?

Discuss!




Exploding Penguin -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/27/2013 23:42:06)

I think that reducing Azrael's torment down to 55% or 50% would already be a great nerf to it, as that grants an extra 2-3 defense on matrix and an extra 5-6 stat points on stat buffs. Also, I'd suggest buffing Heart Attack so that it does 80-85% instead of normal bot damage.



Mother1 -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 0:08:32)

@ remorse

Yes to nerfing the aux damage when using it for the effect. Every other core in the game that uses an effect and damage does less then 100% damage yes this promo does 100% damage. Maybe bringing down the damage to that of the azreal's borg special when you use it to break shields.

However for the other idea not supported and never supported.

Your idea would turn the azreal's borg in what everyone truly calls it a breaker of shields. As it is now it can be used as a means of defense against those who use stat buffs to power up moves. However, with your idea anyone with this bot wouldn't be able to do that. Now it wouldn't be so bad for the people who don't own the aux and own the bot and can't afford the promo because it is coming back in a year for all. However for those who own the aux but not the bot they will have no means of getting through blood shield, energy shield, or reflex boost since the azreal's borg isn't coming back.

Also why should people be forced to have both of these items if they want to go through buffs?




Exploding Penguin -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 0:15:38)

I think concussive shot should actually be brought up to 100% damage, as it is virtually useless unless it gets field medic. This way it would balance out almost completely with Azrael's torment. Secondly, I feel (as stated before) that Azrael's torment should just be nerfed slightly by around a 10-15% on the buff reduction. After doing this, I'm seeing that concussive shot and azrael's torment would be pretty much near equal, with the exception that Azrael's torment is just slightly stronger because of the fact that it's a seasonal promo.



Remorse -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 0:26:33)

@ Mother yes those who dont have the rare won't be able to go through all shields, THAT is the most benefitting part.


Having a weapon that ruins shields was a terrible idea to begin with.



But I do understand how azreal borg won't be able to be used as a defense, if that is the case then simply get the aux and use that,


If you can't afford it now wait next year when its sold ingame.




If a rare azreal borg is the only equipment that can go through direct shields then it will do wonders on balance.


The defense side of those weapons can be left to the aux which everyone will be able to attain, and the cheap aggressive azreal bog technique will be nerfed because they will have to deal weak robot damage rather then support spammed high aux damage.


Please try to think of this on a non personal matter, I know you have the borg and like it's defense style but for the good of balance can you not accept that being switched to the aux only?

Or vice versa.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 0:59:36)

It's true that it can be used for defensive means as well, particularly since blood commander's lifsteal bonus got massively buffed. Lots of dependency on defensive buffs in Omega, though, given all the luckbased cores and heavy hit builds



Remorse -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 9:58:34)

^

Indeed,
Hence my thread insisting they make more defensive skill cores.




midnight assassin -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 10:20:55)

What if the specials would only be chance?



Remorse -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 10:59:53)

^ IMO chance is worse.

It will only turn battles even more luck based then it is now.


Chance based skill core effects were already unbalanced and Im glad the devs turned a lot of them to activateables.


Turning something to chance never gets rid of the OP factor, nerfing a certain activateable has the potential to make things balanced every time.



Drianx -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 17:36:40)

Let's speak about the reason you posted this suggestion for.

quote:

I think it's a bit unfair to have two special effects in the game capable of reducing any type of buff to useless levels.


A bit unfair, huh? For who? And if your suggestion is applied, it won't be a bit unfair anymore? Or it will be a bit less unfair?

I would have understood if you suggested this for the sake of diversity, but unfair?

Shallow reason, in my opinion.



Ranloth -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 17:45:51)

Useless level, you say? 65% isn't that bad, it was 80% before.. Same with Assault Bot, it was capable of rendering Smoke and Malf useless yet that was.. fair. Just no. Cherish the fact it's actually 35% you retain instead of 20%. They are forced to have these effects so you have your own instead which may be unfair for them. Simple as.

The effects are perfectly fine. If problem is reducing the debuff and high damage, give it a damage penalty when using the effect to reduce the buffer's effect. Nothing else. Don't change something that is perfectly fine.

Btw, I speak from the perspective of not having neither, the Aux nor the Bot.



Remorse -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (2/28/2013 22:33:34)

@ Drianx,

I did state for diversity as well, If you read the whole post you would of seen me stating many reasons so next time read a whole post before you judge.



@ Trans

I disagree I think the effects of the buffs of build diversities is the problem, because they lack decent counter apart from shields for debuffs it's hard for a lot of classes to play defensive at all and win when versing these opponents and lowering diversity like that is just not right.



midnight assassin -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (3/1/2013 2:58:31)

In my opinion it will be better than a sure hit. 0% chance of winning oh come on.



Ranloth -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (3/1/2013 5:51:57)

quote:

I disagree I think the effects of the buffs of build diversities is the problem, because they lack decent counter apart from shields for debuffs it's hard for a lot of classes to play defensive at all and win when versing these opponents and lowering diversity like that is just not right.

Effect of the debuffs is then the same. You cannot say one thing about buffs and disagree when it comes to debuffs. Both do the same thing but opposite (instead of adding, it takes away), and there are 2 Bots that do the same thing to both of them (lower by 65%). If you say Azrael is bad then so is Assault. Besides, Azrael is a rare Bot. It started off with 80%, bumped down to 65% and you wanna nerf it even further + likewise with the core on the weapon. Yes you can nerf promo items but if they are fine, there's no issue with it. Nerf Azrael and you nerf Assault too. If % goes down then what's the point of the Bot? It costs a turn to use it which - potentially - can lead to your death instead. Account for that rather than think it needs a nerf for no real reason. A turn wasted on using an effect can be the difference between life or death because you're left defenceless against the next attack (nor deal any damage).

Lowering %s won't fix your "diversity". Players will hate on the Bot/core for being so crap and nerfed way too far (it was 80%, as a Varium item too) yet there's no need to change it. It'll be crap and players won't use it anymore and switch to better Bots. How about Mercs who don't have a counter to any Shields but Assault Bot? Don't think of yourself and some sort of diversity. If you don't like the effects, don't use Shields. They waste a turn, you waste a turn but you retain 35% of it and not take in any damage (or very little) that turn thus you can pull ahead. Don't use the Shield/buffer and you will only miss out on the 35% and they won't waste a turn debuffing you.

No one finds a problem with these effects, not even Devs since they were rebalanced AND they were fine with these new values which strongly implies that there's (as I've said), NOTHING wrong and neither will that be changed.



Remorse -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (3/1/2013 7:22:23)

^ Completely opinion based.


I personally never liked the effect the very first bot, the assault bot had on the game.


To me that was the turning point from the brilliantly fun beta period to a pitiful disgrace they call balance.


Yes beta had it's balance issues but it was nothing compared to the brilliant effect of counters and the massive variety in builds in comparison.




Ranloth -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (3/1/2013 7:30:09)

Ah, mine is opinion and yours is facts? Yours is very much a biased opinion with "unfairness" which there.. isn't. Bots are here to counter certain skills/items, it's your choice to use them or not. Diversity by nerfing? Yeah, 2 Bots become useless and you see players use the same Bots. Where's the diversity thou is speaking of?

quote:

To me that was the turning point from the brilliantly fun beta period to a pitiful disgrace they call balance.

Yep. Because Beta was any better in terms of balance. Heal-looping era, Casters, Mercs were still powerful. Pitiful disgrace they call balance? I don't see how flaming it helps. But whatever you say, Rem.



Remorse -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (3/1/2013 7:35:09)

You do know the terms, "I personally", "to me"


Means that I am merely saying my own opinion never did I say I am right, or that what I say is "fact".


I have a different opinion I accept yours is different but for some reason you can't handle mine being different from yours....


If so why would you undermine mine by claiming I think its a fact....


It is my opinion that these bots restrict variety so nerfing them should be widening variety.


It's fine if you don't agree but don't flame bait me by saying I am flaming.



P.S flame baiting is against the forum rules if you don't know.



Stabilis -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (3/1/2013 7:42:48)

Remorse,

You have said on my thread that my post was an opinion and that I could not discuss with yours because although you gave a counter-argument, it was simply an opinion as well. There is such a thing as being too proud to negotiate. So why are we even bothering to discuss even the most little or most big things if you dash our responses as "just an opinion" or "opinion-based". I am not mad but I am disappointed.



Remorse -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (3/1/2013 7:48:49)

I reach that end depressed because I realize our arguments have hit a dead end where once the base of the argument is reached, We both have completely opposite opinions on the base argument.



In this case trans thinks the bots don't lower variety, I do.


We both put arguments towards our opinion yet it has not changed neither of our opinions.



I am willing to put up more pointless arguments if it would make you guys feel better,


But I admit I am very stubborn on my opinions.

Probably got it from my father...




Stabilis -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (3/1/2013 8:12:49)

The thing is, I change my quota when someone discovers something more: convenient, simple, voluminous (affects more things / has a wider scope), or even refined (manipulates [not always a bad thing] my goal into a more fixed version). But, if someone offers an alternate solution to your problem but is not related to your solution at all you do not have this "feeling" of accomplishment or pride and that is why you would get aggressive or defensive.

Anyhow, on the topic of this thread:

I agree that the 2 cores mentioned should be balanced but differentiated. Heart Attack is the same as Torment but with less damage, but also Torment uses the Auxiliary which far exceeds the usefulness of a Robot (like deflectable vs blockable or a faster rate of progression). Torment should be weaker but Heart Attack should not be weaker or stronger. I say this because being a Robot, the user is limited to it's 1 special ability when they could have Infernal Overload or Infernal Swarm for example. And like Torment, Heart Attack is selective in it's usability. Only when a shield is encountered it can be used. Once. If a second shield arrives, there is nothing. Longer battles will procure these situations, and for that reason I support your nerf to Azrael's Torment but I also suggest a larger bonus to health from level.



Remorse -> RE: Azreal borg and aux special seperation. (3/1/2013 23:47:50)

^


I see were you are coming from depressed,

I must often seem to come off as stubborn, too proud to admit I am wrong,



But I do often change my opinion based on other peoples arguments,


every now and then you will see that I do compliment people for their great crative ideas, and ever now and then I am given a complete different outlook on something based in their arguments.




I will try to be more open to change if it appears I am closed off to much.



On topic I am happy you agree that something has to be changed to mix these two skills up.






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