RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (Full Version)

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Trae -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/9/2013 15:39:31)

Not supported
off topic I am enjoying myself seeing Goldslayer and trans go at it no offense meant to anyone I just find it amusing




toopygoo -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/9/2013 19:38:43)

i think this is their problem: they dont do mass testing before releasing a new patch.

just take 150 willing players, let them into a private server that can run without any connection issues from their end, for 6 hours.
supply a "god mode" where changing stats is free, any weapon is available, class changes are free (these changes would remain only on this server, and do not apply to the full server)

spread the player levels from 5-35

allow them to test balance builds and report what goes well and what doesnt. you could fix any extreme problems within 12 hours of a release of a new patch.

Build COPYING isnt the problem. its the fact that there isnt a very legitaimate ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS system.
what would work much better (i found this from an experience of competitive online MMORPG play... which i had to quit to do school issues :/)
You dont mix skills to give a POTENTIAL reversal on a build, because then OP builds dominate 1v1.
you give exact builds to DOMINATE over another build, and be beaten by a different kind. not just Damage versus Defence ^ Luck, but its about the luck of what enemies you face.

consider this:
there is no longer a SINGLE OP build, but however every class has an OP build to another class. and you make the builds buildable forwards and backwards, so its a two way triangle. thus now you have 6, OP builds that work as following:
Dominate 2 potential builds,
Be dominated by 2 potential builds,
and have a neutral stand point to another build (except multiply this by 2 because there are 6 classes not three)
basically everyone has a 1:1 win/loss chance at the same level on 1v1.

this would take strategy to a whole new level for 2v2, because you only have the potential to counter one other build. it also takes out the 2v1 problem, because of the potential for defeating one other player is huge.

this would make Juggernaut a new level of challenge, not because you can be killed easily, but becasue you now have to find a balance between two superbuilds that allow you to overcome atleast one other player with ease, and create a 1v1 situation ASAP, which still has a chance of being the death of you.

ultimately this would involve reworking the schematics of the entire game, and all of the classes, but until there is a super-blanace created, there will always be just one or 2 OP builds, that seem to have a dominating advantage 95% of all other types of builds.




Mother1 -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/9/2013 19:46:18)

quote:

its the fact that there isnt a very legitaimate ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS system.


The problem with this is that when someone comes across a build they can't beat (which could very well be their natural counter) and the masses start using this build said people who are weak against this build lose a lot and when this happens that is when they cry for NERF NERF NERF so they can win once again.

It isn't the matter of rock paper scissors it is the matter that they are losing a lot, and they want to win again without changing.




toopygoo -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/9/2013 20:09:02)

in rock paper scissors you have one of three options:
you win
you lose
you tie

that is how a CORRECT game of rock paper scissors work
there is no one outstanding build that wins more because they are all meant to win equally

thus you dont need to keep nerfing for balance because naturally everyone ha the same win rate except special enhancements: (these would be special promos/ varium items)

your scissors can block rock
your paper can tie scissors
your rock can flatten paper again

unless you have one of those three, EVERYONE's win rate should be close to 1:1 which is where it should be unless you spend money or are a complete fool.




toopygoo -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/9/2013 20:11:16)

you do realize, if it is one person complaining about one thing, they will not see fit to change it.
and unless you get many people to complain about the SAME thing, they still wont change it
if MANY people complain about the same problem, then that is most likely and legitimate problem....

just want to point that out before you tell me that rock paper scissors, people lose and complain (they are supposed to lose, and win equally. if they cant seem to win, its theyre own damn fault. that is the point of a rock paper scissors match)




Xendran -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/9/2013 20:13:24)

[5/7/2013 10:29:20 AM] You have your 3 build types
[5/7/2013 10:30:27 AM] Xendran: Extreme offence
Extreme Defence
Minimum HP

----

High Offence
Medium High defence
Medium HP

----

Very high offence, (Str, supp or a mix of both)
Low - Medium Defence
High HP




toopygoo -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/9/2013 20:24:51)

but there is no rock paper scissors effect in those:

medium damage+medium defence<High defence<high damage<high damage with life drain.

thats just how it is.
the only reason bounties and blood mages arent in complete control is because of support builds.

i have a 31 bounty that can 1v1 35 any build 3/5 times. (2/5 being all the support builds :/)




sk1tzo2020 -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/9/2013 20:35:40)

support builds aint a problem. In fact as a 35 bounty the only ever class and build i will 9/10 times lose to is high tech plasma bolt mage. I can counter high support mages with azreal by having a really high shield and hope for 1 block, which should happen in 1/3 matches, so support abuse is easily counterable. High tech+reroute+assim+plasma bolt=more less untouchable for a bounty at least. I emp, I use shards, I emp again, they still win. I emp, I use shards, I heal, they still win.

But then again a high support smashes them to bits, so I guess there is no 1 class 1 build beats all anymore. Thats where you get alot of complaints from.




toopygoo -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/9/2013 20:42:29)

mages can be tough with bounties, but its definitely do-able.
i have a tech build so i can smsoke well, and drain mana very well
in the meantime, between each of their attacks i can do minor heal by attacking, or or a big heal with energy or core, and drain them again. do you not have a gun for draining energy?
i recommend investing in one, as it does come in handy.




Sageofpeace -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/10/2013 6:54:49)

nope the reason that's making the game so unbalnce are all this noob complaining how everything is so OP and making the devs NERF NERF NERF everything

as the matter of fact the Devs are at fault for listening to players on the forum




toopygoo -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/10/2013 7:03:18)

but if they never made any changes we would still be at the beta phase....




Scratch -> RE: Build copying is why the game is so *unbalanced* (5/10/2013 19:26:25)

I do agree that build copying does "de-value" what are seen as OP builds, though I couldn't give a proper solution to that over a forum post. I also believe that people should first (when they encounter what they view as an OP build) to see if they can utilize a work around based on their character's abilities and if not then and only then should be they post their opinion. Even at that you'd have to make sure that it was a universally OP build meaning that the build dominates a majority of the other builds. I think this game is very balanced for the most part. There will always be some types of imperfection for that's the way of the universe. There should always be a counter to a build and if there's not that's when people should start complaining. I think something we need to realize is that, despite game balance improvements, varium users will always have an advantage over non-varium users. How much of an advantage is mostly up to the user and somewhat of their opponent. Anyways, I think build copying does have a major effect but I really couldn't provide a solution. I also don't like that they've went ahead and nerfed everything but it's discussions like this one that will help aid in the future success of the game if people are willing to listen.




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