Why is azrael's will such a problem? (Full Version)

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Exploding Penguin -> Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 0:59:54)

I'm just curious, as this core has not let to my death in about 90% of the fights which it has been used against me. First of all, please don't point out that I use them as well, because that is entirely irrelevant to how I counter or survive the core's effects. I have fought players who have azrael's will when I don't have the gun equipped, and I can assure you in many cases it doesn't make that much of a difference. Second, don't just say "because it gives the opponent a free turn" or "because it forces you to strike." I know what the core does, so I don't need explanations on what it does, I could use explanations on why some players find it extremely problematic.

So...please share your experiences. If you're describing a scenario, please describe your thought process as well. This thread is mainly meant for me to gather information, so please keep that in mind if you're posting. Thanks for spending your time helping me with this mini-research project!



Blitzex/Sr. Zeph -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 1:37:28)

To answer your question:
No idea bro.

I never had trouble countering it as a Bh, neither now as a TM.



ReconnaisX -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 1:59:53)

I don't really have trouble countering it until I do 1vs1. In 2vs2, my partner usually helps me out.



King FrostLich -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 5:33:08)

1.) In a 2v2 match when two of your opponents have this gun and have two strong debuffing skills(add the bazooka that nerfs down your shields).
2.) Allows surprise rage attacks or safe kills.
3.) Delays people to heal.



Blitzex/Sr. Zeph -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 6:02:41)

quote:

1.) In a 2v2 match when two of your opponents have this gun and have two strong debuffing skills(add the bazooka that nerfs down your shields).

Your point is..?
Azreals borg does the same thing.

quote:

Allows surprise rage attacks

Apparently, you do not know how the Rage meter works, or you would have known when he will Rage.
Not that hard to predict.

quote:

safe kills.

Depends on the opponents health.
All unblockable/undeflectable moves can be used for Safe kills.

quote:

Delays people to heal.

Same goes for
Concussive Shot
A Well timed Energy removal.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 6:21:02)

i have no idea too, they do not make much of a difference now.



Remorse -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 8:53:52)

The problem is that they promote the use of simple yet effective builds which become close to un-counter able.


Builds that use a similar strategy no matter what they verse and usually are only countered by not starting or luck.


For example all debuff builds were once easily countered by shields making them have to mix up their strategy for example debuffing in the turn that they would need to heal so they cant sheild was a good example of Strategy to verse shields builds.


Now using something like and azreal borg or aux is NOT! true strategy at all it is doing the obvious almost repetitive strategy to take advantage of the ED teams bad promo item decisions.



This goes for all new cores and robot ideas since beta that do a similar thing.


Effectively ruining counters of effortless spam and strategy-less fighting has ruined this game's enjoyment a fair deal to those who enjoy challenge and rewarded uniqueness in games.



IMO all types of counter preventing skills have slowly led to the games current boring state.




Im not saying all cores and weapon effects are bad, simple ones that make this game luck based effortless nothing.


some include:

-Aussult bot
-Azreal borg
-Both azreal promo weapons
-massive strike
- many more.





I have quit this game for obvious reasons,

But this is almost a last effort from me to help them fix it.


And what they need to do now is to create counters for the promo skills themselves.

Yes it will mean that the countering of cores will make them seam pointless to use to begin with but so to is making 2 cores with mirrior counteracting effects but slapping on a pointless fee.


+10% crit chance then a -10% chance to be crited means nothing has changed except for the coin in your pocket.

Something you players who still want to play this game need to realize.




Peace,

Remorse Less.



Melbourne -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 8:58:24)

That's what I feel is OP as well remorse.
Something very repetitive and requires no strategy, just rinse and repeat for wins.
And there is a counter to the azrael equipment such as the omega yeti, not sure why people forget that.



Remorse -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 9:02:09)

^ The omega yeti is great for that reason,

Problem is that it is not enough on its own.



Plus this problem will never be fixed if the ED team dont understand the proper mindset of their problems.



Creating more special effects like the yeti is what the devs need to do, but I dont think they even realize this after all the yeti was made before guns and auxs had activatable skill cores...



Once the devs realize that cores need to increase the build counter pool variety not decrease it, then they have already succeeded in a better game.



Till then their downward path is all I predict.



frogbones -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 10:45:49)

Like others have said, it's not as much a problem in 2v2. On the other hand, I challenge you to be a Merc and beat a Support-Strength Hunter or TM in 1v1. Unless you get lucky---very lucky---it is a guaranteed loss.

That is why it's OP, imo.

(And that's just one example.)



Mother1 -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 11:02:42)

@ remorse

You talk about epic duel needing counters to things yet when they make something to counter buffs and debuffs you are all against it. But on another note the assault bot is also a counter to the azreal's borg if you have a debuff on you as well as a buff.

On topic

The azreal's will forces you to strike when you would want to do something else and in certain situations it spells your doom. The Azreal's torment even though it is one time use is a recycled rerun of the azreal's borg and in the hands of the wrong build is extremely deadly.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 20:13:59)

@frogbones: I was just a merc and that happened to me. A single block or deflection, even if the opponent crit me (crit give virtually no rage to the user), pretty much doomed the opponent. And I was a tank focus, so it was highly plausible that I was going to block or deflect. 4/5 times I killed those TMs in 1v1.

@King Frostlich:
1. I can see this as being a problem if both opponents have the gun.
2. Since when was rage ever a surprise? I don't even need to calculate exactly how much rage the opponent has during a fight to know when he has rage. Safe kills aren't cheap or overpowered, and should never be called so in the first place. Safe kills should always exist with an extremely small margin given to possible blocks/deflects.
3. You should be able to tell when people are gonna do this anyways, and stop it before it happens with something like an EP remover.

@XMelbourneX:
If the opponent uses it in a fashion which lacks strategy, they're very easy to beat. If the opponent uses it in a tactical way, then it can be difficult to counter, but still possible with a large margin.

I accelerate my thinking to predict nearly all possible plausible situations 3 turns from the current one, so azrael's will was never a problem for me. I appreciate the gun's existence, even if it's used against me, because it promotes accelerated thinking. In my opinion, if you can't think this way and predict a possible situation where it's going to happen, you're never going to win against people who use it well, and then it'll be a well-deserved loss.

Basically, concerning azrael's will, you should never even let yourself be placed into the position where the opponent CAN use it in the supposedly "unfair" or "cheap ways" which many people have provided on this thread. If you let yourself slip into this position because you lacked skill to think strategically quickly (it's something you have to practice over a fair amount of time), then you will always find yourself in tough situations because of the gun.



Xendran -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 20:46:33)

quote:

If you let yourself slip into this position because you lacked skill to think strategically quickly (it's something you have to practice over a fair amount of time), then you will always find yourself in tough situations because of the gun.


This requires you to have a yeti. Often the situations are unavoidable, especially in 2v2.



hijinks -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 20:54:10)

Actually I have a hard time when facing the evil Azrael weapons. When I face anyone with the weapons, their chance of winning is higher than mine (who doesn't have much credits to buy much cores or money to buy promos). Especially when they have it synchronized with smokescreen or malfunction. When I win, it's if I get lucky. And that, doesn't happen very often as out of ten battles with others who have the weapons, I lose about 7-8 of them, even if I strike and use my skills strategically.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 22:15:41)

@xendran: I'm not using my yeti and yet I (sorry, just had to make that pun) still am able to avoid those tough situations. A yeti will definitely help a lot, but there's less straightforward ways to ensure a safe way of dealing with the core.

I acknowledge the gun's effect in 2v2 as a humongous problem though, so I'm mainly trying to stick to 1v1. Sorry about not clarifying that in the first post.



Mother1 -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 22:26:05)

@ exploding

For the build frogbones mentioned it is something I almost always lose to unless i get lucky especially if they are using the azreal's promo. I came up with some counters for this build but most of the time my build doesn't make it to round four and even if I do I get raged on.



frogbones -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 22:31:51)

The thing is, they never use a "strike" attack, except at first when they smoke or malf. Then it's meteor, Azrael gun, aux, rage whatever. Done.



Xendran -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 22:42:31)

Also, consider this: What other gun active is as powerful as AW?
None. There is no reason NOT to use it if you have it. That's inherently flawed game design.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 22:43:09)

@Mother1: Those builds are simply fast, they're not necessarily overpowered and their win rate, from what I've heard, is actually quite poor.

Using just estimated numbers, I'll say if I have equal dex and tech that my block chance against them would be about 20%, and my deflection chance about 22%-ish (extremely rough estimates). This is actually a low estimate, and it's probably much higher. Plus, I prefer the deflect core because it helps a LOT against these builds. So, 20% block and 28% deflection chance.

Turn 1: The enemy has an 80% of not being blocked. (4/5)
Turn 2: The enemy uses their aux/gun, with a 28% chance of being deflected. At this point, their chances of not having any blocks/deflects happening to them is (4/5 * 28/100).
Turn 3: The enemy uses their aux/gun again. (4/5 * (72/100)^2)
Turn 4: A bludgeon comes up. (((4/5)^2)) * ((72/100)^2))
Turn 5: Plasma meteor or meteor shower or some other unblockable core. By turn 4, their chances of not being deflected/blocked is about 33.18%, meaning that about 2/3 of the time they will be blocked/deflected. As I stated before, from my experience, a single block or deflect will end up with me winning.

Supposingly I'm using a generally correct scenario (I actually think I underestimated on the block/deflect chances because you'll definitely have more than a 30 dex advantage even if you aren't a focus/tank build. Not sure about a 48 tech advantage, especially after they malf you, but I'm less concerned with that simply because deflection chances scale more slowly. You should still have a 20%+ deflection chance with the deflection core after being malfed), you should win by mere luck about 2/3 of the time against them, and I actually beat them more often than that.




Melbourne -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 23:15:12)

As a level 32 bloodmage I can honestly say that I haven't lost to one of these support strength TM with my new build. Whenever I face them I think of a free win because if how simple it is to beat them. As exploding penguin stated they are quick but definitely not OP.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/2/2013 23:26:56)

@xendran: Agreed about the fact that azrael's will is, when compared, superior. Azrael's will wouldn't get nearly as much attention as it does now if there were better and more gun cores. Since generator is an amazing core, armored roots is pretty weak compared to it, but if generator were nonexistent, then armored roots would seem like a god.



Xendran -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/3/2013 0:47:54)

Yeah, this is why i now say we should get new gun cores that are as good as azrael instead of nerfing azrael.
other core ideas were these:
Maul: Forced Rage
Double Rage gain when forced to strike
Claws: Riposte
Pierce 15% of defence and resistance on forced strike
Staff: Counter Assimilate
Forced strikes are replaced by assimilate, if assimilate is available for use
Sword: Precise Counter
Forced strikes cannot be blocked



Angels Holocaust -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/3/2013 1:11:51)

Are you guys suggesting that we should change something after the consumer has purchased it? Xendran's idea makes sense or to be honest we shouldn't do anything because it's your fault that you missed out on such an amazing gun. No need for anyone to be punished.



frogbones -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/3/2013 1:15:37)

Some of us didn't "miss out." We simply realized early on that it was OP and didn't need a $50 crutch to win.



Xendran -> RE: Why is azrael's will such a problem? (5/3/2013 1:16:57)

It really does feel like a crutch in most battles that i see it used in.



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