Unexploitive Rage (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [EpicDuel] >> EpicDuel Balance



Message

Stabilis -> Unexploitive Rage (5/2/2013 17:47:08)

Rage is abused when players maximize their weapons like the Sidearm for example, they do this to boost their weapons which have infinite uses and no cost. When fighting someone who is defence-heavy, they use their Primary and such not to deal damage, but to pile rage. Players that are pro-defence are helpless because their damage is minimal and so is their rage. Their defences mean nothing since armour-ignoring rage allows any attack to work without faltering. What is worse is that the "tanks" themselves lack features that counter players that abuse rage because tanks when they are not Focus are low damage weapon-wise, low damage means equal or less weapon damage than their enemies, but also that they likely gain rage 2 or more times slower.

I agree that rage should be what stops the players who can overwhelm their foes while being impervious, but not what it is today, which is an abused feature in PVP from nothing but spamming attacks.

The change is to calculate rage each turn not by damage dealt or damage taken, but simply by adding Defense and Resistance then dividing the sum by 2 to give you their armour rating. The armour rating determines how many stats were allotted into the defensive stats. This is a positive change because players can be free to choose any skill each turn without having to spam attacks.



ValkyrieKnight -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/2/2013 21:55:36)

What is this travesty? Correct me if I'm wrong but are people really complaining about people raging quickly by spamming low accuracy primary attacks in order to bypass tanky opponents? No, just no.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/2/2013 22:31:42)

right now rage does not favor defense.

by that i mean, that rage is mostly gained through attacking.
this is why offensive builds thrive. they spend no time on the defense and just go full attack, this makes them rage faster.

making rage be on damage dealt seems like a good idea.

quote:

What is this travesty? Correct me if I'm wrong but are people really complaining about people raging quickly by spamming low accuracy primary attacks in order to bypass tanky opponents? No, just no.

yes, just yes.
when i was caster tech mage i would purposely use primary/gun in order to get low damage (almost always hits below 10) and rage faster.



Xendran -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/2/2013 22:39:30)

Rage was implemented because def/res were so much better than other stats and you NEEDED rage to deal damage to tanks.
Rage wouldn't even have to exist if stats were balanced, and doesn't need to exist today either.



Stabilis -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/2/2013 22:52:16)

Valkyrie,

There is a difference between complaining and critically assessing something wonky that allows (mostly for Strength) a faster way to hit harder with rage. Because it can be abused. No one is complaining about this, and, "Focus" is the "issue". I mean, you can keep pointing at 1 skill and accuse an entire class if that is how you handle universal balance, but others like myself analyze the "real" problems.



ValkyrieKnight -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/5/2013 17:55:03)

@ Void and Gold

No one tells players to go full defense which is what many people who complain about rage do. There has never been a downside to being a tank besides rage, this is similar to no people go full strength or like myself, high hp. When I go full hp, I run the risk of being heal looped or roboted down or, people blocking my rage. People who go full tank are not only impervious to most non rage attacks but their block rates are high and their special attacks such as surgical strike / robot damage become really powerful so without rage there'd be no reason NOT to go full tank, which even in Omega most people do anyway.

Every type of build has weakness, some more than others however, if you're going to go full tank to try to robot people or heal loop people expect them to rage the mess out of you as I myself have to expect to be blocked more times than not for putting so many points into str/hp.

The only reason why focus is cried so much about in this game is because full tanks can abuse the mess out of it via high tech ( high resistance ) skill effectiveness, and super high robot damage. Most players I fight mainly tech mages and tact mercs simply heal loop and infernal robot me down.



Necromantres -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/5/2013 17:58:29)

not supported



Xendran -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/5/2013 18:10:02)

Void, you will literally get no constructive or rational posts in this section, so don't put too much effort into the thread.



Stabilis -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/5/2013 18:23:29)

quote:

No one tells players to go full defense which is what many people who complain about rage do.


Full defence should be subject to rage attacks yes, and the most frequently. I have no problem with this, no one should, but the way rage is gained is exploitative and cripples defence builds because it can be controlled by the players! Think about it, how is rage most highly obtained? From attacking, right? Well, say 2 players that were fighting had equal health, 1 had maximum attacking abilities and the other maximum defensive abilities. 1 guy's damage is equal in number to the other guy's Defense for example. Each turn each player would damage for about 3 damage (but because of the difference in weapon damage and armour defence the player with maximum defence should be hitting higher than the other guy). But because rage is calculated by damage dealt to a defence, the maximum offence player should gain rage X times more often than the player with maximum defence by the difference in each of their defences. To be almost exact, the offence player will gain rage equal to how many times their defence can divide into the other player's defence... so if the offence guy had 10 Resistance and the defence guy had 50 Resistance, the offence guy will gain rage about 5 times faster than the defence guy.

quote:

There has never been a downside to being a tank besides rage-


But of course there is! If I put ALL of my points into Dexterity, Technology, or both without having any Focus, I lack health, I lack energy, I lack damage (versus another "tank" with more health than me... I would lose [each of use would essentially damage for 3 damage each turn]), but most importantly, I will be frequently hit by rage which renders nearly half of my defences useless. Where is the battle mechanic that does the opposite?

quote:

The only reason why focus is cried so much about in this game is because full tanks can abuse the mess out of it via high tech ( high resistance ) skill effectiveness, and super high robot damage. Most players I fight mainly tech mages and tact mercs simply heal loop and infernal robot me down.


When I put quotation marks around "Focus" and "issue" I was expressively curling my 2 fingers on each hand in a sarcastic gesture if you did not notice. Ü I myself do not measure Focus to be overpowered before the nerf, but the Infernal Android was out of our natural boundaries. Since Focus damage is as potent as weapon damage now I do not mind even less.

EDIT: Aw -censored-, I am too late Xendran. [:o]



ValkyrieKnight -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/5/2013 18:43:47)

@ Void

quote:

Full defence should be subject to rage attacks yes, and the most frequently. I have no problem with this, no one should, but the way rage is gained is exploitative and cripples defence builds because it can be controlled by the players! Think about it, how is rage most highly obtained? From attacking, right? Well, say 2 players that were fighting had equal health, 1 had maximum attacking abilities and the other maximum defensive abilities. 1 guy's damage is equal in number to the other guy's Defense for example. Each turn each player would damage for about 3 damage (but because of the difference in weapon damage and armour defence the player with maximum defence should be hitting higher than the other guy). But because rage is calculated by damage dealt to a defence, the maximum offence player should gain rage X times more often than the player with maximum defence by the difference in each of their defences. To be almost exact, the offence player will gain rage equal to how many times their defence can divide into the other player's defence... so if the offence guy had 10 Resistance and the defence guy had 50 Resistance, the offence guy will gain rage about 5 times faster than the defence guy.


This can be solved with a formula change that people have been advocating for for a long time now. Rage gain should base rage gain by the % of health taken from the other player and not by how much defense they have. Meaning even if the strong player can slice through the defensive player's defense that should reduce the amount of rage the strong player is getting because they're doing such above average damage.

quote:

But of course there is! If I put ALL of my points into Dexterity, Technology, or both without having any Focus, I lack health, I lack energy, I lack damage (versus another "tank" with more health than me... I would lose [each of use would essentially damage for 3 damage each turn]), but most importantly, I will be frequently hit by rage which renders nearly half of my defences useless. Where is the battle mechanic that does the opposite?


That's the price you pay for not balancing your stats, I don't see your point here. Most tanks at least go 5 focus which still allows for huge robot / healing abuse opportunities.

quote:


When I put quotation marks around "Focus" and "issue" I was expressively curling my 2 fingers on each hand in a sarcastic gesture if you did not notice. Ü I myself do not measure Focus to be overpowered before the nerf, but the Infernal Android was out of our natural boundaries. Since Focus damage is as potent as weapon damage now I do not mind even less.


Personally for me I think Technology should not increase robot damage, too much comes out of Technology already, removing robot damage increases with Technology would quickly remove abuse and allow robots to serve as a 4th method of doing damage and primarily being a assist.



Stabilis -> RE: Unexploitive Rage (5/5/2013 19:17:40)

quote:

This can be solved with a formula change that people have been advocating for for a long time now. Rage gain should base rage gain by the % of health taken from the other player and not by how much defense they have. Meaning even if the strong player can slice through the defensive player's defense that should reduce the amount of rage the strong player is getting because they're doing such above average damage.


I am not sure where or who the advocating of this is for, but even so this is not any less flawed than what is being proposed here. Health is separate from damage calculations, so when I increase health, the % of total health reduced is proportionally lower, and because of this rage calculation... players that stat their health would be punished? I thought this (rage) was to negate the cases where damage is reduced to minimums(?). Rage is for when "tanks" reduce damage to 3. And why does this require attacking? Why can this not simply calculate when a player is negating damage? The problem is simple. Calculating % of total health reduced is complicated when you have to compensate for the victims that have high health.

quote:

That's the price you pay for not balancing your stats, I don't see your point here. Most tanks at least go 5 focus which still allows for huge robot / healing abuse opportunities.


Maybe we are not seeing the point. Yet there should not be a "price" for not balancing stats! Why? For what reason does a build that exploits Technology need to be crippled while a "balanced" build that exploits Focus is allowed an alibi? That is not fair. When I say fair the intention is balance.

We could use generalized statistics like the majority rule by saying "most builds do this/ most tanks at least go 5 Focus" but I am not a social statistics person nor could I be interested in that. I, and we should be scientists here and base our understanding on structured facts gained by evidence. For example, poison damage ignores armour and rage is not applied. That is a fact. If you want evidence I can make a video if you desire. Separate issue though.

quote:

Pesonally for me I think Technology should not increase robot damage, too much comes out of Technology already, removing robot damage increases with Technology would quickly remove abuse and allow robots to serve as a 4th method of doing damage and being a assist.


Personally I think Goony is green in real life but what do I know about Goony if I have not seen him in real life? Focus was implemented as an extension into EpicDuel. It was not a fundamental concept, it is new. If anything we players did not NEED a Focus to begin with, but Titan needed a stat to improve Robot damage by, and created 1. Focus is amalgamated in 4 different stats. It is as powerful as the 4 that make it up. If Support is buffed, Focus is buffed. If Dexterity is buffed, Focus is buffed. This is an incredibly unstable stat in balance because of this.

So if you ask me, I personally have no preference for Focus, if you gave me the opportunity, I would gladly make it a basic stat or remove it from EpicDuel. There is nothing for me to discuss fancying this extra "stat" because I do not condone it.



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition
0.09375