RE: Glass Cannon Mage Fix (Full Version)

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Melbourne -> RE: Glass Cannon Mage Fix (5/6/2013 23:20:42)

quote:

I suggested it before and I will suggest it again remove going first from support and make it work in a way where it doesn't depend on any stat.


Oh please let this be implemented. This would fix so much.



Baron Dante -> RE: Glass Cannon Mage Fix (5/6/2013 23:46:58)

quote:

I suggested it before and I will suggest it again remove going first from support and make it work in a way where it doesn't depend on any stat.


It's funny how the playerbase keeps foaming about luck being too prominent (It isn't), yet they want to increase it even further.

Right now, while going first still relies on chance to a degree, it's not random. You can affect it. Just like more or less any other luck-reliant thing in the game.

But on that note, what build that relies on Support even is OP? It certainly ain't Supp/Str Tech Mages with or without Azrael. The build is still absolutely horrendous and littered with easy counters.



Mother1 -> RE: Glass Cannon Mage Fix (5/7/2013 0:00:37)

@ baron

I have beaten this build however the ratio of wins to loses to this build favors the loses even with counters Especially when they get luck with a deflection or block with horrendous defenses. However when I went first against this build (which is rare due to them always having more support than me) I always clobbered them.

I have used the yeti with the combo of a block core which words sometimes for me but not a good deal, I also used the deflection core which helped sometimes as well but not as often as I'd like.

And I even used the sacrificial shield with Azreal's will/Torment weapon holders to make use the aux at 85% damage which also has helped me a few times make it to turn 4 and twice win.

However it is as I said this build depends on going first since it is an offensive build that doesn't play well defensively. If you can get them on the defense they are done in, which can work well for some builds but not so well for others.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Glass Cannon Mage Fix (5/7/2013 0:05:10)

quote:

But on that note, what build that relies on Support even is OP? It certainly ain't Supp/Str Tech Mages with or without Azrael.

theres merc build with 172 support.
you pretty much go first every time with that support.
aux, artillery, rage w/e. (berzerker or gun, w/e will get the kill)

so you really only had 2 moves in that span.

however im not sure you would call that "OP"



Baron Dante -> RE: Glass Cannon Mage Fix (5/7/2013 4:29:21)

Mother: I'm pretty sure I don't need to say this, but not all builds are supposed to win against all builds. Not even if they are actually competent builds. If a build could win against any competent build with decent winrate (This is notably different from having a high winrate in itself. Since some builds are massively more popular, a build that deal well against those can do well, even if it fails against many other, less popular builds miserably)

The fact is that there are very many counters for these builds. Yes, they can win against pretty much anything with luck, but that's the point of luck. It prevents battles from being just a constant. But realistically speaking, most of the battles for them end at something like Malf getting blocked at the very start, along with a bit more bad luck. The builds rely on a relatively high amount of luck (Which is helped by Support getting more Crits), and that makes them pretty horrendous to boot.

goldslayer: Yeah, those are pretty bad. I run a slightly lower Support than most to make sure I do start out against pretty much anything but other Support builds. Those though tend to walk over me. In theory, the same strategies work against those. But, IMO, those are simply stronger than Tech Mage variants. Like you, I'm not sure if that warrants being OP as they are still doable.


Since I don't really care for any kind of winrate, and focus on getting whatever I want done (Be it spores or whatever), I've been using a supp/str tech mage lately. It has some good things to it. It has very little leniency, so I don't need to focus much, allowing multitasking. Doing this does lower my winrate by maybe 10% since there are builds with very low Resistance that you wouldn't want to Malf first against and whatnot.

But anyways. Yeti, high HP, higher Supp, Azrael (:P), high str.... I'm sure I'm forgetting some other variants. Shields work if they don't run Azrael Aux, and debuff bots can help... one thing I just don't understand is why do people try to drain energy off these builds? Outside the potential unblockability that is, but that doesn't always apply. These don't really rely on Energy (Str/Supp's don't)



Mother1 -> RE: Glass Cannon Mage Fix (5/7/2013 10:15:21)

quote:

I'm pretty sure I don't need to say this, but not all builds are supposed to win against all builds. Not even if they are actually competent builds.


I accept this Baron, and I know my build can't beat them without some sort of luck. However the people who keep making these kinds of threads don't. Even when proven that this build has a terrible win rate the problem for them is that it is something that beat their build and they see them more then ever (Meaning they keep losing since they keep showing up.) They want it gone because it is what keeps giving them loses which takes away from their fun.

OP asked me for a solution as many others asked me and they are "I won't except this build isn't OP because it is even with 50/50 win rate" So I told them what helped me with my current build which was take away going first for them majority of the time.




doomkiller98 -> RE: Glass Cannon Mage Fix (5/7/2013 11:23:47)

quote:

I accept this Baron, and I know my build can't beat them without some sort of luck. However the people who keep making these kinds of threads don't. Even when proven that this build has a terrible win rate the problem for them is that it is something that beat their build and they see them more then ever (Meaning they keep losing since they keep showing up.) They want it gone because it is what keeps giving them loses which takes away from their fun.

OP asked me for a solution as many others asked me and they are "I won't except this build isn't OP because it is even with 50/50 win rate" So I told them what helped me with my current build which was take away going first for them majority of the time.


Mother You do know that I have no trouble against this build right? You wanna know why? Cause I AM a Str/Supp mage (Without Azrael weapons) and Tbh I think That it is a little bit "cheap," But yes, giving going first a new formula and have it not even have any stats decide who goes first would be the best solution here. Oh and the reason why I am a str/supp mage is because I am good at being one, Thats why i made this thread. they're a bit cheap. EDIT: Only when they go first that is.

quote:

theres merc build with 172 support.
you pretty much go first every time with that support.
aux, artillery, rage w/e. (berzerker or gun, w/e will get the kill


Oh god don't even get me going on this. Always disliked Merc support builds... And now they also have Adrenaline... its like its there only choice nowadays.



doomkiller98 -> RE: Glass Cannon Mage Fix (5/7/2013 11:59:53)

Requesting lock as i have realized that strength/support mage is not OP but is just "over used"

Lock requested. ~Mecha



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