Combat Theory (Full Version)

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Legendium -> Combat Theory (5/22/2013 15:52:58)

Since combat is a prominent part of RPs, I decided I'd make a thread for people to discuss the actual effectiveness of armors, weapons and fighting styles. This thread was inspired by a discussion in the "What makes an Interesting Character" Thread. And I mean, really detailed stuff. Like the effectiveness of certain types of weapons against certain types of armors/weapons, the specific differences between weapons that seem almost identical, swordsmanship terms that could come in useful when using sword wielders in RPs. My hope is that this thread becomes a thread full of knowledge that we can reference when creating fighting scenes.

Discuss!



Lord Darkblade -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 16:01:08)

Should we include how some weapons are used today? In the event that it is a more modern day RP?



Legendium -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 16:02:15)

I suppose that would work. I specialize in medieval knight weaponry, so I could sure use a bit of info on modern weapons.



Lord Darkblade -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 16:20:00)

Well, I mean like how swords are treated nowadays and modern weapons, as they are important too.'

As in how swords are mostly decoration now, unless you have an actual live sword(non dull/display sword) that someone would uses for spars with expert swordsmen, although that is rare, unless at some renaissance fair as a display of how knights fought back then, or the art of fencing.

I know a bit on modern weaponry, mostly how to actually shoot a gun/a little bit of how to treat a wound, but not a whole lot.



Ted Zlammy -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 16:27:31)

I've honestly been iffy on about how a fight in a modern setting with guns and such would work out. Sure there's cover, bullet proof vests and what not, but a single shot can totally take out someone in an instant. Not too sure how you could have a duel in that setting that would last longer than a few short posts.



Lord Darkblade -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 16:53:44)

Just have it be more, interaction based than combat based.



TJByrum -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 17:15:07)

@Ted: Shoot-out combat scenes would work a lot better if it were two squads fighting each other. In that sense, tactical maneuvers and equipment would come into play.

@Legendium: You've peaked my interest. Other than padded leather and steel plate, and chainmail, what other types of armor would medieval soldiers have worn?

Knives, daggers, shortswords, swords, longswords, cutlasses, katanas... what's your favorite blade? Also, how effective is a shield VS missiles and blade/blunt weapons, both wood and metal? Also, how much heavier is a steel shield VS a wooden shield, and would you consider steel shields are more practical than wooden shields?

I have read kite shields replaced round shields to cover the legs against arrow, but kite shields would seem quite cumbersome in close-range, so I assume round shields were superior in close combat?

Also Legendium:

quote:

I've been reading about realistic combat writing, and I have to say, making an RP where weapon finesse and realistic character design was a must would be fun. As in, not just "My character is proficient with a greatsword," but a lot of information about how they use their greatsword in which kinds of fights, as in when the opponent is mounted, when they are using polearms, and etcetera. So when I say an RP that functions on huge amounts of detail, I mean, I want to know every last little thing about this person.


If you've a link, then link me up. Also, this idea of yours is really cool and I'd like us to expand on that and include it in this discussion.



Lord Darkblade -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 17:20:41)

I like longswords and daggers together as the dagger could be used as both a weapon and a defensive add-on/katanas and their sister(brother?) blade which I forget the name of. Well, some shields were designed to protect from arrows, others, like the those small round shields, are designed for quick rapid blocks.



TJByrum -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 17:32:59)

@Darkblade: You mean a Dai-Katana Darkblade? I am greatly interested in Japanese weaponry, or all Asian weaponry for that matter. Escpeially the Naginata. But katanas, shurikens, tantos, and bo-staffs have really piqued my interest as of lately. I've expressed interest in creating a Japanese-themed roleplay. It was called Meiyo Senshi and focused on an order of isolated warriors who trained atop Yama Mountain, but they are forced to leave the mountain and deal with other threats. The three professions were Samurai (armor and long weapons), Ninja (stealth and agility and small weapons), and Monk (fists and minor elemental magic).

Here are some Wikipedia pages on Japanese weaponry:
Samurai weapons and equipment
Spears of Japan
Staff weapons of Japan
Japanese swords
Pole weapons of Japan

Anyone have anything else they'd like to share?



Lord Darkblade -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 17:35:44)

Yeah, I like dual wield weapons, even if it is harder to hit with them. Also, I like Japanese weaponry as they were mostly designed for speed when attacking.



TJByrum -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 17:38:52)

@Darkblade: Check out my previous post, I updated it with links if interested.

I think dual-wielding katanas would be pretty awesome, but probably hard to fight with. I find Japanese weaponry, combat, and culture very elegant and I've only barely scratched the surface of it. I'd like to read more about Japanese culture.

In real life I fought a horde of vines and polk salad and other vegetation with dual-wielding machetes. Needless to say, they were not bothering my fence any longer.

EDIT: Also, I have shot pistols, and I swear no matter how long you concentrate it is very hard to shoot a pistol accurate! I have also shot .22's dozens of times as practice, and they are much easier to hit with. Spears, if thrown right, are also somewhat hard, but I got good at throwing homemade spears at plywood. I once threw it about 20 or so yards and punctured the plywood around the center (not dead-on, but close).



Eukara Vox -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 20:02:13)

Concentration has nothing to do with shooting a pistol. Anyone who spends quality time practicing can shoot with accuracy. And I mean real practicing, not this "show up at a range and shoot until your arm drops" stuff. If you train and know your pistol, accuracy isn't going to be hard. And that goes for any type of fire arm.

Picking up a pistol and shooting it is going to lead to mistakes, misjudgments and false sense of accomplishment. Firearms are serious things. So, if someone is going to use one, they are going to learn and practice until they know what they are doing. No serious weapon artist would just pick up a gun, pistol, .44, semi-automatic, rifle, etc, without knowing what they are doing. Those those can't shoot, die. Those that think they know what they are doing, die faster.



TJByrum -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 20:11:28)

I've been shooting guns since I got a BB gun when I was just a little boy, and have shot several guns in my lifetime. I'm sure if you carried a pistol around and knew it front to back, even shot it often you'd be good with it and be accurate with it. But this pistol I am talking about was new and we was shooting it at a target in the woods to check it out. In other words, the rifles I have shot were much more accurate than this pistol I have shot.



Eukara Vox -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 20:26:16)

That's just it. You are using a poor example to talk about guns in combat theory. Anyone who is going to use a fire-arm in battle will only use something they have trained on and know front to back. Using an example of a weapon you did not know is bad form. Using that as an example is misleading to those who are having a serious discussion. You should have clarified that from the beginning.

And I severely question why you would just go into the woods to try out a gun. And people wonder why we need such tight control on guns... there are ranges for that you know.

*grumbles about people's behaviour with guns*



TJByrum -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 20:40:59)

I wasn't trying to give an example of fire-arm use, just like I wasn't trying to describe how effective a spear was by throwing a barely-straight stick at a piece of rotten plywood. I get where you're coming from, but it's just a matter of mislead purpose. Sorry for any confusion.

Also, it is not uncommon for people to go into the woods and shoot 12 gauges, .22's,... actually it's not uncommon for people around here to shoot anything in the woods. My brothers owns a Russian rifle used in WWII, and with certain ammunition it is illegal, but we've shot it in the woods before. If it means anything, I live in South Carolina. The part I live in is a very rural, very small community where a large majority of the people own lots of guns, all sorts of guns. I hate to use this word, but the simplest way to say it is I live in a town full of 'rednecks'. Again, sorry for that word, but it gets the point across.



Starstruck -> RE: Combat Theory (5/22/2013 22:48:12)

I have known war.

I have looked death in the face.

I have stuck my hands in up to the elbow and mucked around with a knife until I got all the stuff I didn't want to eat out of the corpse.

There's a lot I've done, and a lot I'd still love to do.

Stop posting with capslock on. It's not cool, contrary to popular belief. It's spam. Next time, it will be a warning.

Eukara Vox
AE Forum Administration



Arthur -> RE: Combat Theory (5/23/2013 3:04:14)

Hmm... if it's about swords of any kind, I am all for the traditional Rapier. These lades are stylish, sleek and they are easily maneouvrable. For someone whose characters are sneaky and quick, I would prefer for a rapier as the primary weapon of engagement. I am a bit of an aggressive stab and cut based fighter and the way I see it, a rapier is just the perfect weapon for both. Plus, it does not compromise on your speed.

For smaller blades, dual foot long daggers as are Marc Aldriem's trademark weapons will always be my first choice. Quick to draw and quick to dispose of, the dual daggers are versatile weapons with just one downside, the range. However, the ability to throw them at close to mid ranges more than makes up for this handicap. Additionally, a thief or a blade fighter must know ways to sneak attack and what better weapons than daggers.

Fire-arms were never my forte, at least not modern handguns of any type. Aerell Aldriem however, does use a gunblade that's a longsword attached to the back of sniper rifle. That's as far as I've gone until now and I hope that with the liberty that we have now, I'll be able to experiment more with handguns and such.

One other experiment that I remember was with Night Aldriem, he used dual chakrams which were made out of solidified flames. Unfortunately, I never got to use Night in a combat situation so it'll forever be a mystery to me, the use of chakrams that is.



Legendium -> RE: Combat Theory (5/23/2013 5:04:51)

quote:

If you've a link, then link me up. Also, this idea of yours is really cool and I'd like us to expand on that and include it in this discussion.


Swords vs. Everything

It's a useful writing class from a person who also RPs in similar RP style. While the main focus of the writing class is on swords, the fact that it is called Swords vs Everything gives a good insight on quite a lot of weapon types. The thing about swords is that they're all-round good in a fight. Well, the principle of them is. Naturally, when facing a mounted opponent with a spear, a longsword would be preferable to a shortsword, because of the danger of getting trampled or gutted by the spear.

quote:

Other than padded leather and steel plate, and chainmail, what other types of armor would medieval soldiers have worn?


Those are all very broad terms. They're more like materials than actual armor types. Naturally, when it comes to armor, the material is what makes most of the difference, but certain armor styles, alloys, mixes of armor pieces, etc. make a big deal of difference between life and death as well. Most armors aren't all completely steel or iron (or bronze, for that matter), unless you're a knight. Most people would wear plate in certain places, and boiled leather in others, but normally this was due to lack of funds (any sane person going into a fight would want full protection). Soldiers would almost never wear full plate due to low wages and/or uniform. Most uniformed footsoldiers only wore Gambesons, Brigandines or Mail. But for the most part, it depends on the time to find out what soldiers used as armor. For instance, when the Roman empire fell, a large amount of the infrastructure used to transport plate armor nigh disappeared, so chainmail became the more common form of armor.

quote:

Knives, daggers, shortswords, swords, longswords, cutlasses, katanas... what's your favorite blade? Also, how effective is a shield VS missiles and blade/blunt weapons, both wood and metal? Also, how much heavier is a steel shield VS a wooden shield, and would you consider steel shields are more practical than wooden shields


My favorite blade is probably a longsword. Couple that with a dagger and a spear, and you're all set to fight almost everything coming your way. As for the effectiveness of the shield vs projectiles, I'd say it depends on the size of the shield or your ability to judge where an arrow is going to land. It is very hard to block an arrow with a buckler, but a larger shield can make the job easier. If the arrows are large and strong enough, they can sometimes pierce wood, but that's only ever an arrow coming from a very powerful bow or a crossbow bolt. As for blunt weapons, a shield can help, but not much. A blow from a warhammer to any kind of shield can break your hand, and a warhammer can break a wooden shield to pieces.

Steel is far more practical than wood, unless we're talking about cost efficiency. A wooden shield that is as practical as a steel shield has to be pretty thick and pretty heavy. Unless you add iron or steel bolts to it. That'll raise its effectiveness.

Nix this. Steel shields are far heavier than wooden shields. The most effective shield designs use wood reinforced with steel. I didn't do my research. Shame on me. (Although, smaller shields made of steel are better than small shields made of wood. I think.)

quote:

I have read kite shields replaced round shields to cover the legs against arrow, but kite shields would seem quite cumbersome in close-range, so I assume round shields were superior in close combat?


Kite shields are better in large scale fights due to the amount of protection they give. But they are quite cumbersome, which is why it's not a good idea to use one in a duel. Round shields and bucklers are very useful in a fight with only one target. But round shields aren't necessarily any lighter. As the name suggests, they are simply shields that are round. They can come in any size, although the general definition of kite shields implies that they are bigger than some would think. Although, come to think of it, you're probably referring to tower shields, which are only really good in formation due to their absolute clumsiness. But they offer great protection.

When it comes to Japanese weapons and guns, I know very little. I dislike guns quite a lot, mainly because my old neighbor used to use me as a practice target for his plastic BBs. Not fun.



TJByrum -> RE: Combat Theory (5/23/2013 10:31:28)

Thanks for the link Legendium, I'll check it out.

I made a character, Zimon, who I've referred to before, who was equipped with a retractable spear, a shield, and two shortswords. I tried to make his arsenal somewhat varied.



Sir Nicholas -> RE: Combat Theory (5/23/2013 13:48:03)

I agree with Legend - my favorite sword is the longsword. Weapon of choice for any armored knight, it combines versatility with the speed, precision, use and striking power of a well made blade. And though the katana is a mighty weapon - it is designed for speed and technique, unlike the western blade - which is designed for weight and power: Suited for a competition of strength.

Also, there's the fact that my main character is a fully trained knight - with which comes the instinct, the experience and the skill and talent necessary to know how to counter his opponent's fighting style. For example - against a heavily armored adversary, he'll use his mace. Against one who fights blade-to-blade, he'll rely on agility and cunning rather than brute strength. Of course, if that fails - he can always fall back on the fact he has an unbreakable weapon. Plus, it doesn't hurt he himself has the natural toughness necessary to take punishment and keep getting back up.

Plus, I've created a few other characters - one of whom has a weapon I have a liking for: The Halberd. Very versatile, either offensively or defensively. It also was a popular choice for fighters in the Renaissance because it was cheap, easy to produce - and its superior range made it ideal as an anti-cavalry weapon. And have you ever tried taking on an opponent armed with something like that with a short range weapon? It ain't easy.

But again, there's also the character's mindset as they enter the fight. You want them to have clear morals and convictions; knowing exactly why they're fighting, and how they intend to approach it. Then have their opponent counter - and so on and so forth.

My character's natural enemy - and his greatest rival was Vegalok: His Evil Counterpart. They were in many ways, natural opposites of each other. Both rely on long, indestructible weapons and heavy maces to get the job done - and in a really tough fight, they could both use either their brains, or their brawn - or even both.

When fighting together, they handily kicked butt. Against each other, provided they had sufficient energy - they could very well end up in an endless stalemate.

In terms of fighting skill - about equal.
Strength - My boy.
Speed - Vegalok.
Magical Ability - About the same, though Vegalok slightly holds the advantage.
Intelligence - Same.
Cunning - Vegalok.
Endurance - Mine.
Weapons - Equal.

Pragmatism - Same, though Vegalok disdains some of the more "honorable" methods. He'd kick below the belt, throw sand in the eyes, ambush, throw rabbit punches, backstab and throw blades without compunction. It's only if pressed does my boy stop fighting "fair".

Speaking of which, there is no such thing as a truly "fair fight". There never has been. One side or the other will always hold some advantage. The term "fair fight" in fact, was simply created because most are sore losers and try to create excuses.



Legendium -> RE: Combat Theory (5/26/2013 13:16:24)

quote:

I think dual-wielding katanas would be pretty awesome, but probably hard to fight with.


Was checking through the Bio Workshops and found this comment from an AK:

quote:

also, katanas as a general rule are a two-handed weapon, and the dual-wielding version uses a slightly different set of swords, but then this is fantasy and that's a mistake common to many people. Just pointing it out for clarification's sake.



Lord Darkblade -> RE: Combat Theory (5/26/2013 14:53:18)

Daishō, that is the name of the "set" that katanas are in, katanas are the long or "dai" part of it, and the wakizashi is the short or shō part of it. The word daishō comes from the words daitō meaning longsword, and shōtō meaning short sword.

Wikipedia is so useful when you have a rough idea, but you don't know it all.



Zephyrial -> RE: Combat Theory (5/26/2013 15:17:15)

I've never given all that much thought to weapons before; I've usually (through unconscious bias) opted for magic and ranged weapons for ease of concept. Looking into it is interesting, though, and the link from the link that Legendinium linked is excellent.

I'll definitely give it a lot more thought when deciding on my Tempest characters' future weaponry.



demonhunter -> RE: Combat Theory (5/27/2013 23:23:59)

The majority of my characters are sword-wielders, running the gamut from shortsword-and-buckler, to twin longswords, to the good old two-handed greatsword. I don't claim to be particularly knowledgeable about them, however; most of what I know comes from video games and the two decorative blades I keep in my room (Exotath and an un-named shortsword)



black knight 1234567 -> RE: Combat Theory (5/28/2013 11:11:33)

I want to discuss hand to hand fight scenes, myself.
What tips do you guys have? for me, I study movie fight scenes, and try to write them myself. It helps tremendously.



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