merc stun skill (Full Version)

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toopygoo -> merc stun skill (5/27/2013 20:20:21)

its come to my attention that mercenaries are the only two classes with blockable stuns. here is my preposition:
either make other stuns deflectable and thus make their ability invalid (they can STILL do more damage than on a block) or make a stun attack unblockable, or keep the block, but make the ability unblockable, thus even if you are blocked, you can still stun.

personally i dotn care about the additional 15% damage.

any opinions or counter-opinions?



Mother1 -> RE: merc stun skill (5/27/2013 20:56:49)

Actually Mercenary is the only class with a blockable stun skill since tactical merc has stun grenade which is unblockable.



toopygoo -> RE: merc stun skill (5/27/2013 20:59:19)

point taken, i forgot that detail. anyway, any fix?



Mother1 -> RE: merc stun skill (5/27/2013 21:06:47)

Make it so the move can still has the chance to stun even when blocked. I mean since every other stun more, or core that adds a stun effect is either unblockable or can be deflected (the stun gun ans stun aux cores) what harm would it do to make maul which is the only move in that game that is blockable with a stun effect go through anyway?

It is a single small buff to the merc class and it doesn't affect the others since no other move is like this.



toopygoo -> RE: merc stun skill (5/27/2013 21:10:24)

ok cool. i like that suggestion too, so i support that as well. i figure if enough people agree on one single fix, dev's are more likely to approve as well.



NDB -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 0:31:09)

To mother1's suggestion, yes. To yours, no because Maul deals much more damage than the other skills. And Maul ignores 20% defenses and does not deal 15% damage...



Bloodpact -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 2:39:27)

Yes to Mother's idea, because as stated maul's dmg potential is much greater then all
its predecessors, but the stun effect shouldn't be blocked it's importante!



kosmo -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 4:09:37)

Maul is the best stun skill, way much better than evry other one and it also have a different use.You can use maul with many different builds since it s always better than a strike and stun % can be increased more than other stuns, wich you usuallly only use to stun with a low energy cost and low damage.It s simply different and I dont think it needs any buff.



Ranloth -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 5:42:40)

kosmo got it in one, once again. It has higher % to stun as you train it and ignores 20% of defences which makes its damage higher than that of Grenades. It compensates for the fact it's blockable, by far. Even if blocked, it'll ignore 20% of defences at least which can always make you deal more than 3 damage.



toopygoo -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 7:48:55)

keep in mind, its "higher" stun chance you speak of, is 0, if you're blocked...
its not any better because those other skills are dependent on technology or dexterity, while this one is based one strength, which most of you have said is a dead build, in other forums.
we also do not have the oppertunity to increase the damage our stun skill does, but some others can. for example: overload can be helped by using malfunciton first, and stun grenade, by smoke screen.

the skills itself is much in balance if not weakened, and im not asking for a big thing. allow the POINT of the skill to get through if not the damage. they did this for assimilation, they do this on poison, they do this on all debuffs.
block the attack, still can get stunned.



Ranloth -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 8:17:34)

And who uses Smoke followed by Grenade or Malf and Overload? These cost points to be efficient. Yes, I know the higher chance to stun is 0% if you get blocked but it can be much higher if not blocked + deals higher damage because it's dependant on Strength which does match Overload/Grenade in damage with the same amount of stats) & ignores defence on top of it which boosts its damage.

If you were to get stunned on block, it'd not make sense or whatsoever. Not only that, Maul would get too much of a boost since it could stun almost 1/2 of the time on its use + ignore defence. The defence ignore and higher chance to stun is the compensation for the fact it's blockable. The skill wasn't ever an issue, and shouldn't be. If you want a stun on block, the logic will be even worse here (I blocked/avoided an attack and still get stunned.. what), and you will have to make it a copy of Overload/Grenade. Maul is unique in its own way. Its focus is damage and Stun, since Mercenaries are an offensive class.



Kiing of Frost -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 12:47:33)

At the moment I use a Strength Five Focus Build, and it has a high 80s percent range... now i add i pretty much have endless energy, Strength is far from dead, if you know how to play it.
Stay Frosty



Bloodpact -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 12:57:54)

Str isn't dead per say, just not mainstream anymore.
WHICH I DIG!



toopygoo -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 16:41:10)

ok first of all, i never said strength builds are dead. i said you guys have said it, meaning i have seen you post on other forums threads tha its been kept really in check, if not some complaints about it being done too well.
second, you guys are arguing this from a level 35 position, as far as i can see, you all have reached the maximum level and thus have more or equal stat points as anyone else.
at 33 this is not the same, you have the minor disadvantage every battle of extra damage from you guys, higher defense by you guys, more health, more base energy, etc etc. and not all of you have higher defense, but genreally in that case you have WAY higher offence and start before i do because of support. im not here to complain aobut that, you are higher levels, and desereve the extra bonuses given to you from achieving that. however i urge you to try and compare these skills from a 30-33 level characters, and you will find that you are at a huge disadvantage more than 50% of the time, because more than 50% of the battle you do will be against levels 35's (unless you jugg, but thats still not a much better case.)

and i will show you that you dont actually get any bonus chance to stun with mercs, and they still have the lowest damage and the lowest stun rate with this skill.
quote:

but it can be much higher if not blocked

for once, i've found trans did not do his homework
i compared the possibilites of stunning, of my 33 merc, and 31 BH. the bounty did have maxed shadow arts so, "oh look, they have an 'equal' chance to stun!" wrong
they have a 4% chance higher still on level 1, than merc does on level 10 stun skill
how did i get 4%?
it gives 40% of the average (and recommended) 90% chance to land the strike on someone with your dex.
(the 90% comes from the base 8% +2% from average out the level of shadow arts one someone my level at 5 and dividing it by 3 [6 classes/2classes with shadow=3] 5/3= 1.67>round that up to 2 for the sake of simply numbers, and you get 10% chance of getting blocked by someone your level.)

10% i think is fine, i CAN go a whole 15 turn game without striking more than once, but when you need to strike to leech, and to stun, it becomes a problem becase either drain or your stun will get blocked 1/5 games.

so at a 30 energy cost, you have a 4% lower chance to stun on average than a bounty hunter with a 13 energy cost.

i still say: make the energy cost par (increase it a little) and make the stun go through still to balance this skill with the rest of them/


Oh and i didnt even mention the fact the a bounty hunter can decrease every single other stun skill's success right now and has the higher average chance of success on its own. it can take dex from merc, increase block chance, and it can weaken overload because its dependant on dex.



Ranloth -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 16:51:30)

I have yet to find out where I've said they have an equal chance to stun. All I've said was higher if you train it properly and ignores defence which can make the DAMAGE equal to that of Stun Grenades or better. You're now comparing Maul to Grenade and Shadow Arts. An unfair comparison since you're adding a passive onto the Grenade yet leaving Maul on its own. Fair comparison is Maul vs. Grenade, not Grenade AND Shadow Arts.

Furthermore, you assume all CHs and BHs will have SA, regardless of their build and level which makes it unfair at lower levels when they cannot afford to train SA as easily.

Stun on block would make it unequal. It has advantage in damage which makes up for being blockable. The defence reducing effect does go through on blocks unlike any other blockable attack would. The logic would also be missing here. From your latest post, it sounds like a rant on BHs with Smoke because you keep missing. Reducing Dex affects blocking but you can debuff Smoke through Assault Bot (if you have it) or wait until Smoke is gone rather than risking it whilst it's active. It doesn't affect Overload, at all. You're comparing Stun effect not damage, and Stun works off Support - whether you get stunned or not - not Dex.

Make the Stun on block and you may as well as make it a copy of Stun Grenade and fixed 30% instead of the way in which it works now. Take out the defence ignore as well. Mercenaries are made to deal damage hence why the effect of ignoring defences is there & it works off Strength which boosts up quite a few of Merc's skills that rely on Strength.



Bloodpact -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 16:54:07)

Trans is right on this one :] I do believe.

I was going to post on the fact that he was going for maul greater output
thus it's blockablility.

but Trans got it covered. :D




toopygoo -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 17:08:22)

quote:

I have yet to find out where I've said they have an equal chance to stun.

you said it in the message post to that one i do believe
quote:

Yes, I know the higher chance to stun is 0% if you get blocked but it can be much higher if not blocked

so youre saying it is balanced out, right? i thought that was the message of this sentence, but correct me if im wrong

quote:

Furthermore, you assume all CHs and BHs will have SA, regardless of their build and level which makes it unfair at lower levels when they cannot afford to train SA as easily.

no i assumed that on average most people my level have it around 5 (which was the number i used in my calculations)
quote:

(the 90% comes from the base 8% +2% from average out the level of shadow arts one someone my level at 5 and dividing it by 3 [6 classes/2classes with shadow=3] 5/3= 1.67>round that up to 2 for the sake of simply numbers, and you get 10% chance of getting blocked by someone your level.)

and you cant NOT included because its present
its there
its used
it is, whether you or i or anyone likes it, present and must be considered in the calculations

i told you i miss 10% of the time. i said its a fair number too
quote:

you get 10% chance of getting blocked by someone your level.)

10% i think is fine, i CAN go a whole 15 turn game without striking more than once

yes i have assualt bot, yes i can wait for debuffs to go away. my build is fine, im not complaining about MY BUILD losing frequently.
what i am complaining about, and i have stayed on topic with was the fact that on average, Mercenaries stun skill (like the title says its about) is at a disadvantage compared the other stun skills from other classes.

i have provided numbers to prove my points, and shown where i got them from. thats your thing trans, thats why i, and many others respect you. youre going blind on this one. prove to me, numerically that my calculations do not prove that on average mercenaries can stun like anyone else. and although they are a "damage" class, like you say, my problem with this is that, its hard to deal damage when 1/3rd skill you use have a 10% chance of getting blocked. see below:

static smash
double strike
berzerker
maul
4/12 active skills require you to expose yourself to the weakness of blocking.
im not counting intimidate, because that one works nonetheless, but it could technically raise this stat to 5/12.



Ranloth -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 17:39:03)

You can't really say 1/3 of the time you get blocked since that'd be near-max blocking chance without SA (and cores), with possibly a massive gap in Dexterity (but Smoke). Yes, I'm aware of the attacks that Mercs have being blockable (and it's rather high) but they all deal high damage and are made for it, even Maul at cost of having blockable Stun. *let's not take my words literally and say Smash doesn't deal damage :I*

I do see where you're coming from with Maul since I do have a Merc of my own and I do use the skill, and it sucks when it gets blocked (even if Lvl 1). But in this case, the unblockable was switched for more power and letting it be blockable. It was done for sake of the whole "damage" class concept which you can see it is just by looking at their skills. At least with the new blocking system, Maul's defence ignore goes through as opposed to the old blocks being just awful.

The whole point is: if you make the effect go through on block, the skill would have too much of an advantage since it could stun regardless of whether it connects or not, but also end up dealing more damage when it connects and stuns.



The Incredible Hulk -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 17:42:45)

I would rather have more stun percentage on merc rather then a deflectable.



toopygoo -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 17:46:11)

nono, i get blocked 1/10 the time.
and then how about this:
like the preposition for assimilation, when blocked, the percentage for stun from maul is cut but 50% but still exists?

this would still allow for slight chance (which is really all you need) and when blocked on max level, its 2% lower than on lowest level, so energy-wise, its not efficient, but fair to those who spend so much



Bloodpact -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 17:57:13)

^Now that I can agree on

after all such small %'s already exist in the Aux core

so it's not unheard of



toopygoo -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 18:15:11)

alright doo : )
im looking for more thumbs up on this. i just want a fix everyone (well a lot of people atleast) does agree, cause devs are more likely to implement the change then.



Ranloth -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 18:21:23)

There's another way to go about it. An unique skill for Mercenaries which would work like Bunker Buster without the Crit boost, having 30% stun chance, 20% defence ignore and deflectable. So it'd be unblockable, deflectable and ignoring 20% defence + improving with Strength which is Mercenaries do use on their blockable skills.
So technically, it'd be stronger than the likes of Overload and Stun Grenade due to defence ignore, but weaker when deflected which is a nice trade-off. Stun would always land at least and Strength would be interesting to have as unblockable.

How does that sound? Fixes the argument where Mercs have many unblockables, mine with saying it should deal higher damage and yours with Stun being fair for everyone.



toopygoo -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 18:28:22)

thumbs up from me :D



Bloodpact -> RE: merc stun skill (5/28/2013 18:57:30)

Sounds like a beautiful skill to me. [:)]



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