questions about "balance"

questions about "balance" (Full Version)

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toopygoo -> questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 17:43:27)
hey guys, just a few questions to get you thinking about balance: why is it that i am regularly blocked by someone with 8 dex less than I, however never (well exaggerting, maybe once out of 15) block someone with 20+ dex than me? i have the 2% extra chance to block passive core, if that helps anyone answer. also, why is it that people who have generally lopsided builds, and have awful win/loss ratios suddenly get this privilege of 2% chance blocks, crits, deflections etc? i faced a 35 TLM, with 10 more support than 1. he started both games, which is okay, i mean he had 50/50 chance (i am two levels lower) so that's a 25% chance of occuring overall. i used a stun attack 6 times (with 25% chance to stun) was blocked 0 times and stunned 0 times... if we do the math... 23% *6=138% chance of stunning him... he also blocked twice (i had higher dex by 15 points which should lower his odds of blocking to i believe 3-5% depending on his possession of the core) deflected 4 times (his tech was like 30 points higher, so no complaints) and critted thrice. these are all things which i didnt do a single time i did not crit, i did not deflect, i did not block over the course of two games. here is what ticks me off, from what iv seen in prior rants, the best responses i can get is "oh thats bad luck, ive never had that before" or "thats just bad luck, i get that sometimes too" what i want is a solution people. these percents arent working in battle calculations, we gotta fix them. cause apparently even a 3-5% chance to block can be way too high... you konw whats weird? my aux has a 3-5% chance to stun (depending on relative support of my enemy) and there have been no games where i stunned twice in a row... infact the last id say maybe 150 games, i havent stunned at all (not i dont use my aux every game, but i use it 2/3 of the time)

Ranloth -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 17:51:19)
To the first paragraph, the answer is easy: luck. You've had equal chance (or near equal) but the probabilities decided to be funny thus causing you the bad luck. There isn't any other solution. Lowering %s will only make people even more furious because they've had even lower chance to get blocked/deflected/critted yet it's happened. Easy way to deal with it is to reduce the effect of luck, such as the change to blocks (85% damage blocked, 15% goes through). There really isn't any other solution. With the Stun Core, it does stun fairly often for me. Or at least when I log in and play Juggernaut. 3% is fixed, it doesn't depend on Support like Stun skills that classes own, but I've had Overload stun followed by my Aux which was hilarious to see. Not only that, Overload stunned again once the cooldown was over. XD But it's low chance which makes it that rare. It doesn't happen a lot but it does work as it should - stuns but at a very low chance. As I've said, pulling off a double stun with the Aux would be very lucky (0.03 * 0.03 = 0.0009 -> 0.09% chance), but Stun Grenade/Overload + Stun Core is more likely to occur a bit more often. Nevertheless, still rare to see a double stun.

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 17:54:31)
i understand those figures and approve your theory entirely. lowering the efficiency of blocks snd crits and defelctions, i think isnt a bad way to go... and also wouldnt that mean that he pulled off a 0.09-0.25 chance to double block me then? (with the 3-5%

Ranloth -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 17:58:54)
With blocks, just multiply his chance to block by itself - so if it was 25% -> 0.25 * 0.25 = <whatever the answer is> Rabble is working on reducing the impact of luck. The block change was an initial change that will occur to them but it needs time to be done properly instead of a mere band-aid. I believe the same will happen with deflections. Crits are going in the right direction - the % of defence being ignored was lowered once (50% -> 45%) and the minimum damage bonus was also lowered down twice, to that of 3-6 more damage (minimum) depending on your level. It was around 9-12 before any changes were made. For now, all we can do is wait. It's frustrating when it happens but at least something is being done about the whole luck issue.

Bloodpact -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 18:04:52)
Luck will always play some factor in all games, it's just a bit high atm.as Trans has stated Rabble has been working on it if you read all his updates.

Mother1 -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 18:08:55)
@ trans That would be 0.0625% Trans however, even with all these changes some people don't care about that because even if you lower the chance of all these happening to let's say 5% if these happen too often (when we know it is pure chance) people will complain. Heck for some it has gotten to the point where they want all these removed because there is already enough luck with the RNG.

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 19:53:13)
i appreciate the thought out responses guys, but heres my problem: you claim thats its blind luck (which i agree SHOULD be the case) but after reading mother1's post i went and played 5 juggernaught games.. of course, you meet people with low stats and all... i had a game where not a single hit connected and i was critted 3 times. i lost 4/5 games due to god-awful luck, and this is average for me... 75% of the battles i do have these stuff. so although we can show figures of what the odds are supposed to be, im having that happen 3/4 to me. i know no one can fix that... ranting helps me feel better...

Ranloth -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 20:01:20)
I play Juggernaut a lot lately and I've got cases of deflecting and blocking a lot, albeit still critted against quite a fair amount but often deflected. So in this case, it's bad luck. 5 battles isn't enough to get data, especially when it's anecdotal. In this aspect, nerfs are good because battles get longer and luck's effect is spread out throughout the course of the battle, hence why 2v2 isn't as imbalanced as 1v1 is. assuming same level players P.S. I'm a Dex abuser (Juggernaut build) and use Nanosteel Armor on my Bunny Borg. So blocks + deflections were all based on my stats.

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 20:08:13)
ill have to try this dex abusing thing.. except there is no dex requiring skill for mercs -.- compared to the fact that we are expected to use strike for main source of skill damage.. we only get tech and support based skills

Ranloth -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 20:13:06)
Oh sorry, I didn't notice you're a Merc. XD It works for me as a BM since we've got Overload + Multi. Although.. were Mercs every good in Juggernaut? I remember people saying it's one of the worst classes for Juggernaut.. Probably Tech abuse could work with the IA, Bunker, and Static Smash. I dunno, never been a Merc in Juggernaut.

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 20:27:17)
yeah its ok i have a 60% win/loss so its average, but i lose so much cause of luck :/. i used to have a counter-jugg build at a lower level. they didnt expect people with my defence and attack, and put me on par with them in 1v1 situation when neither of us had energy. it doesnt work so well anymore because of this skill tree problem. to be fair, im not sure if there are other classes out there that dont have branching into atleast 3 stats for skil dependancy: bounty hunter: support for shields, tech for smoke+drain, dex for grenade and multi tech mage: strength for assim, tech for super and plasma bolt, dex for multi and overload tactical merc: support for multi +field commander, tech for surgical dex for stun, and according to wiki, their double strike improves with strength blood mage: strength for fire bolt, support for dex shield, dex for overload and multi, and tech for plasma cannon cyber hunter: support for malfunction, tech for EMP, dex for multi mercenary: tech for surgical, bunker, and support for blood commander, and multi and intimidate. their other skils are left unmanipulatable. itd be great if one of their skills could be imporved with dex, so that build could be explored too.

Ranloth -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 20:34:50)
Dex already is needed for the blockable skills that Mercenaries have. Zerker, Double Strike, Maul & effect wise, there is also Static Smash and Intimidate. Whilst none improve with Dex, it's greatly needed for Mercenaries. Similar with TLMs. 60% ratio isn't all that bad for a Merc in Juggernaut. My BM build averages around 70-72% in Juggernaut which is apparently quite good for Omega standards and Juggernaut. Although I do lose a fair amount of times as well. .-.

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 20:40:42)
but see thats the problem: you need a lot of dex in order to use them, but dex doesnt improve them, and rather diminishes the level to which you can boost them with strength. if they increased just (for example) double strike, or maul or berzerker, then that would make more sense, but only few of their skills can be improved...

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 20:41:54)
the only reason i bring this point up is cause i tried the last week with a merc strength build, and it did not go well, giving only a 1:1 ratio (again with my crappy luck) i have alts with 4X win ratios or 3.5X and i know its achievable, but i cant seem to manage to find anything i can consistently use :/

Bloodpact -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 21:54:22)
A good way to boost your Dex is just put all 10 point on your armor into RES then raise your DEX until your DEF is at par with your RES. I personally have 90+ DEX While maintaining 17-21 Strike + Sidearm Dmg Which is a fair amount of str. ALl about sacrifices ,with me it's support, with Mercs you need your support so you just got to explore your build option to make everything optimal.

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 21:59:04)
but there is a problem with that... we need dex so we dont get blocked. that means points in dexterity, not physical defense. someone with 15 physical +10+10 has 35 physical defense but dex is only like 35, so they'll get blocked a lot still

Bloodpact -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 22:01:16)
Bud reread my post... you took it in opposition

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 22:06:07)
i did read it wrong, but sadly that doesnt solve my problem. i had my build like that this past week when trying strength, and the problem is you need 42 support minimum to keep hybrid shield... (maybe they should change that skill to dex requirement instead...) so i can have a strong dex and high strength build at the cost of no focus (which would be okay) and also no shield. you also need support to have any passive with merc, which might be why so many of them run on support instead of creativity. point is, when i had that build (like you said) either my strength or health wasnt high enough to last until rage...

Bloodpact -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/29/2013 22:18:54)
Ight. Now I want to make a build for you. What's great about the passives needing support is that the support is like your crit shield to put on top of your tankyness, + all the added goodie of it buffing BC.(so basically raising your strength)

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/30/2013 4:47:46)
sooo... you want me to try a support build while tanking?

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/30/2013 6:57:56)
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR (that was my attempted growling.....) finally this morning i had some fair luck in juggernaught... i wasnt blocked over and over again by low def, crits from bunkers were 25%, and i actually deflected (i went back to a tech build) i got blocked too, dont get me wrong, but only when their physical defense was higher than mine. i got a 15 win streak when numbers worked the way they should... at about 6:30 it all changed. suddenly i suffered 3-5 crits per game, got blocked randomly by mages with like 8-12 defense, and i myself got no crits on them or deflections and blocks... 7 games in a row... i konw trans said 5 games isnt enough, and i admit even 7 is short (although in biology, 5 is enough for stastical research...) but 7 in a ROW? you gotta be kidding me...

Ranloth -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/30/2013 7:04:26)
Base chance to block. It's still there. 2% or 6% with Ninja Reflexes. It cannot go below that. It's the reason why cutting down the probability doesn't fix the problem because.. it makes you more furious if the opponent had very low chance and the effect occured, no? Ideally, sample of a 100 is perfect. But problem is.. ranges in Juggernaut are not fixed and the stats are different so the result would be skewed. Remember that luck-increasing cores exist, and these do raise the base amount + cannot be reduced at all. Based on your post, everything is fine. You've had your luck, now they have theirs. It averages out. Why should you get these effects and they shouldn't, at all?

Xendran -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/30/2013 18:14:33)
Crit power to 20% ignore base Support increases crit power Focus increases crit rate

toopygoo -> RE: questions about "balance" (5/30/2013 18:56:54)
when i had my turn, the numbers were all around 30%+... when they had their turn... the numbers were 10% at best. then atleast a 3:1 ratio is to be expected.. not like 2:1... big difference.

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