How much does skill matter in ED today? (Full Version)

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SylvanElf -> How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 14:42:42)

Today, after a particularly annoying string of undeserved losses, it hit me that strategical skill or experience no longer seems to be an essential component to success.

A new player can buy the latest set of promo gear + cores, find a common stat abuse build, and after a bit of familiarization with battle dynamics, they can be competitive with veteran players who don't use these shortcuts.

Now, that may be a good thing for attracting and keeping new players, but it also means that strategical experience means a lot less than in the past. The enhancement fiasco of past game phases produced a similar issue, but IMO this problem has been carried over into Omega through different means. Some may say just take the same shortcuts, but that does not really resolve... it just masks the issue.

How much do you think skill or strategical experience really matter to victory in ED today?




sky222 -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 14:57:26)

Sadly, there is a very low cap on how much skill helps
That cap is how much skill you need to copy someone else's build




Dual Thrusters -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 14:59:30)

@sky

The skill there is how much better you can use it than the original creator




Mother1 -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 15:04:27)

With the way things are not much IMO.

Be it come from people continually using overused builds (Note I didn't say overpowered because overpowered builds can't be beaten while overused one can be beaten but makes a certain group of people bite the sour end of the stick) People complaining about their bane build to the point where the staff nerfs it because it is overused (Not overpowered) instead of finding the build to counter this build, Etc.

Everything for the sake of making the game simple has been done to keep players. This is just how I see it.




Scyze -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 15:24:14)

Veteran or beginner, I don't care about this in ED. A guy like me can beat a veteran easily and the term veteran is stupid to use. ED has been live for about 4 or so years now and and I don't think they should really be called veterans, yet. comicalbiker has the most 1v1 victories but does that make him the best at dueling? When people go for the daily championship, does a thing like the win ratio matter?


When there are long battles, doesn't strategy come into play more? If the guy just copied someone's build, it should be easy to figure out if that guy is... well, bad. Look around, you can find plenty of builds that are copied. Nevertheless, this did happen in Delta, Gamma and Beta but people never really took it to a great consideration as they do now. I've never been able to control luck and it might seem that others can. I'll just deal with it now and hope that the next battle, I beat that guy.

Is this guy the person you describe as a beginner?
And these veteran players don't use these new promos or Cores? Is there much of a difference between the Bionic Battlegear and the Exile Battlegear E?
It doesn't matter what gear you buy or not. You buy them for what they can do not if you get a tag as "someone who's taking a shortcut".

The issue that walks around EpicDuel is people buying promos (which are shortcuts) and becoming better than older players people from the past? What do you want then? Everyone was a beginner - I was a crappy player at the start and now I'm better. If you're not willing to give people the opportunity, why should they even bother to play the game? You're adding a wall/barrier in-which they cannot go beyond...



In terms of the whole question, Omega is more balanced than when it was in the start. Nothing has changed from the previous phases. (IMO)
Strategy has always been involved. How skillful you are, it doesn't matter much when luck slaps you on your face. Luck is the big deal and when things happen, it happens. If you hate the idea, then don’t bother to play EpicDuel or any other game.

When you play a game for a long time, you can understand the game more. You learn the aspects of the game; you can stretch possibilities out further. With this experience, you can be better than others but there will always be people better than you.

With that, the game is more balanced. All (passive) Cores do now is make your chance to do something (critical damage, deflection, block) higher. There isn't the thing of the game being more luck based. Everything is the same but all that's happened is the increased amount of chance is different, a lot different for each one of us.




Exploding Penguin -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 16:33:26)

Right now, ED is like a game of poker. Before, it was like a trading card game. By this I mean back then, skill was a vital tool in winning (I believe certain unnamed players, particularly tank TLMs who had lots of strategic thinking, were able to obtain 95%+ win ratios on the 1v1 LB), but luck could still slightly interfere with your plans. Now, it's more like a game of poker where you can use psychological tricks to understand the opponent and try to trip them up (this is the skill part), but you simply cannot change what hand you're dealt, which is far more game-changing than mindgames which you can play with your opponents.




NDB -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 17:34:30)

As little as it may seem, strategy is still the fundamentals of the game. If there really were none, you'd be making random builds and making random moves. Whatever you do to play ing ED, aslong as itrequired some thinking on your part, that's strategy.




Exploding Penguin -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 18:29:14)

@NDB: I think we're making the basis that it's a 1v1 with both players being level 35s with viable builds, such as a merc focus tank build with static smash, the ones you see all the time in 2v2. So, let's say player 1 had a much, much higher win/loss ratio than player 2 had, mainly from wins in Delta or previous phases. Oh, player 2 got a critical hit with his aux on player 1. The additional damage is about 25% player 1's max health, making it very hard to recover from and get back into the game so player 1 can win. If this were a previous phase like Delta or Gamma, that crit would have only taken away an additional 15% or so of player 1's max health, so there's a much bigger impact that luck has now compared to before; the occurrences of luck is equal game and fair for both players, but it's simply that luck is far more severe and much more difficult to recover from.




Kd -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 18:38:05)

@Exploding Penguin: your metaphor with a poker game/trading card game is spot on. Well done




Steel Slayer -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 19:10:10)

IMO, skill still matters plenty. Sure luck plays a big role, but it wont tell you how to do the little things right. Like if your partner is malfed, shield him instead of healing, or if your opponent is close to death, and he goes next, maybe kill him and let your partner heal himself later. That's where strategic thinking can separate the skilled players from the dead ones. No matter how good your build is, if you don't play it right, you're more likely to lose.




DunkThatOreo -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 19:51:18)

@Slayer Those are common sense things though, I wouldn't call that skill or strategic thinking. There are no more creative builds nor skill involved in any battle I've had since omega hit. I was not for this update nor was I against it. I gave up choosing sides because I knew I would be disappointed either way. Every battle is the same, it's rather depressing.




Steel Slayer -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/13/2013 20:13:17)

lol, dunk, call it common sense or call it strategy, but ive seen a lot of people that don't have it.




Predator9657 -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/14/2013 11:10:34)

quote:

Right now, ED is like a game of poker. Before, it was like a trading card game. By this I mean back then, skill was a vital tool in winning (I believe certain unnamed players, particularly tank TLMs who had lots of strategic thinking, were able to obtain 95%+ win ratios on the 1v1 LB), but luck could still slightly interfere with your plans. Now, it's more like a game of poker where you can use psychological tricks to understand the opponent and try to trip them up (this is the skill part), but you simply cannot change what hand you're dealt, which is far more game-changing than mindgames which you can play with your opponents.


That sums it up pretty well.




Exploding Penguin -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/14/2013 11:44:56)

@Steel Slayer: When we get into the discussion of skill vs. luck, I'm pretty sure most of us mean that the fundamentals are there (as oreo said), and that the skill/strategy we're talking about are advanced tactics such as mindgames to trip up the opponent and whatnot.




romanu -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/15/2013 12:08:08)

I find omega needs more strategy then...delta for example. No cores, and you can still win with strategy, no enhancements and you could not win... well ,not much.




IsaiahtheMage -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/15/2013 15:15:35)

I agree with Steel Slayer completely, I've been in the same exact scenarios he described and my partner in 2v2 would make noob decisions and get us both killed.




Stabilis -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/15/2013 16:17:59)

quote:

@Slayer Those are common sense things though, I wouldn't call that skill or strategic thinking. There are no more creative builds nor skill involved in any battle I've had since omega hit. I was not for this update nor was I against it. I gave up choosing sides because I knew Iwould be disappointed either way. Every battle is the same, it's rather depressing.


I agree, and I find that only a small part of the frontal lobe in our brain is needed to play EpicDuel. It takes a short amount of time to learn everything, then you are playing EpicDuel on memory rather than having to do the math.




Exploding Penguin -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/15/2013 18:25:54)

Skill or strategy = thinking
Things like not making "noob decisions," particularly in 2v2 = common sense

There is a big difference between knowing the only possible answer to surviving (for example, between a common sense decision and a noob decisions), and knowing which decision is slight but may make the winning difference by the end of the fight. These kind of things include thinking ahead multiple turns and other such things.




Necromantres -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/16/2013 7:51:44)

How i see it:
If 2 players meet in 1vs1 with the same build cores and weapons...Than the skill battle begins, because assuming both have the same % of doing crits, block , deflects you need to think wise before doing something.
For example : as a caster mage i met another one and he chose to use supercharge at full hp . This way he doesn't get any hp from it . If i use it with a part of the hp depleted i get the hp and thus i get a small advantage.
After some rounds it's my turn i have 9 energy and my opponent have 8. I can use assimilation. Should i use it? Think of it before you read the answer............................No. Because this way he will assimilate me and gain the 17 energy accumulated enough for a plasma bolt instead i chose to wait. if fe use it than is't pretty sure over cause i can assimilate and plasma him, if not the game goes on.


You can easily determinate if gear> experience, by puttin a "veteran" player with mid gear and cores (by mid i mean no rares or something) with a class of it's chose and a newbie with all promos (you tell him what every promo do and what skill of every class can do, you tell him/her the basic) and he chose a class a build and the weapons. Then you put them in an 1vs1 battle and see the outcome .(or 2vs2 but that would have 2 posibilities. 2 newbie vs 2 veterans or 1 newbie and 1 veteran vs 1 newbie and 1 veteran)




Dual Thrusters -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/17/2013 1:20:03)

Even with glass cannons, lots of skill is required to win. You can't just follow a pattern and hope you succeed, you need to plan how to get around your opponent's threats as well.

Short fights can still be epic as long as you were able to put your brain to work.




Exploding Penguin -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/17/2013 11:42:11)

@Dual: While what you say may seem true, (this is from my experience, it may be different for others) I find that short fights will almost never be "epic" or fun. This is because all short fights have an initial game plan before the fight even starts (for example, the game plan of mass BHs back in delta was smoke, strike, strike, mass, with a few minor improvisations based on the opponent). You really only put your brain to work if you're given an entirely new situation against an opponent with a build that has less of a predictable attack pattern.

Bringing up the topic about mindsets for players, here is my thinking on them:
There are 2 basic mindsets behind players:
1. Attack Builds - These builds focus heavily on just dealing enough damage to kill the enemy, ignoring the own player's health and sometimes other stats too, until they find it utterly necessary to do something about their endurance to win
2. Counter Builds - These builds are normally tank builds, or builds that are meant to not overpower the enemy with sheer force, but to reduce the enemy's original attack plan to a very weak state. Counter builds normally just outlast the offensive force of attack builds until they lose all their energy and become very weak, then slowly wither away the opponent's health. Counter builds are typically made to be able to take on a wide variety of enemies with little rock-paper-scissors effects, meaning they can do moderately well against almost all builds (whereas attack builds are extremely effective against some and very weak against others).

So here are the types of engagements:
Attack Build v. Attack Build - Luck will most likely determine the winner. This includes going first, blocks, deflections, and sometimes, but not necessarily needed, critical hits.
Counter Build v. Counter Build - These fights have a tendency to drag on far longer than attack build fights. These encounters will normally result in both players having to use their minds the most because, mathematically speaking, the more turns in a fight, the less predictable the outcome of each turn and of the fight itself. This is where strategy currently plays its biggest role in determining the winner, but a single critical can still easily decide the winner
Attack Build v. Counter Build - These fights all depend on the counter build, which will either need luck or a pre-devised strategy to counter the specific type of attack build.

Those are just my thoughts I'd like to share on strategy, player mindsets, and all that other stuff related to this thread.




VanitySixx -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/19/2013 4:13:11)

READ ALL IF YOU HAVE THE TIME!! If you don't skip to the bolded letters...

There is no strategy. I fool around in Juggernaut, made a funky looking build, clicked random buttons for a few hours and I was around 75%...Maybe I was lucky, I don't know...All I know is you don't have to strategize as much as the old days. Just do the same skills you did in the previous battle.

All of that Attack vs Attack build stuff up there is false in my eyes. The only game mode you probably need to strategize in is 2v2.

1v1 and Juggernaut is the same thing over and over. Luck will usually determine the winner, which is why you see Mercenaries with high support hoping for some crits, Bounty Hunters in 2v2 with High dex to luckily stun an enemy and block, High tech - HP Bounty Hunters and Tech Mages to deflect, do damage, and Bounty Hunters can also block (Mages do extra damage with Deadly aim).

There are a select few builds for each class that actually work. As much as I hate to say it, most of the skills are completely useless in all classes. These useless skills include

Stun Grenade for Tactical

Heal (All Classes) Unless you put a few levels on there and is willing to spend the energy on it.

Heal for all classes at a low level since it does seriously nothing for them.

Adrenaline for Mercenaries. That really doesn't do anything. I seen Mercenaries max it out and I usually rage before them. Makes no difference.

Field Commander because let's face it, we've all fought a Tact and as soon as you see a max field commander you get happy because it's nearly a free win unless they are smart with it.

Lots of cores. Wont name em all but you guys know the cores no1 will ever buy. There's plenty. And if someone bought them they don't do much.

Why do Blood Mages even have Overload and Plasma Rain?? I know it works for regular mages but those skills wont do much since BM's don't have Reroute and Malfunction. In order for those two to
work properly you need Malfunction to do damage and/or reroute so you can at least use one of them a second time. And they need to be at a somewhat high level to do damage.

Massacre on Bounty Hunters. I know it needed a nerf but really EpicDuel?? You nerfed it that much?? Can't even use it since it'll cost majority of a Hunter's energy and for the two Hunter classes, it's hard to gain some energy. It's a struggle.

Poison for Bounty Hunters. In some cases it can actually work out if you have the right cores and weapons... But let's face it, there is a reason why no bounty hunters use Poison. It's pretty much useless if you look at the skill tree we're handed. Only way to pull it off is if you maybe tank a bit, around 13-16 damage and you can maybe hit 70% Win Ratio if you are seriously lucky.

Fireball for Blood Mages needs to be replaced. Don't even try and buff it or nerf it because it'll either get Overpowered with a buff, or seriously beyond useless with a nerf. Best bet is to replace it with a Passive Skill that would boost your Connect % since Blood Mages are usually focused on strength builds (since that's all they can do). If you want to try and add variety, suggest some active skill to take it's place. It's just bad luck rolling the dice with this skill.

Super Charge for Blood Mage....You have to be kidding me.. needs lots of energy to get off a good one, and after that you're useless unless u get Plasma Cannon, and even at that, that's only 2 skills you can use. You need some serious technology if you plan on doing damage at level 35 so you'll need to level the skill, which adds on lots of energy, and ultimately makes the blood mage either waste a ton on energy in order to do 2 moves of some damage, or just use them at lower levels and maneuver around the idea that maybe Plasma will crit...

Reflex Boost for Blood Mage. Why even give them such a thing like Reflex Boost? If you ask me, I think they should get Technician to add Variety. But they should get a new skill like technician, but 15% of damage should convert to energy. This would actually give Plasma Cannon and Super Charge a chance. Btw, this new skill should increase with support in order to be fair, and NOT increase with Dexterity otherwise it'll be OP.


The list may go on or it may not. These were just off the top of my head. You might see players using these skills around the game but if you're using one of the typical builds for your class, High hp - Tech BH, Tank Mercenary with Bunker, etc., you know your chances of winning is high unless the player gets lucky. These skills are good but they revolve around nothing. In order to make them good, you have to strategize, and strategizing in this game is nearly over.

Sorry for typing too much.. lol




Predator9657 -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/19/2013 10:53:48)

^ Good read :D




edwardvulture -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/19/2013 17:21:32)

i agree that stun grenade, poison strike, and field commander are useless. Plasma rain and supercharge is debatable. I'm not sure about fireball. The devs said that the "new classes" would get their own multis and ultimates but that never happened.




King Helios -> RE: How much does skill matter in ED today? (7/19/2013 17:36:12)

Nice post, VanitySixx, except for this:
quote:

Reflex Boost for Blood Mage. Why even give them such a thing like Reflex Boost?

I used a level 7 Reflex Boost in my jugg build. If they use energy, I can Energy Shield or let it build my EP. If they use Physical, low damage with high block chance.




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