RE: Multi Buff (Full Version)

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ND Mallet -> RE: Multi Buff (9/11/2013 14:01:56)

Damage from multi: 50
Defense: 10
Total damage= 40

Damage from multi: 50*.85=42.5=43 damage if fighting two enemies
Defense: 10
Total damage= 33*2=66

You're doing quite a bit more damage with it hitting two people, even after the damage reduction, than if you used it on only one person. If it needs a buff, then the formula should be changed to (Damage-Defense)*.85 rather than (Damage*.85)-Defense



DarkDevil -> RE: Multi Buff (9/12/2013 5:36:28)

i think i now know why multi is not used for bountys and mages , its not because it relies on dex but because dex is not as good as support because of a simple reason which is RAGE.
now rage is good against high armor builds so it should not be nerfed but how about the rage gain and interaction with stats ?

someone with 45 defense and 45 damage against someone with 30 defence and 60 damage.
they will both deal 15 damage a turn but the one with lower defense will get the rage in less time and with someone with higher offence and less defense could gain rage in 2 turns while the one with high defense needs 6.

i don't think i have the solution but i think this is the problem.



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: Multi Buff (9/13/2013 18:14:03)

@ND

Who has a defense of 10? Why not just say 0-0 +0 and make it look like we can pwn with multi.

Most high level player resistances are in the 35-40 range...yes BM is lower and bounty maybe 28-32.
If you really don't understand what we are saying, and you have a high level bounty or cyber, just
go try it. Make a good survivable build, play a 2v2 match and use multi on the second turn if you
haven't been emp'd, smashed, assimilated or sharded yet. When you hit both players for 7-9, you
will see and feel exactly what we are talking about.




Ranloth -> RE: Multi Buff (9/13/2013 18:28:25)

No one is saying players have 10 Defence. He's using it as an example for two different calculations, one applying the penalty (85%) before the defences and one after the defences. It's just to illustrate the idea.



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: Multi Buff (9/14/2013 21:27:41)

Illustrating that idea is exactly how multis were taken out of the game in higher level 2v2 battles.

A more realistic version would be:

Damage from multi: 58 (level 7 on my current build vs 1 player)
Resistance: 35
Total damage: 23, 12 if deflected
Cost: 26 EP

Damage from multi: 58*.85=49 (level 7 on my current build vs 2 players)
Resistance: 35
Total damage: 14*2=28, 14 if deflected
Cost: 34 EP

So as you can see, I'm not doing quite a bit more damage hitting 2 people...5 more damage at a cost of 8 EP.

Using ridiculous calculations to illustrate and defend the worst nerf in the game is very misleading. I would
prefer to see realistic examples used, which show support for what most of us are saying.




DarkDevil -> RE: Multi Buff (9/15/2013 3:39:36)

at high levels you need up to 70 dmg in multi as all supp mercs do so 58 is not enough 85% is like 1.5 points per 10 dmg rounded down since damage is rounded up (not sure) so 70-10 = 50 = 25 damage each.

as i stated the reason why dex multi is not usually as good as supp is because of rage and crict so simply supp > dex.

a bounty or mage can't end up with 150 dex while a merc can be 150 supp because of the 2 turns rage advantage.

it might be easier for a cyber to do so bec of the 10 resistance which can make up for the low tech yet after 2 turns the dex build got nothing while the supp merc still has aux althought he could die before he use it again but a dex tank build will have nothing to kill as he still needs 4 more turns to rage while the merc will have had it.



Ranloth -> RE: Multi Buff (9/15/2013 7:31:51)

@Archlord Raistlin

1) Please read ND's post properly. He's suggesting a buff and you've simply ignored the whole post. Using ND's method (applying penalty after defences), the 15% damage penalty would be much smaller - because you've already deducted defence and then applying the penalty, so it will always result in smaller number thus damage penalty is also lower.
2) Multi skills cannot be deflected.
3) Multi is supposed to be used in 2v2. You will NOT deal more damage with it in 1v1 than in 2v2 because it's impossible. Why should you hit double the damage? Multi is 2v2-based skill, Plasma Bolt is 1v1-based hence why it deals more damage than Multi in 1v1.
4) Your example doesn't show us anything. You've given us your stats, nothing else. What are we supposed to do with it? Apply with ND's formula? Okay.

quote:

Damage from multi: 58 - 35 = 23 * 0.85 = 19.55 (20) (level 7 on my current build vs 2 players)
Resistance: 35
Total damage: 20*2 = 40 damage (2 players)
Cost: 34 EP


There you go. But wait. Aren't you dealing 6 more damage on both players? Is that REALLY defending a nerf or suggesting an appropriate buff? From your numbers and using ND's suggestion, I can see 6 damage buff, from 14 damage to 20 damage. Double that for 2v2 (assuming same resistance which is unrealistic but you get the point). Next time, you should read the posts carefully since you're in the wrong here and ND wasn't defending the nerf, but suggesting a buff.



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: Multi Buff (9/17/2013 15:11:37)

@trans

I do understand the post and the fact that ND is suggesting a small buff, so your example is pointless of how we
can go from 14 dmg to 20 dmg on each player by following ND's suggestion. I'm not criticizing the suggestion,
just the fact that calculations showing 66 damage can be misleading and that even with the buff suggestion, it
will not make it strong enough to be a usable skill in high level 2v2 matches.

If multi can be successful in lower levels, but not higher levels, don't you think that's unfair and a bit of a problem?
I'm sure many of us would like to be able to use multi again...

I understand that you were part of the mix in getting multi severely nerfed, but you shouldn't get all upset when
others don't think your efforts helped the game. I've said from day one that the multi strike nerfs were a bad idea.
I can't speak for lower levels, but hardly anyone at high levels has used multi in 2v2 for a year. This is proof enough
that the dev's should take a closer look at this and make some adjustments.

Every day I see artillary crits for 49 on a person, sometimes double crits for 98...usually I'm the person. That alone
makes discussing whether or not we should raise multi strike damage by 6 points seem useless. It needs a significant
change... as mentioned in most of these posts.



Sensei Chan -> RE: Multi Buff (9/17/2013 15:31:46)

I will tell you why I don't support this.
Support build's are the only useful multi builds and they are already overpowered compared to the other multi builds



Ranloth -> RE: Multi Buff (9/17/2013 15:59:39)

Next time, could you check how Crits work, please?

1) At higher levels, they add minimum of 9 damage.
2) Half of your defences is ignored on a Crit.
3) If Multi was to deal 20 damage at 40 Defence, it can easily deal 49 damage when it crits. No, that's not an issue with Multi skills but AS improving with Support. As a counter-argument, Dex/Tech raises your defences passively whilst you can only use your Aux every 3 turns & Crits are not guaranteed.
4) Flawed statement. Multis cannot be equal to AS because you'd be giving them a major buff on top of what they already have. Look at what STATS give you rather than Multi + improving stat only.
5) You can crit with your Multi too, just less often. Not only that, you will still retain high defences - unlike Support abusers.
6) If 6 damage buff - using your example - is not enough, then I don't know what you're expecting. I thought any buff would suffice. Of course we'd all want out perfect buffs, but it's better than nothing. You want a buff, you get one and you claim it's weak.
7) "6 damage buff" is only when using your example. ND's method allows Multis to be stronger when used on tanks and less efficient on glass-cannons, nevertheless, still more powerful under any assumptions than they are now - the penalty is no longer applied on the damage (which makes it maximum possible) but after defences. It's an all-round buff.

Balance is not supposed to be subjective, and that's why buffs won't happen because "I think it should be buffed". Logical statements backed up with sufficient amount of data and you may include personal reason (opinion) as of to why it should be buffed. Opinion =/= fact and biased points are not listened to for obvious reasons.



Mother1 -> RE: Multi Buff (9/17/2013 17:11:55)

@ trans

the percent crits where made to ignore was reduced from 50% to 45% months ago due to people complaining about support abuse and crits.



Ranloth -> RE: Multi Buff (9/17/2013 17:33:33)

5% of 40 Res would be 2 damage, still possible to hit in high 40s & we don't know how accurate Archlord's example is. The point still stands, just wrong calculation. :p



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: Multi Buff (9/20/2013 0:15:29)

@trans

What I expect is very simple...to have multi be a usable skill in my tree again and for it to be a threat in a
match again. I'm sure that allowing sup spamming mercs to have the only usable 2-person attack in the
game was not the original intent.

It's way past the time to fix that mistake...



Seteriel -> RE: Multi Buff (9/20/2013 8:49:23)

What about replacing the unblockable/undeflectable artillery with a blockable meele skill ? It would go like the berzerker skill, a percentage increase of damge
per skill point invested. As it is now blockable, a compensation of 10% defenses ignored could be included. That way support spamming was out.
It will put more tension on strength/luck building, though.

Idea descends from cheap shot: it's the only blockable crit skill. And as many see the merc as "OP", a blockable merc multi would take away the "OPed-ness".

However, the basic point of multi skills beeing hard to use nowadays still stands with this.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: Multi Buff (9/20/2013 20:16:09)

quote:

-Did I mention that each attack will have an extremely high chance to crit?


maximum chance discluding cores is 30% i think. and, no not op. because they would be beaten down so hard by str builds. would be killed by bloodlust builds. frenzy tank tlm with high tec and assault bot.



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