RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Drop_Bear -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 6:56:46)

What I thought the reflect shield would have been was that damage reflected would not have been taken. This means it would have effectively been a 1 turn enemy hurts itself and then a 30% dmg reduction + bit of damage the next few turns. This way it would have effectively been a 1 turn free damage and a few turns boost nerf + some damage based on enemy's damage.

Considering that Necro's equivalent only has a 50% chance of working it would probably be op but would have been nice. Otherwise the damage reflect is probably the only move on the class I don't use.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 7:51:13)

The reflect skill has niche uses, but it is extremely powerful in the right situations (like Necromancer and Death Knight inspire terror and unholy will skills)



ProstheticFate -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 8:56:31)

The way I feel about this class from using it for a while, it doesn't seem to excel at anything it has some cool gimmicks with enfeebling scythe and draining roots which has a better effect if the opponent is stunned providing what your up against doesn't have high immo resist.

If there was one thing I would change about both revamps would be the reflect skill, this is most likely OP but it'd make the reflect skill have some better use like for example when the opponent hits you while the reflect is active it could lose 30 the 1st turn immo than lose an additional 5 immo resist for the rest of the other turns to a total 45 like a bleed effect.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 11:05:02)

quote:

If foe's health is less than or equal to the amount of the "reflect" damage, Your foe avoids the thorns!, appears and no damage is "reflected". (This is to make sure you don't cause the game to freeze.)


Could this be changed into setting the enemy's HP to 1 instead of simply dealing no damage? If he already had 1hp he would then "avoid the thorns".



Ash -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 11:41:06)

quote:

Would it be possible to make the damage reflect move do damage based on pre player modification, like hit rate damage resist so lets say a creature hit would hit me for 150 but I have 100% resist to its element, it would do the damage it would have done before my defences reduce it.

No there isn't a way to do that.

quote:

I think my only gripe with this revamp is the reflect shield, I just don't see in most situations where it would be useful, the idea is clever but as far as usefulness not good IMO.

*shrugs* It's meant to replace the absolutly useless defense skill that was there before. Given the choice which actually has a use?

quote:

If there was one thing I would change about both revamps would be the reflect skill, this is most likely OP but it'd make the reflect skill have some better use like for example when the opponent hits you while the reflect is active it could lose 30 the 1st turn immo than lose an additional 5 immo resist for the rest of the other turns to a total 45 like a bleed effect.

The way it has to be setup would make that really difficult to get it to track correctly. What reasoning do thorns jabbing into your opponent have to lower immo resist? If you can answer that I'll consider it and try to figure out a way to balance it out.

Mr G W - That was a last minute "I need to get to bed but need a way to stop them from glitching out". I'm working on something else to make it work for low HP. There's also still some time left for you all to give me a concrete "no we ALL don't like this reflect skill" so I can come up with another one. It has to be a large majority though, three people not liking it doesn't constitute a majority.



pitties -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 11:55:03)

Yea the reflect skill is lackluster. In order to reflect respectful damage, we still have to take the damage... and it is useless for most monsters because they hit low! I would instead like the thorns to put a DoT called "bleed" that could increase in power everythime your thorns were hit by the enemy during the duration (misses wouldn't buff the DoT)!



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 12:07:52)

The reflect skill has more damage potential than necromancer/death knight dominate skills actually.

Also it reflects ACTUAL damage taken, not base 100% damage like the dominate skills. This is particularly useful for low damage enemies that attack multiple times. Dominate will only do 1 hit of base damage while reflect will do the full damage as it should

Try using it against boss monsters like guffer or doctor when. It will do incredible amounts of damage.

It is a niche skill like all other defensive skills, but it is very powerful if used at right situations. If you find yourself in a battle using any form of defensive skill, you are able to take advantage of this skill.

Saying this skill is useless or lackluster is like saying necromancer's turn/inspire terror skills are useless simply because monsters are normally too weak to take advantage from such skills.

Normal skill reflects total of 100% enemy damage, while evolved skill reflects 205% damage total. Death knight deals either 50% or 100% (100% and 200% with inspire weakness).
Necromancer deals 100% or buffs the enemy.

Unlike those, the reflect skill lacks any defense, maybe it could get its damage increased a bit, specially the non evolved shield.

Non-evolved could reflect 70% on first turn and then 25% on the remaining 3 for a total of 145% reflected damage. Evolved doesn't really need a buff as 205% damage is plenty.

You're not getting more damage. Try again. ~Ash

quote:

Mr G W - That was a last minute "I need to get to bed but need a way to stop them from glitching out".


Ah ok.



pitties -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 13:16:13)

It is useless because, even if you reflect guffer's damage, you still just took a massive load of damage. Instead of thinking of everything as a level 80 try to think of lower levels such as levels 30-40 who this class is primarily for. It is far better to skip damage entirely with necromancer's dominate then to equal damage to both sides. Furthermore, guffer has higher hp than the player so you will lose if you just reflect his damage back. Therefore, this skill is very weak and ineffective.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 13:32:13)

Monsters are scaled so it is irrelevant if you are level 1 or 80.

Yes you need to take damage to make use of this skill, so what? If you plan your skills correctly you will use this when all your defensive skills are not available.

Using the guffer example, starting off with reflect and then using final he will be dead in 2 turns, regardless of your stats.

My level 11 account managed to survive 3 hits from guffer at full power. If i had the pumpkin armor fully trained on him, i would have beat him in 2 turns.

Honestly the reflect skill is one of the best skills this class has to offer.



Caststarter -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 13:41:37)

The skill is suppose to be a "counter" let us say that is suppose to punish the enemy for going all out. You still have a heal that you can fall back on to recover 15-25% of your health which is good enough to make you survive the next attack. You then have skills that make you practically unable to be hit afterwards. The class is all about linking skills after using one. You take a bunch of damage, then make the enemy unable to hit you , heat it so you can get back up on your feet to the point you are ready to send the damage right back yet again soon afterwards. The main drawback is that you DO take the damage otherwise it can be extremely broken. And that is why I like it.

It is also best to remember that enemies DO scale both their levels and their damage so you most likely will survive a big hit like a fully charged Guffer. It is also important to know you ARE going to get hit no matter what with the class so it is good to know that the reflect skill can come into play. Just have to make sure it is not an attack that you WANT to get hit.

Do not look at one skill but all of him as a whole. What can you use together to make a rather good combo? If most skills are useful in most situations, then things get kind of boring after a while since then you just have to use the best chain. I like it where I can use these set of skills for this situation and use these set of skills in another. And Pumpkinlord does a good job at it. Hard-hitting boss? Reflect away, enfeebling scythe and heal the damage off. Want to keep the boss unable to hit you? There are skills that do just that.

As for the class itself, it has a good amount of utility behind it while having a good offense with it's pure damage skills. I understand Vine Whip being rather... redundant though. And sure, some of the skills are nature-locked but there is a skill that can lower nature resistance more than by -60% so it makes up for it especially since they receive bonus damage for being element-locked.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 13:51:06)

I find it nice to use when my stuns/shields are during cooldown or unavailable.

I know i will be taking full damage from my enemies and use it as an opportunity to maximize my damage output.

That what this skill is for: to use during the turns you are more vulnerable. It has a strategic and niche use and very powerful when properly used.



Snakezarr -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 15:32:19)

First I feel a bit like a jerk considering I didn't say that this armor is amazing so yeah. Maybe the thorns get stuck in the enemy and he spends time picking them out, which gives him less time to focus on roots grabbing him? Probally just grasping at straw.



ProstheticFate -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 15:40:52)

quote:

The way it has to be setup would make that really difficult to get it to track correctly. What reasoning do thorns jabbing into your opponent have to lower immo resist? If you can answer that I'll consider it and try to figure out a way to balance it out.


My reason why for the idea behind thorns lowering immo resist was to allow both pumpkin lords to be able stun their opponents a bit more reliably and thus allow get the better effect of draining/sapping roots. But like I said kinda OP, because you could probably loop this easily with all the other defensive skills, while the stun CD is active with the stun duration and than mixed with all the other defensive skills could give you enough turns to use the reflect shield and creeping roots again and easily get around health candy's 9 CD.



Snakezarr -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 17:43:03)

I think he meant a realilistic reason as to why.



Drop_Bear -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 19:07:00)

Yea, I think he meant a thematic reason such as the embedded thorns distracting them making it easier to get the drop on the enemy to pull off a stun. The distraction logic though is rather vague and could be used to justify just about anything though :/.

Edit: If you don't mind using a trinket skill the class covers the defence gap perfectly with not so tiny bubbles. If you switch between the shield and NSTB you get an infinite defence loop. This isn't important for balancing but just an FYI.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 19:41:17)

Can also do that any other class with a shield skill though, not just pumpkin lord.



Drop_Bear -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 21:28:27)

Most classes you can depending on cooldown but that's for a different thread.

So as not to go off topic I've found the class a very good storyline class as it powers through mobs quickly, destroys your average boss very quickly and can sustain through long quests. The two multi's also make for great utility. I've found that holes in its defence and long cooldowns on the nukes means its not as good for sustained damage and defence against bosses. This makes it a very useful class but still having areas its not as good in making it balanced.

Probably my favourate rebalance yet and if I didn't have doomknight saved I would probably save it.



ProstheticFate -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/12/2014 21:31:57)

quote:

Yea, I think he meant a thematic reason such as the embedded thorns distracting them making it easier to get the drop on the enemy to pull off a stun. The distraction logic though is rather vague and could be used to justify just about anything though :/.

Edit: If you don't mind using a trinket skill the class covers the defence gap perfectly with not so tiny bubbles. If you switch between the shield and NSTB you get an infinite defence loop. This isn't important for balancing but just an FYI.


Now when I think about it I never got around to trying NSTB, I feel pretty dumb now. But then again the suggestion is at least something to consider, the lore in my suggestion I wanted to go for was when something punches the thorns they would be put off guard hence why I went with the immo resist. Just to make it fair if this was implemented the enemy would have to actually hit you (meaning you take damage and lose health, DoT's don't count) and not miss in order for the immo resist effect to stack up so people would stick around for the effect to stack up and not disregard it on the 1st turn of the thorn shield.



Vestrova -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/14/2014 9:40:42)

um... i was fighting vurrmen in a proper quest with evolved pumpkin lord, and whenever the effect from blade of destiny goes of, the vurrmen hit me instead of me hitting them, and they invariably kill me. this also happened when i fought the cultists in the new artifact quest.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/14/2014 19:22:31)

Getting ready to roll out a fix for that.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/14/2014 21:28:40)

I'll just toss my hat in the ring here and say I love the reflect skill and would hate to see it changed; regardless of any balance problems it may have, it's just plain fun to use on huge attacks. :p

I'd also like to say that DF is hardly difficult enough to worry about taking some damage unless you're doing a tough Hard Mode boss, in which case you can simply not use it. Not everything has to always be useful; there's not a single class where you'll be using every move in every situation.



Drop_Bear -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/14/2014 21:35:43)

I would agree that the reflect skill does not need to be changed though I personally won't be using it. The one thing I would change about the class is making the stun do nature damage like the drain skill but in turn be a three hit stun to increase the probability of a stun going off for the drain combo, even if its damage was also reduced.

The current stun being elemental not locked means that between the two nukes and the stun you can avoid a lot of the classes elemental lock against most monsters but I prefer the idea of using nature as often as possible and the current combination of Stun > Drain > Nuke > Nuke with a nature weapon makes for a very fun combo to set up.



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/14/2014 21:40:28)

quote:

I'd also like to say that DF is hardly difficult enough to worry about taking some damage unless you're doing a tough Hard Mode boss, in which case you can simply not use it.


I'd say that is when it is most useful. When you are out of debuffs and shields (or fighting ridiculously accurate monsters like Dr When or glitched pierce damage), use the reflect and some high damage skills and they will combo nicely.



Greldracion -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/14/2014 22:44:04)

I like the reasoning to keep the pierce skill, especially since if you use in in an offensive way after debuffing the enemy. I also like how the class seems like a utility DK if that makes sense.


Edit:Reflect, I meant reflect.



99th Dracopyre -> RE: =DF= Pumpkin Lord Armor Discussion Thread (10/15/2014 14:07:04)

This is me just being picky but, Sling Thorn's animation seems really dull. Well, as compared to Thorn Cyclone. Maybe it should be faster.

Also, it would be cool if the shield of Bramble Shield doesn't disappear after animations. It'll just look cool, imo.

~Draco



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