RE: Static Grenade (Full Version)

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The Hidden Legend -> RE: Static Grenade (11/29/2013 11:05:09)

maybe they should make the grenade give back 100% but reduce the amount by like half, on level 10 with 111 tech maybe it could take 30, it could scale with tech. btw mother1, ty for clarifying



kaierti2 -> RE: Static Grenade (11/29/2013 11:07:36)

they will never change from 50% to 100%. just need lower energy steal and cool down 4. not other. and plus there are 4-5 and 5-6 support players bounty hunters which build is impossible (example this again with high smoke point and high energy steal http://image.geotorrents.com/images/09409732525989901723.png they dont need support? this is not right) and because of this they also maybe change improve with: support instead of technology but not forget 4 cool down because it is op skill



Ranloth -> RE: Static Grenade (11/29/2013 11:11:39)

[1] Change Tech to Support, [2] lower the base amount by few points (to compensate for having no EP cost, unlike EMP), and [3] lower the drain but buff the return to 75% (so it ends up being reliable source of Energy and not overpowered EP-draining skill).



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Static Grenade (11/29/2013 11:37:58)

trans i think that might work, but lower the base amount by more than just a "few" points, how many points? and kaerti i said change to 100% but lower the amount it drains by about HALF, maybe less maybe more, i dont see why they wouldnt change to 100% if for an average 5 focus it takes and returns maybe 26 with the skill at level 10



Ranloth -> RE: Static Grenade (11/29/2013 11:45:45)

I've crossed it out. ^^ I thought it may be too strong, but players use around (or over) 100 Tech with it, right now, which makes it look strong. With Support improvement, they would have around 50-60 Support at most, so it'd not be needed. Just change improvement and shift drain and return.



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Static Grenade (11/29/2013 15:33:20)

they better make it improve very slowly with support then, and make it give back maybe 80% and take about 25 energy with the skill on lvl 10 and player lvl 36 with base support, it could increase by 1 per level so it would be 15 and taken on lvl 1 and 12 given back to player, it could increase by 2 for every 10 support



GearzHeadz -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 1:28:28)

Changing it to support is a bad idea. Would destroy synergy in the class. Lowering its draining by some points and maybe its scaling I could see as fair, but changing what it scales with isn't balance.



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 1:29:57)

OK simply lower the amount it steals and change the amount it gives back, any better options?



Ranloth -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 7:25:30)

Gearz, that's the main problem with Static Grenade - the synergy with Smoke which makes it an abuseable build. Focus 5, Tech abuse, improving Smoke, high Res, powerful Energy drain/return for free.

One change needed is destroying this synergy with Tech, and there's no other choice but Support - which has defensive skills for BHs, so it wouldn't be that bad. Making it return more - but drain less - would also be a buff, since it's meant to be a decent source of Energy.

Balance isn't forcing you into one build which works the best out of all viable ones, just so you can win.



DavyJones -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 10:28:54)

quote:

I don't like the new smoke screen animation. Change it back please.


True. I don't like it either. they need to change it.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 15:38:19)

In that case, they should change an aux to improve with tech, so mercs cant support abuse. Destroying synergy doesn't equate to balance.



Ranloth -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 15:43:56)

Uh, Tech Aux would be disastrous for Mercs, even more abuseable. Not mentioning Casters.

You don't state any reason why destroying synergy doesn't equate to balance. Tech builds would still be viable, Static Grenade is free (0 EP) - as opposed to old EMP - and you get Energy back from it too. Only difference would be lack of abuse due to synergy.

Think about it, if you nerf the scaling on it, how will other builds fare with it, ones that don't invest in Tech to such an extent as BHs do with Tech? If it went Support, you could make scaling faster, from Tech/4.5 to Support/4 to compensate for it. Furthermore, BHs only have defensive moves on Support so small buff to scaling wouldn't be that much of an issue (justified).

Tell me, why should it remain on Tech and be changed to prevent abuse and be a viable move? Abuse being with medium to high Tech, as well as other bonuses which Tech gives for BHs - such as improving Smoke, Bot + Resistance, and being able to abuse it with little drawback.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 15:54:23)

And tell me, why shouldn't it be able to be abused when bounties don't have very offensive skills? Many skills have been able to be abused, bunker, artillery, mage multi/stun. Although this isn't my point, I agree it needs a change, just not the way you're saying by converting to support.

I think it should just scale slower. Make it to where a 40 energy drain static grenade would drain 30. Would put the move just above assimilation, and just below static smash. If the user did want to abuse it, they'd have to heavily invest in tech.



Teserve -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 15:54:30)

quote:

Destroying synergy doesn't equate to balance.


But destroying synergy that is too strong is.

@below
Then maybe we should consider creating a thread about changing other classes too. O.o



GearzHeadz -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 15:56:13)

@Teserve
If that is true, many skills in other classes need to be destroyed.



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 15:58:47)

gearheadz, it shouldnt be able to be abused because its obviously oped, look at all the bh, why should other skills be destroyed if they dont make the class oped, if the synergy matters enough they could simply make it increase at a way lower rate and decrease base amount.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 15:59:42)

Look at all the sheep. Overused doesn't equate to op.



Ranloth -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 16:02:52)

Being forced to abuse something, in order to win, doesn't equate to balance either. It's something that was said a while back, by the old Balance Team and Rabble alike.

You're confusing two types of abuse, one being a specific combination of a stat with a skill, and other being powerful synergy - such as the ones which BHs have - and there's a big difference between both. It's a move that scales with Tech, has no EP cost, unblockable (and undeflectable), and more powerful than Static Smash due to synergy with Tech and Smoke too.
Another example of such abuse is Casters (TM) with Botanical Hazard's Poison - due to Technology improving your Bot's damage and the amount of Tech which Casters tend to have.

When comparing it to Static Smash and/or Assimilation, make the comparison fair. Don't compare Static Grenade with 100'ish Tech, to Static Smash with around 40-60 Strength at most. There's a big difference. Furthermore, look at secondary effects such as blockable or unblockable, deflectable or undeflectable, etc. In fact, Static Grenade should be just below Static Smash due to, (1) being unblockable and (2) not requiring to use Maul or Staff - unlike Static Smasher/Assimilation.

I'm not saying changing it to Support is the best choice, but leaving it on Tech isn't necessarily the best move either, despite nerfing its scaling. Take some other facts into consideration. *points at third paragraph*



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 16:04:10)

dont try telling me bh is NOT oped, it obviously is, and sheep or no sheep if u ever fought 1 u know its oped, oops my mistake u are 1



Ranloth -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 16:07:17)

@The Hidden Legend
Wrong. BHs are not overpowered as a class, but Static Grenade is thus making BHs seem as if they were overpowered. Nerf the move, not the class.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 16:07:46)

Its synergy doesn't make it stronger than static smash. The fact that it drains more does. And you don't have to be forced to abuse it to win. I'm a bounty, and 62 tech and level 9 static grenade that drains 37.

And yes, I am a bounty hunter. And just because I AM one doesn't mean I don't have to fight others. You know that right? Want to know my build?

Hp-95
Ep-74
Str-36
Dex-136
Tech-62
Supp-36
Focus-1

My tree
1-1-3
3-3-9
7-1-MAX

Not what you were expecting? It isn't the typical BH build.



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 16:16:04)

gearheadz, how often do u win? not 90% like some bh who do abuse it, just becuz u dont have to abuse it 2 win doesnt mean people wont abuse it. y have a hard fight when u can have an easy win? and gearheadz i assumed u were abusing it, and you kinda have to be a class over than bh to actually realize how oped it is, im sure they emp u and u emp right back or other way around.
trans, i assumed you would interpret it as the skill being oped



GearzHeadz -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 16:19:20)

I have abused it before. The win rate isn't 90%. Those who play it smart put up defenses when they get smoked. And suddenly, all that great synergy doesn't seem so great. That's right, putting up one of your defense skill makes smoke have less of an impact! Who would of thought!



The Hidden Legend -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 16:25:20)

gearheadz, look no farther than the lb, be on right after reset and look at some of the % after 2 hours they should be around 90%, seems like i was 5% off, about 300 wins with 85%, i dont understand what your trying to say about smoke.



GearzHeadz -> RE: Static Grenade (11/30/2013 16:27:03)

Those people are always on the leaderboard. They're just skilled players. Most of them were BH before the update with SG anyways.

I'm trying to say static grenades synergy with smoke isn't what makes it powerful. The fact that it drains a high amount it. It just needs to scale slower.



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