RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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NagisaXIkari -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 4:50:29)

Everyone likes stun, blind, and heal over time.

Give the people what they want!



WHITE DRAGON MAGE -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 7:29:33)

Well so far not much has changed with the master soulweaver, so lets give it some time before we try the preview.



Yuttt -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 7:43:22)

Class seems like a more defensive Riftwalker. Really not that impressed for a glass cannon, damage output seems low-ish. The highest damage move (without cooldown) is Reckoning with 252%. And it has a 15 turn cooldown. What seems to be the purpose of the class is not to be a glass cannon, but rather to apply multiple debuffs to the opponent. The 35% boost is nice, but to have it constantly requires you to not use the most powerful move, brings the 252% damage to 340%, the next most powerful (Valor Impact) to 283%, and the next automatically unlocked (seal) to 256%. I feel as if the damage could use some buffing, but still a neat class (can non-DAs still beat dr when with it!?). Cool animations



Ash -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 9:29:44)

quote:

The only other complaint I have is very small - Valor Impact's damage is mediocre, and it can't even be used without having used an even weaker attack first. A combo skill on a glass cannon just kind of bugs me in general, I guess. It would be nice if it came with either more damage or some debilitating effect to justify spending an extra turn on it, but it's not such a big deal.

That's because you're getting the Crit skill with a massively lowered cooldown. Because it's locked out after one other skill you can have it with a 4 turn cooldown instead of the 15. If it leaves that combo it goes up a little in damage but it also incurs a 15 turn cooldown like every other instant crit.

quote:

@Ash: Will you be adding a Passive to MSW like Necro, Pally and DK. I just want to know because you said before that only the classes that are linked to important story lines will have passives (I'm paraphrasing here), so is the Tomix Saga an important enough story line for MSW to get a passive?

No. I said some classes would where it fit thematically, not based on storyline.

quote:

Everyone likes stun, blind, and heal over time.

Give the people what they want!

Most people also want every class to have the strength of doomknight which I'm not going to do. This class has stuns and blinds. It's not getting a HP heal.

Yuttt - Are you missing where I left in 465% damage EVERY FOUR TURNS? And for 2 of those your damage is boosted by 35%. If you aren't using that every possible chance you can get that's on you. That doesn't mean the rest of the skills get "lolz" damage because you aren't using the built in spammable nuke. For regular monster battles End will usually finish them off, or if need be you can follow that up with Pierce or Seal to make sure it's dead. For a boss battle you can consistently deal +35% damage AND push out 465% damage every 4 turns.

As I stated in a twit longer post a while back, you guys can push and prod and wish for OP classes all you want but you aren't going to get something more broken then it can be. If you have valid concerns about skills I'll listen to them, but I've min maxed out the skill damage as much as possible now. Ignoring the quick turnaround nuke with built in damage boost doesn't mean you'll convince me to buff other skills.



Vestrova -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 9:34:45)

i think people aren't factoring in the nuke because it really only comes into play when fighting large enemies, when speeding through dungeons (which most of the game entails) people look at the quick fire skills to dispatch enemies as fast as possible. i think this class does really good when fighting a single large enemy, but suffers when fighting 3 enemies at a time. Although that's probably how its supposed to be. I personally really like the class with the adjustments you made. it works really nice with a little strategy.



Ash -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 9:42:04)

Which it can already do, that's the thing. You can plow through a dungeon very quickly with most of the skills, even if you don't use synch. You don't get an uber finishing move and massive burst damage all in one package. You have to pick. MSW has one of the quickest turnarounds on a nuke but that means you don't get as many large upfront damage skills. (even though you still get a couple high damage ones because it is meant to be offensive)

I understand what you guys want but if you want something to have more upfront damage you're going to lose some of the nerfs to where it's not remotely like the original SW anymore, the +35% boost for 99 turns, and gain a larger cooldown on the nuke. cake <- or -> eating it. There's nothing that sits in that "or" spot unless you want to plop down money on that DmK package. CW is most likely just going to be all burst with no spammable nuke. The exact opposite of this because...it's the exact opposite.



oldmanjenkins -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 9:59:49)

I personally like MSW, the power just go shifted from banishment and soul synch to a lot of the other skills.

quote:

CW is most likely just going to be all burst with no spammable nuke.


Does that mean it will be similar to kathool in the sense that you just burst everything before it can fight back?

quote:

Attack - 130% damage over 2 hits of 60% 65% damage.
"Valor Impact"
240% damage over 3 hits of 70% 80% each. 50% Crit chance.


Is it just me or do some of the numbers not add up.

That's what happened when I try to edit while answer questions after making adjustments. The % damage was correct, the per hit was off since I only corrected the total damage after the adjustments last night. It's fixed now. ~Ash



Dragonman -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 11:33:28)

So SW is keeping the crit boost but MSW gets the Mana Regen? Actually I rather like making that different. I'd prefer if SW had a Random Multi (weaker then before) but MSW had a normal multi.

Just to keep the classes a little different from eachother



Ash -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 11:53:13)

quote:

Does that mean it will be similar to kathool in the sense that you just burst everything before it can fight back?

Most likely. It would make more sense for that mainly because it's both a DC class and it'll work kinda like Vaal. You get major upfront damage (somewhere in the range of 140ish on a basic attack and 180%-220ish?% on all its normal attacks and a few "bursts" at 250%-290ish?%) You'll also have effects since it gets a few additional slots for things, nothing huge but your basic gambit of buffs and nerfs. If it has a nuke though in the sense that SW does it would most likely end up working like every other classes nuke, think the Kathool attack. SW and MSW can't work like that since it spends so much on having that kind of burst every 4 turns wrapped up in a buff. That takes a LOT out of what it could put into other skills but if that's moved then you end up with something different then how SW was intended.

Dragonman - As several people noticed last night making normal SW have a 5 hit multi at 30% damage each hit was below subpar and that's about what will happen when you have a multi that hits randomly. (All of the revamped older classes are losing that if they had it since it's just bad in practice) Since trying to code it to do different damage based on if there was 1 enemy or multiples would end up buggy in certain situations, just converting it into a one hit per each at 135% was the better choice.

I'll work with Verly to try and come up with a bug free version to use on CW and to see about giving it several Multi's like Vaal. It would fit more there since that's meant to be a ruthless class.



Dragonman -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 12:36:59)

Well that's a good enough compromise for me, thanks!



mahasamatman -> Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 13:28:54)

Ok, so we have this new& improved soulweaver... which is weaker than the old one.
instead of a super-multi that does 450%, it has a regular multi. the meditation is a bit more useful, and generally the non-DA side has improved (since there's no need to wait for the 'super' attack).
i have no idea how the new soulweaver buffs/debuffs work, but it seems they are just like the old ones except for their names, which give zero information about what they do.
oh, and banish creates some does-nothing debuff.
other than that, nothing seems different. overall, the lost of the overpowered multi is the greatest change.
EDIT: ok, multi was also changed in old SW, apperantly. and the debuffs seem powerful. i was wrong.

in addition, Aegis also seems to become weaker. just as with the MSW, the awesome 600% multi became a regular multi. ice domain seems to do slightly less damage, too.
the frozen serpent is an improvement, and so is the shield (that protects the PC too). the limit break is rarely useful, shatter was useless.
overall, the most powerful ability of old aegis (hailstorm) is now gone, and traded for other utility skills.

EDIT: erased some unrespectful thing i hgave said. i realize i was wrong about.. well, pretty much everything in this post. sorry.



Ash -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 13:40:01)

The multi on SW was changed as well. There is no way, in any shape or form, that that much damage on that short of a cool down was ok. Both SW and MSW now do a single hit on each enemy 135% on SW and 155% on MSW.

There is no "disguise" in improving anything. I fixed the broken skill and THEN I made updates. You aren't going to get to keep blatently broken attacks just because they let you stomp on things.

The skill breakdown is on page 3 of this thread. The skills are stronger than the old SW, including the multi change. Read that so you can understand what the skills now do compared to the old one.

Strong /=/ OP. You got by with an OP "multi" skill for months when you honestly shouldn't have. The only reason you GOT that much damage was because it was selecting a target randomly. Against a single opponent you were doing 425% damage. That shouldn't have been happening on anything but the Synch skill.

If all you want are skills that let you rofflestomp on every enemy and remove any kind of thought or game play from the game then you're looking at the wrong game. You aren't going to get OP skills on classes, you aren't going to just walk all over things, and you aren't going to constantly get broken classes and equipment anymore. Yes the game is based more on offense now but there is a point where strong stops and OP starts. You aren't going to be wandering into that realm anymore.



Vestrova -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 13:50:28)

its gettin too hot in this thread Dx @mahasamatman yo the new aegis may not have raw damage, but he is much more useful now with support skills! He can stun, shield YOU AND give you his mana when you need it. it's everything you could need in a buddy! Also, the banish debuff makes most monster not unable to hit you for two turns, with next to 0% chance of failure, whereas stunning can fail. STUNNING! the class has two stuns! how can you complain when this class puts out great damage while taking very little, considering. look at the class as a whole. ALSO! be more respectful towards the people who make an awesome game! how many game develepers actually ask your opinions on how you'd like your class? or update? or game? these guys work hard to make people happy and deserve respect and appreciation. xP



mahasamatman -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 13:58:30)

@ash: i dint realize the multi was changed also in original SW. good to know, since it was quite OP (but fun). im sorry if i seemed a bit focused on being OP, but i kinda like it. thats why im a RW. (please dont weaken RW).
also, i was wrong about the debuff thing. i guess i shouldn't write things without making a bit more serious research.
classes do seem to focus on long-ranged combat lately, with new SW and new necro. its not as useful for farming ,wars and just finishing things quickly, but its certainly better against some of the longer boss fights (crushinatrix with 10000 hp...)

@vestrova: right. sorry about that. i was writing without thinking.



Ash -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 14:05:20)

RiftWalker isn't getting changed. It's meant to focus on damage, and damage only, as it's just a warrior upgraded. SW, and MSW for that matter, lose damage on most skills to allow for all the effects. The 2 turn random stun alone lessens what attack power it could have had. If I were to strip off all but the most basic effects and rebalance it damage wise it would beat riftwalker, and pretty much compare to what CW will be. (CW gets a bonus to stuff and will have effects since it's going to be a DC class) The problem is if I stripped it down like that people would get upset that it's not a SW anymore and just a bland damage class.

*shrugs* There has to be a trade off at every point and sadly you trade direct attack power for effects 99% of the time.



Dragonman -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 14:08:25)

Oh new idea, you should Buff Synch but get rid of all the other attacks, including the attack button :P Make it be like 800% every 4 turns, but no damage for the 3 in the middle :P.

Actually that'd be kinda fun to do if the attack was just a skip button. It'd probably have to be for a temp armor in one quest.



Ash -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 14:16:26)

That would equal out to about 2642% damage every 4 turns, not 800%. (That's higher than the per hit non DR cap you hit when you play as Vaal. The 1300 damage limit, 2600 on crits.) Since you have to factor in losing the ability to stun, buff your damage, multi hit, nerf your opponent with -All, etc, all while having to "skip" 3 turns worth of damage. You basically collapse the entire skill bar into one skill. It'd most assuredly have to be on a temp armor that you never get to use outside of a specific quest.



Dragonman -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 14:18:03)

I don't really know why I said probably. I meant definitely...

Words are failing me today...



mahasamatman -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 14:19:37)

@ash: what is CW? i don't recall seeing any class with these acronyms.
EDIT: oh right, chaosweaver.

yes, obviously the point is trading power for effects. except with DL, who has quite a lot of both. and techno, which is quite powerful and with many effects. and DMK, of course. and non-RW atealan classes.
but it is natural that some classes are stronger than others.

dragonman: ....REALLY?



Dragonman -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 14:25:15)

Yes Mahasamatman, I think it'd be hilarious to wait a couple turns and then explode and do 8X the amount of normal... on say, a sneevil.

Turn one, no damage, turn two, nothing, turn 3, nothing, turn 4 KABOOM 8X Damage and it's dead!

We're starting to Hijak the thread with this, so I'm going to stop talking about it in the thread. Anyone can PM me and laugh with me if they want :P



Ash -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 14:31:57)

Chaos Weaver. The DC class that'll be out sometime in the future when Tomix has time to do all the art and Verly and I get it coded.

Mainly it's the variety of effects that reflect how much power it loses. A DoT, like 3 of DL's attacks have, cost less and can do more, especially when they are element locked. Same goes for an ele locked Multi skill. Defensive classes also gain more that they can spend on defense while still getting a tad bit of attack power. DL's attack like in Heart, which requires a DoT to unlock, Soul, which requires you to be below 30% health, and Eye which is the one "crit" skill it has, cost less because they are either locked or are the "expected" burst skills every class gets. The crit skill in this case. Its double hit is random between 1 and 2 hits and its 3 hit is locked behind that.

Techno loses a lot of power because it's so spread out being a hybrid and only being a tier 2. It has no true full power skills as they are all effect based and suffer for that. It's most outrageous skills are DeBug and Mana Grenades and both of those are pretty much where its true "usefulness" ends in terms of being unique. It doesn't even have a full 3 turn stun. It has a 2 turn and a 10% chance for a 1 turn to all enemies. It needs a few tweaks to make it a true "hybrid" class that is useful for anything beyond mana destruction and first turn burst.

SW and MSW out power both of them in almost every regard damage wise. The only thing that they are missing is a health regen and that's not really what the SW skillset it meant to have.



BhaalSpawn4 -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 14:40:02)

Let's see if I'm getting this right:

You took an armor that was very good at doing one thing (killing a single enemy with Banishment) and took away its ability to do that thing...for what? Quality of life changes?

I'm not exaggerating, either. You can't do long quests with the armor because the mana costs are incredibly high, and fights against multiple mobs take forever. The armor can't innately boss and it encourages you to carry around multiple weapons or fumble awkwardly with invisible buttons.

The Weaver armors weren't particularly exciting to use before (because of the mana issue) but now that Banishment is gone they really have nothing to recommend them...especially since you have armors who can do the exact same thing (high burst damage) but they get to keep all of their toys. Some don't even need setup.



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 14:43:06)

imo the new sw is actually a bit too strong. it has many strong defensive skills while also having even more dmg. if math says that its in the right place, then its ok.



Vestrova -> RE: =DF= SoulWeaver (All versions) Discussion Thread (8/2/2014 14:47:04)

im goin through the entire original ravenloss questline for nostolgia's sake while im testing MSW and the long questline isnt that much of a problem, you dont get hit often. i do have a high wisdom build though, beause i picked stats with soulweaver and riftwalker in mind. so i guess it works best with certain stat builds.



Ash -> RE: Stronger becoming weaker (8/2/2014 14:48:06)

BhaalSpawn4

Yes...because that was my entire plan...to ruin an armor by getting rid of the one blatantly OP skill that shouldn't have been there in the first place. Curses! Foiled again!

If that was the only reason people used it, because broken skill robblestomps, then that's an entirely separate issue. I have not heard one person speak up and go, "Hey Ash. Since you're making adjustments can you see about lowering SW's MP costs since Necro got changed and its weren't that high?" The only reason I made any changes to the original SW was to fix the blatantly broken skill. I then just based the mana costs off of the upgrades it got for MSW. It was the first 9.0 class and had MP costs to match. If you want I can go back and re-assess the MP costs and make a few edits to them on both SW and MSW. The only issue with that though is Synch will be gaining between 10 and 20 MP at a minimum for the buff+4 turn turnaround on damage. If you all are fine with that I'll go redo both classes MP spending.

Next time instead of trying to make it seem like I'm out to ruin the game, make a point about stating what the issue is in a way that doesn't sound like, "You suck for doing this Ash." "Hey can you check on why the MP costs are STILL so high for MSW and SW?" would have been a better choice.



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